Questions About A Potential Submission & Feedback

[NikkiBastion]

I'm not quite sure how to go about this but the question - for now - is story feedback all the same.

I wrote this awhile ago but I don't know where I put it so will try it here and make a note of it this time (or subscribe to the thread, since duh!)

Background: a couple years ago when I ventured into the whole arena of writing erotica/porn, I had to overcome that hurdle of being able to write it with a straight non crimson face. Last year, though I'd heard of it long before, I 're-found' Literotica and spent a ton of time reading through the forums, checking out some really awesome work, and growing more inspired to just jump in and give it a shot. I don't recall whether it's this forum or one other one (sex stories online I think it was called, but could've sworn I read it here), someone offered what I found to be incredibly helpful advice on how to write or get used to writing the actual dirty stuff. The suggestion had been as an exercise to get over yourself, basically, and go with it - to pick a topic that's not actually something that turns you on, something you're not into, and then write that story and make it hot, make it sexy...and if you can pull it off, you won't have anymore trouble writing the sex in stuff that's actually appealing.

So, I did that and chose 2 areas that always creeped me out. One isn't actually considered deviant and perverted (age difference, older man/younger woman) but as a topic for another day, I have a personal creep factor about older guys than myself and have always reacted to the idea of it as if it was as bad as bestiality. Don't know where it comes from and don't take time to psychoanalyze it since it's easier to just never go there. I call it my "old guy phobia" and leave it at that...and go on about my business hooking up with hot younger guys and it's been fine. The other one though is incest, nothing that appeals to me at all, no hidden fetish or kink in all that. It's a topic that tends to make me wince and shiver.

I came up with a short 5 chapter story that could be longer since I added a few things that need to be addressed, but found a good "cliffhanger" style drop off after 5 chapters. It spans 43 pages (in open office anyway) and 20433 words.

The gist of it is that an older 63 y/o, overweight, flabby and pathetic attorney hires a beautiful younger (33 y/o) woman as his personal assistant and is astonished to find that she seems to adore him and perfectly willing to indulge his every fantasy...so he falls for it...and then discovers that she is his daughter, who'd spent her whole life on a mission to find him, be with him, please him.

There is one area though that I am unsure about that spawned my question previously and that is a plot moving scene or reveal, basically, where she is flashbacking an event that took place between them when she was 14, that gets right up to the edge, skirting the line, but is not designed to be titillating - it's a specific scenario that is proving to him she's not a con, so he'd remember it. My concern is how much is too much? It doesn't bother me, personally I see no real issue with it but I honestly do not know whether it's okay to print or against rules and guidelines, or worse, considered "child porn" or some shit and I'm not trying to go there.

The reality of this character is in spite of knowing better, he did slip a couple times and indulge himself but it's as an acknowledgment itself, it's not so much a descriptive sex scene. There is one particular portion of her own reveal about the previous encounter that because I'd already written that she was 14 when it happened, and she is the one who actually initiated the encounter, I didn't describe the sexual encounter but only up to the part she initiated it at all, then it's interrupted anyway. That's the area I'm iffy on as far as guidelines and such.

Since it was an exercise and not some cherished thing I did, I'm totally fine sacrificing it, as much as sharing it for feedback on all the other criteria outside this one single "iffy" area. I think I did a pretty cool job on it under the circumstances but would like objective feedback on it, and instead of getting chewed out about the particular area, leave it in so someone can have a look at it as it is and let me know whether it's acceptable (as per rules, not morality) or if it should be changed and if so, as far as the overall scene, what may be suggested.

As for the age, the reason the age is mentioned at all (14) was to provide a foundation for the timeline of events, and not in context of having sex with 14 y/os for sexual thrills. Again, it's flashback and she's pointing him to the time this encounter took place, when she was 14, and that's about all it amounts to. Then they move on with the rest of the reveal, and he acknowledges the encounter he'd had with her mother (also 14 at the time cause he has a problem he's aware of and ashamed of to a point - he does know better). Even this scenario encounter wasn't detailed, it was an acknowledgment and general thing. The most detailed I got with it is this iffy area she's relating in flashback...

Could I go ahead and submit it, or could I pass it to someone who could check it out as per the guidelines and see if it's okay or not in that respect first?

Don't mind leading with this one, and while I think I did pretty well on it, I'd genuinely appreciate the feedback on style, flow, premise, keeping attention, etc. all the criteria you guys tend to run with so if there's some problem with the writing itself, and it's pointed out, I can have something useful to work with in more precious work so I don't fuck that up out of the gate

If I went ahead and submitted it and it got nixed, would whoever nixed it let me know specific grounds for it, and if that was or wasn't the 'offending' area?


