Questions about Shy Submissives

[NCShin]

Hey all, I'm hoping that some of you would be willing to help me out with some questions I have.

I'm new to posting, but not really new to the boards. If you're interested you can see my introduction here: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209815

Well I have somewhat of a dilemma, one that I can't know how to proceed. So here I am looking for advice. Here is the situation.

When I was in the military, stationed in Japan I met this girl whom I dated for a few months. I was aware of some of my kinks at the time, but not as aware as I am now.

We've kept in touch over the years and she comes to the US to visit a few times each year.

I've always known that she enjoys sex in places where it's possible to be seen (tho not in plain sight) I've always known she likes to be bound lightly. Her wrists/arms is what I've done up until now.

The problem has always been the fact that she is incredibly shy. She for the most part flatly refuses to say what she wants, what she's willing to try, or what she's not willing to try. On her last visit in August I finally got her to verbalize that she was submissive. (I knew this, it just took that long for her to be able to say it)

During that visit we also did a few other things that were fairly large steps for her. (in my opinion) Other than admitting that she was submissive, she also said that she liked embarrassment. She also at one point told me to slap her pussy.

Last bit of background.

When she visits here, the first time we go to bed (of course i want to jump her bones) she often resists. I've always kind of thought that it was just that we were apart for a long while and she needed some adjustment time. On her last visit she told me that the real reason was that she had a rape fantasy. (I translate that to more of more forceful sex more than actual rape)

OK, so now that you have some background information, here are my questions, concerns.

First, I think that most anyone here can agree how important communication is in a BDSM environment. When the submissive is unwilling or unable to communicate her likes and dislikes, limits and needs, how can a dominant take things to a next level with so little information?

Next, when any little insight into what the submissive likes, is such a huge step that I feel almost obligated to honor the request, how is it possible to remain dominant at the same time?

Since I do want to progress with her, how fast and how far should I go? How do you know with so little feedback?

If it will help or if it's relevant I'll post some things I am planning when she gets here next week. Otherwise, I'll sit back for a bit and see what you all have to say.

Thanks

 

[ghosst_K&H]

have her type out her thoughts on an online journal, one you have access to, or have her write short stories. this should give you her basic wants, and needs.

welcome to the fourm, and good luck with your pet

 

[ownedsubgal]

some may not believe it, but irl i am an extremely EXTREMELY, painfully shy person. this has at times made it very difficult for my Master to know what areas to push/explore with me because it's difficult for me to express thoughts/feelings/desires i have dealing with self. one thing that has worked for us and may be a good suggestion for you with this new relationship as well, is to have her show you stories (whether erotic fiction, or real life stories straight from the news headlines) that interest her or arouse her in some way. she can just email you these stories, without commenting on them if she isn't comfy with that, and from the sorts of stories she picks that can give you a bit of an idea of her own interests and desires. also just being physical with a person, when you have the opportunity to do so, can help a very shy person open up. take a chance and do a few things that maybe you haven't discussed before, and watch her reactions carefully. she may just be the kind of submissive to NEVER be comfy with just coming right out and stating needs or desires...i know i'm not. so try not to push it too much. the more time you spend together, the better you'll be able to gauge these things. and you'll cherish her shyness.

 

[NCShin]

the stories might be a good idea. I'm not sure she'd do it but it's worth a shot...

I might not have been totally clear on this. She is Japanese and lives in Japan. Her english is very good by Japanese standards, but pretty poor by american standards.

Thanks for the ideas so far. I'd love to see some more.

 

[Netzach]

some people are really into writing and some by nature are just more secretive.

I would train. Really, I mean this in the dumbest possible sense.

When she tells you what she likes you can reward the behavior. When she tells you what she dislikes, same. If she clams up....well no orgasm/movie ticket/going out of the house together till she spills her little secret, verbally or non-verbally.

See how she responds to this, keep it playful, but consistant. You'll garner loads of info whether she likes this hates it, or does poorly or well at it. Just watch, listen, observe.

 

[NCShin]

some people are really into writing and some by nature are just more secretive.