Advice?

Thanks!

 

[PennLady]

Okay, first off, Lit has two hard-and-fast rules: no underage sex and no bestiality.

If you submit a story and it is rejected, you can click on the "rejected" link (which previously said "pending") and see what the reason is. It could be content, or it could be punctuation, or any number of things.

The older man/younger woman thing is fine, as is the incest bit. The part where she's 14yo, and apparently engaging in sexual situations, sounds like it would get your story rejected. I know I haven't read it, so I'm not saying definitely, but it sure sounds likely.

 

[estragon]

Nikki, SA PennLady got it right, as usual. Underage (minus 18) is a no-fly, period, end of sentence. You'll find any number of postings here suggesting how to game the system, but my experience is that you have to get up very early in the morning to outwit the bots and the editors on Lit. I hasten to add I have not tried gaming the system since my one effort, months ago, was ignominiously blasted out of the sky. Served me right.

 

[MrMax59]

It seems, without reading and seeing how you structured it, that you could replace any even distantly sexual "proof" of knowing the other with something completely non-sexual to avoid the issue completely. While the event sounds central to the story, I'd hope you could make the details non-sexual.

 

[NikkiBastion]

Thanks

Well, given the plot itself and the conflict for the girl, specifying a previous encounter as a point of reference is integral, though I specified the age as 14. The age of 14 per se isn't written in stone but any older would cause a conflict with a later, of age encounter in which she's not recognized. We tend to change a lot from the teen years into later years and that was my reasoning for it more than necessarily a sex scene at this age. I needed her to be young enough that off a single "childhood" incident she wouldn't be recognized nearly 20 years later.

The girl seeks him out as an adult, so in order to make sure he realizes she's not a con or it's a joke or set up, (implied, it's not pointed out) she tells him about a series of events in her younger life that is to justify something she'd told him recently (he lifelong fantasy, basically). She knows she's his daughter, he has no idea - just assumes this girl is into him and is warped as he is. This is what she's attempting to overcome and reveal there's more to the encounter than she let on. So she tells the story and gets to the specific encounter, which in and of itself isn't sexual; it's a lot more naivete - but she goes on to detail the set up and her perception at the time and her justification, and initiating it but it's at that moment the whole thing is interrupted anyway (so I could get out of it )

That's a specific and single incident that makes him realize it's on the level, he recalls the incident and fills in the blanks from his point of view, leading to that encounter and how and why he responded as he had and then jumps over any kind of detail to acknowledge it at all.

My iffy area was that I'd invisioned a scenario where he's in the chair (babysitting, basically), has no clue she's his own, thinks she's his niece...just watching her fold up a towel and tells her she's pretty, etc. Once she realizes she has his attention, she's elated by it (she's a little nuts anyway and misunderstanding her own daddy issues), gets up in his lap - all harmless except for the part she'd caught a peek up his swim trunks and that kinda of took over, fusing, blurring the line for her, so in her naive zeal to have her father back, she initiates a sexual advance and he's reluctant but cracks, makes a suggestion and as she's moving to do so, the rest of the family walks in. I didn't detail the above, just acknowledge it happened as she points to it and he comes back and cleans it up with the rest of the story and what happened after all that, which was the actual point of their conversation and why she was there at all.

That's where I'm unsure how it would be "judged" I guess.

As for specifying her age as 14, I suppose I could wiggle around it since originally, starting out, I have her acknowledge she's 33 y/o...so I could, instead of "when I was 14" go with something like 19 years ago, or in 1992...and in a related conversation when he is acknowledging that he'd had an encounter with her (also 14yo) mother previously (because he has a problem, which is something that fueled the entire encounter itself so it's kind of integral, yes), I also referenced her age when the girl was 14, so I could skip an outright notation of age and go with x number of years ago or since - which would at least leave it to the reader to work out the math if they're interested enough to bother.

Thoughts?

 

[PennLady]

The important thing: you cannot have an explicit description of a sexual act involving someone under 18 in your story. That's it. You can have something general: "She lost her virginity to him while still a teenager," or something along those lines, but just do not get specific about what happened sexually. You have lots reasons and justifications, and that's fine, but this isn't about context, it's about the rules and the rules say no underage sex.