I would train. Really, I mean this in the dumbest possible sense.

When she tells you what she likes you can reward the behavior. When she tells you what she dislikes, same. If she clams up....well no orgasm/movie ticket/going out of the house together till she spills her little secret, verbally or non-verbally.

See how she responds to this, keep it playful, but consistant. You'll garner loads of info whether she likes this hates it, or does poorly or well at it. Just watch, listen, observe.

The problem this poses is that she lives in japan and i live in the US. So training, though something I'd love to do isn't too effective simply due to locations. She usually only is here for a week or 2 at a time. This is as little as once per year and as much as 3-4 times per year.

As far as writing, I'm not sure she'd follow through. For a few reasons. One that she works 2 jobs, the second mostly to save t ocome to the US, second because of her poor grammer and spelling she may be unwilling.

I'll see if i can get her to do something along the lines of a private blog or something just to see her willingness.

Thanks for the input.

 

[enigma nocturne]

I fall under the shy submissive for whom English is not my first language area too. I am very conscious of my spelling and grammar arrors, and I always end up proofreading myself two or three or seventeen times.. And then I still miss stuff.

I would reccomend journaling for her, too. Remind her that this is for your eyes only, and you are aware of the language problem. You are not going to get out the big red pen and correct it are you? This is also a time honoured way of training for long distance and cyber Ds relationships. I have seen mentions of this here as well as on other websites. I am hoping that I am not stepping on anyone's toes but you can probably find some mention in it in the Library here.

I also had problems verbalising my desires for the longest time. It is a big help to me that I am part of a close knit group of kinksters. We make allowances for each other, and I think that may be part of the problem. We are together so much that we are very comfortable with each other, and this may be part of your problem. When you see or talk to each other every day your comfort level rises and it is easier to talk about our darker desires. I know that transcon phone bills are prohibitive BUT you may want to set aside once a week to talk to each other. Make it a point to talk about your sexual needs at least once in a conversation. This will help make it easier for you.

Good luck with your lady friend.

 

[Krinaia]

With my first play pal, I kept a journal. It was a great way to open myself up and to force myself to be truthful about what I needed, what turned me on, and why it turned me on.


I assume she didn't respond when you sat her down and talked to her? Told her how you feel. Everything you said in that first post. I mean, sometimes a good sit down talk is really the way to go. I don't know how many times all I needed was a little silence to figure out what I needed to say and the feeling of someone waiting, in a comforting or even stern manner - well it pushed me to confront what was inside. Giver her time, don't press her, but also, don't let her get up until she says what needs to be said.

 

[slvjenn]

.

 

[Bachlum Chaam]

Welcome to coming out from the shadows NCShin, the lady Netzach had some good ideas which even if over the net when she is home could be workable with thought, the journal is a great idea, that is my own personal favourite to learn anything.

Do you talk over a messenger service ie MSN or other in the meantime or is it e-mail only?

 

[lark sparrow]

Can you push with some sensitivity? lol

If you can, you will probably both be more fulfilled. I have been at this stage, and an aggressive desire with awareness of how it effects the one you direct it at will go far, if it is a similar case. Do you feel when she can pushed a bit more and desires... pushing past just a bit more than where she thinks she wants to go and then backing off somewhat and letting the desire overcome?

If she is submissive and shy, she may not jump your bones from a few kisses, caresses and sweet words... control may have to enter into the scene...but again, I would highly recommend NOT pushing all boundaries ruthlessly in the immediate future... make her want it.

 

[NCShin]

Welcome to coming out from the shadows NCShin, the lady Netzach had some good ideas which even if over the net when she is home could be workable with thought, the journal is a great idea, that is my own personal favourite to learn anything.

Do you talk over a messenger service ie MSN or other in the meantime or is it e-mail only?

We talk on AIM almost daily, but for mostly pretty short periods of time. She's getting home and making dinner as I'm getting ready for work. She's getting up and getting ready for work as I get home. Weekends one of us can usually stay up late enough to actually have a longer conversation.

Lark Sparrow,

Yes I agree to an extent, but I also think that part of her submission is that she wants to be "taken" and pushed.