 

[NikkiBastion]

Understood. I did know not to detail a specific or explicit sexual encounter, so I'm safe there. And her getting up in his lap wasn't in a sexual manner but general happiness and affection. Gray area: in the process of that she acknowledges she saw his business slightly and unintentionally peeking out of the swim trunks which had her deciding the best way to have her father take her away so she could have him back would be to please him. As sexual as it got was that she moved to the floor "about" to attempt something (fellatio) and that moment it's interrupted...so it's presented more in a "compromising position" with a potential for it to go there, but doesn't get there - which is also the basis for her lifelong, unrequited need to find him and pursue that agenda.

Then it goes elsewhere and deals with that. He later acknowledges it and something he'd said to her at the time and then goes on to talk about the aftermath of that encounter in his own life.

Again, I don't have a huge issue rewriting it if necessary or scrapping it, but I would like to know how it would fare in its original form for the record because that'd be a solid guideline and boundary I can point to, clear up the iffy gray area, not that I'll probably ever write another one on this topic anyway but I do like this story and can either finish it or add to it later. I did my best to make them creepy as all hell but actually likable in spite of it...

...they mean well, they're just a little....off

 

[sr71plt]

Understood. I did know not to detail a specific or explicit sexual encounter, so I'm safe there. And her getting up in his lap wasn't in a sexual manner but general happiness and affection.

You'd have to take your chances on that--and maybe have to go a few rounds with the editor after the computer bot initially rejected it. The computer bot doesn't do nuance or analytic reasoning.

 

[NikkiBastion]

How the hell would a bot know whether it's crossing a line?

 

[sr71plt]

How the hell would a bot know whether it's crossing a line?

Think, Nikki. It wouldn't. That's the point. You are (subjectively) defining--and arguing--a line in your post. The whole point is that the bot won't do that. It's got its own line. As folks have frequently posted here, that line is quite stringent. It doesn't cogitate on the subtilities that you use in discussing where a line is. It chops right at the edge of its own line. Chop, chop. Reject.

 

[NikkiBastion]

Do you happen to know what the criteria is the bot uses? I'd hate to think I wrote a really awesome something or another and start out with "I was 12 years old when we went to Disney World, fuck me, that was a fun day!" and get banned as a pedo writer

 

[PennLady]

Do you happen to know what the criteria is the bot uses? I'd hate to think I wrote a really awesome something or another and start out with "I was 12 years old when we went to Disney World, fuck me, that was a fun day!" and get banned as a pedo writer

I don't think anyone knows the exact criteria, and that's probably as it should be. I've always guessed that there are certain words and/or phrases that raise red flags and the bot will reject them. If you want the story to go to a person for review, put a note of explanation in the notes field when you submit, and tell them about potential problems.

SR's right, a bot isn't going to analyze. It's going to look at a story and say, "ABC phrase" is not allowed, and then reject your story (very oversimplified, of course).

 

[NikkiBastion]

Good to know, thanks! I guess I was assuming that the bot was the gauntlet and if it didn't get through there, then no person would read it, which kind of sucks.

Well, no, it definitely sucks.

I would like to submit the one referenced above but I think I'm still at the place of having it reviewed before it's reviewed as a submission, if that makes sense!

Do yall do reviews for reviews here? hah. ehh.

 

[sr71plt]

Good to know, thanks! I guess I was assuming that the bot was the gauntlet and if it didn't get through there, then no person would read it, which kind of sucks.

Yes, as a matter of fact, if it doesn't make it through the bot, that's it for that submission. If you want to have the human editor review it, you need to either put your discussion on what might be a problem and why it's not in the notes section the first time you submit it--or do the same thing in a resubmission if at first rejected.

 

[NikkiBastion]

Update

Okay, so as not to just run it in the ground unnecessarily, I found a happy medium that I am at least 95% confident won't get rejected on the above iffy grounds. I changed the wording up some, tidied things up, proofed it a couple more times and decided on an ending rather than cliffhanger thing. I have 2 other endings in mind for it too but not sure how to work that out It's now 6 chapters in all, 21899 words (in open office).

I joined the forum outright - my question is, is this my registration that's required for submissions or is it two different things?

Any last minute advice before I throw myself to the wolves?

here's a flower!

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Update

Okay, so as not to just run it in the ground unnecessarily, I found a happy medium that I am at least 95% confident won't get rejected on the above iffy grounds. I have 2 other endings in mind for it too but not sure how to work that out It's now 6 chapters in all, 21899 words (in open office).