Usually once I begin something new, after a few minutes she is asking for more. But she'd have never asked for that to begin with and never had been willing to admit she even wanted that if I had asked her before hand.

I honestly think she is willing and even eager to go wherever I want to take her. It is just that *I* have a hard time doing that without her giving that innitial verbal concent to do so.

I thank you all.

 

[Satin Kitty 69]

How are things going NCShin?

 

[thickspear]

well...

 

[NCShin]

How are things going NCShin?

Well, her last visit was extremely short. Just the thanksgiving weekend.

I have another thread around here someplace that tells some of what we did.

MY basic belief is that she is not really into BDSM per se. Maybe because she has just never heard of it I'm not sure. Let me try to explain.

She is Japanese, born and raised. She is the youngest child with 15 years separating her (she is 32) from the oldest sibling. I bring this up because I think she has been taught a more traditional Japanese way of thinking than many more modern Japanese.

I think to even understand her a little bit you really need a pretty good understanding of Japanese society. I lived there for 3.5 years and trust me, it is complex and sometimes confusing to Americans.

I'll give you an example of typical Japanese behavior. While living there, after dating a woman for about 1 year in Tokyo we went back to her home town of Fukuoka to visit her family. While there I decided to do laundry instead of bringing home dirty clothes. Her mother saw me doing said laundry and began to scold her 25ish year old daughter.

An argument commenced, all in Japanese of course so I could only catch general ideas but afterwards I was told that the argument centered around my girlfriend being lazy. Her mother told her that she was dating an American because American men do everything for themselves and she doesn't have to do anything. There had already been smaller arguments because my girlfriend didn't refill my beverage when it reached 1/4 full. The mother refilled my drink instead as she had likely done for years before her husband died. (this was quite awkward for me and my girlfriend. She had started the relationship doing this and we decided that I'd rather refill my own glass. We couldn't tell her mother this though as it would embarrass her, and that would be bad in any society, but saving face in japan is VERY important.)

I tell you this to give a small view into how things are "traditionally" in Japan.

I think that Japanese women are from the moment of birth brought up to be submissive to their men.

I think this was exemplified when I asked her if it was OK to try the Japanese rope bondage on her. I showed her some of the pictures on a website so she knew exactly what I was talking about. I then asked her if it was ok for me to try it on her. (this was my first time trying this type of bondage with anyone)

Her reply was only that she couldn't make that decision. This meant she was leaving it up to me. She didn't want to give approval, she wanted me to decide if we were going to do it and then just do it.

Me, I want to hear verbally that it's OK to do something. Really, I want to hear it for anything no matter how vanilla it might be. But I especially want to hear the verbal approval before doing something BDSM related. I don't want any misunderstanding and any possibility of backlash later. So, this is something that has been a bit difficult for me, not being able to get verbal consent from her. I think this stemmed from being in the military overseas where we were told of women (in mostly third world countries) who would seek monitory damages against Americans after having consensual sex and then later calling it rape. Now I think that it plays well into BDSM where I really like to hear the submissive say what she wants. Admitting out loud that she wants to be tied up for example.

This is already a long post. I'll stop it here even though I could very well just continue. (maybe I will in another post)

Thanks for asking, it has helped to just kind of type this out and have to analyze it for myself.

 

[Satin Kitty 69]

Well, her last visit was extremely short. Just the thanksgiving weekend.

I have another thread around here someplace that tells some of what we did.

MY basic belief is that she is not really into BDSM per se. Maybe because she has just never heard of it I'm not sure. Let me try to explain.

She is Japanese, born and raised. She is the youngest child with 15 years separating her (she is 32) from the oldest sibling. I bring this up because I think she has been taught a more traditional Japanese way of thinking than many more modern Japanese.

.........(cut)

This is already a long post. I'll stop it here even though I could very well just continue. (maybe I will in another post)

Thanks for asking, it has helped to just kind of type this out and have to analyze it for myself.

Thank you for sharing. I hope that you continue when ever you feel comfortable or in need just reflecting.

I am somewhat aware of Japanese culture, but more aware of the trained submissiveness that exists in many cultures. Other Asian and South East Asian cultures, some african cultures, some middle eastern cultures, and even in North America. I grew up in a family where while it was somewhat acceptable for omen to work after they are married, there is still the pressure to be the perfect mother and wife and to obey, to have dinner ready, to not criticize or contradict the father or husband. It is hard for me to fight the ingrained upbringing which I find limits and doesn't fit who I am. With an approaching wedding the issues of what I "should" do and "should not" do become more prominent and when I see my family I am further reminded.

I do not know how she feels about her upbringing, but no matter if she agrees or disagrees with it, the training & accompanying guilt will likely be the strongest when she is with them and is reminded (as it was with the other woman).

Let me know how things go, if you want to share.

 

[echoes_s]

I am also extremely shy

...being new to openess in sex and also BDSM. My Master and Mistress have tried to get me to vocalize what I like, which has been hard for me because most I dont know, and what I do...I find embarrassing to come out and say. So they met and started training a second submissive who is not shy at all, very agressive as a matter of fact..but this seems to have only worsened things for me, for now I no longer need to try at all, say nothing and get to watch what happens. I no longer have a desire to visit and the same is being recipricated towards me. Invitations are becoming less and less to the point I barely see them now. In short, I wouldnt recommend bringing in a second submissive for or as an example...but then I am not very experienced and only voicing from my own experience.

 

[NCShin]

Re: I am also extremely shy

...being new to openess in sex and also BDSM. My Master and Mistress have tried to get me to vocalize what I like, which has been hard for me because most I dont know, and what I do...I find embarrassing to come out and say. So they met and started training a second submissive who is not shy at all, very agressive as a matter of fact..but this seems to have only worsened things for me, for now I no longer need to try at all, say nothing and get to watch what happens. I no longer have a desire to visit and the same is being recipricated towards me. Invitations are becoming less and less to the point I barely see them now. In short, I wouldnt recommend bringing in a second submissive for or as an example...but then I am not very experienced and only voicing from my own experience.

yours sound like an entirely different situation.

Firstly, you sounds like you are with your dom/domme for one thing and one thing only. That being BDSM. At least from what you posted, there was no relationship beyond that.

The relationship I am in while an extremely Long Distance one, is a relationship first and a BDSM partnership second.

 

[Bandit58]

I am shy, always have been. I left my husband last year and since then have been exploring my sexuality, which includes being bi. When I started out I had done practically nothing beyond the standard missionary stuff, more nilla than nilla

Since then I've learned how to give blow jobs, done anal (only 3 times so far) and been with a woman once (in a FFM 3 some). My Master is my 5th male sexual partner including my husband. I have just spent 3 weeks with Him in Australia and will be moving back to live with Him permanently as soon as I can. He is working on my shyness.....we watched pornos together (I'd never seen one before) and He got me to masturbate in front of Him. We went to a sex shop (I'd never been to one of those either) and we walked around with me being totally gobsmacked at the range of toys. Hopefully I'll be able to go in there without blushing one day In fact before we got together the only toy I'd seen in r/l was a standard vibe that I bought online after I left my ex.....

I doubt whether I'll completely get over the shyness, it's part of my submissiveness. I am still sexually inexperienced compared to most people my age (45). Master is enjoying opening my eyes to new pleasures and I'm enjoying my new role as His sub, and I'm learning so much it is overwhelming sometimes but I'm so very happy

 

[ethereal~minx]

...Her reply was only that she couldn't make that decision. This meant she was leaving it up to me. She didn't want to give approval, she wanted me to decide if we were going to do it and then just do it. ...

the only time I've behaved like this is when I totally believed in the other's concern for my well-being~~~ I would feel unnatural answering this question because it really isn't up to me, it's up to you~~~ You have my trust, my heart and I believe and will agree to whatever you want with me---
if I am uncomfortable with what you do with me, you would know by your reading of me~~
and if you didn't, I am responsible enough to speak if it came to that point.
perhaps that puts alot of expectation on the other party, but that to me is what I think D/s is all about...