I joined the forum outright - my question is, is this my registration that's required for submissions or is it two different things?

Any last minute advice before I throw myself to the wolves?

There is no difference. You are a member of Lit and your username and password will work to open your submissions page.

PennLady gives good advice but I don't see the problem in defining what is acceptable to Lit. They set their age of consent at 18 and any description of erotic encounter under that age is not allowed to be described (including fantasies). A relationship between a 14-year-old girl and a much older man is hellish difficult to handle; especially if you introduce a hint of incest.

There are a lot of stories on Lit that talk about feelings and emotions of under-18 characters but none where it becomes a 'scene'. Your mention of laps and uncles would, I think, ring alarm bells.

 

[lovecraft68]

There is no difference. You are a member of Lit and your username and password will work to open your submissions page.

PennLady gives good advice but I don't see the problem in defining what is acceptable to Lit. They set their age of consent at 18 and any description of erotic encounter under that age is not allowed to be described (including fantasies). A relationship between a 14-year-old girl and a much older man is hellish difficult to handle; especially if you introduce a hint of incest.

There are a lot of stories on Lit that talk about feelings and emotions of under-18 characters but none where it becomes a 'scene'. Your mention of laps and uncles would, I think, ring alarm bells.

I disagree. there are tons of scenes on this ite that occur below 18 the author is just clever enought to misdirect the bot, and the readers either aren't following themselves or most likely don't care.

There are "no under age scenes" on this site like there are no "rape scenes" on this site. The system is easily manipulated for those with some daring and an above 20 IQ.

 

[NikkiBastion]

The scene is more of a compromising position with the intention provided but nothing actually happens.

If they don't, it's not a huge ordeal. I made a final edit and just posted on my site for free. Since the site's not quite new, but everything was scrapped at the beginning of Jan to start fresh, it's all pretty slow at the moment so I have time to tweak things or play around with it while I develop new content...so it's not overrun with visitors just yet. I'm happy with the way it all turned out and think it's a nice little read.

We'll see what they do.

Down side is I proofed it yet again and found 4 screwy typos so I hope all the first 3 versions get canned so I can try the final one! I'm scared to upload another "EDIT" - they'll just throw stuff at me next.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Lovecraft, like many, you read young love and metarmophose that into sweaty sex. Lit has no problem with Junior High romance but draws the line at getting 'down and dirty'.

Lolita is often quoted, but sex never took place. Erotica can look back without breaking the rules - Lit demands no contact under 18 - easy.

 

[sr71plt]

You didn't get it, Elfin (as usual). You posted that there isn't any underage sex in stories posted to Literotica. (Probably not what you meant, but it's what you posted). Lovecraft pointed out the obvious. Yes, there are stories posted to Literotica that contain underage sex scenes. Such stories have crept in through the cracks. I don't have the vaguest notion why you think your last post was an answer to his obviously correct observation.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I accept I posted a hurried reply but still think there is a degree of misunderstanding about how Lit enforces the under-18 rule.

Yes, quite a few underage sex stories creep under the radar - that's only to be expected - but romance, hand-holding, even skinny dipping don't seem to be a problem as long as the physical act taboo is not broken. The 'I lusted after my sexy teacher in tenth grade' gets through because it's non-physical.

Nikki didn't give enough details of the encounter she wanted to write about, but if it is all in the head - as fantasy and romance,- without dreaming of rubbing sweaty parts, Lit seems to be pretty OK with it.

I think you have to look at the video laws to analyze Lit's position.

 

[lovecraft68]

Lovecraft, like many, you read young love and metarmophose that into sweaty sex. Lit has no problem with Junior High romance but draws the line at getting 'down and dirty'.

Lolita is often quoted, but sex never took place. Erotica can look back without breaking the rules - Lit demands no contact under 18 - easy.

Lit has a problem with an age being mentioned, period. The bot is a bot and it does not think. You say 15 year old chevy you might get bumped.

And go ahead and submit a story that says "when we were thirteen, we used to hold hands by the river" odds are you are getting tossed.

Now be clever and state the character is 18 then say "five years ago I sucked off my next door neighbor" Gets through every time and the reader now knows this girl was 13 giving a BJ.

The system is easily manipulated leaving the "last line of defense" readers or other authors to report it if they see it. And from the amount I have seen and how old they are, either no one cares or they report it and the site doesn't care either.

there was an E/H contest entry where the girl was 15 every public comment mentioned it as blatant underage and several complained. It was not removed until a year later when I had a bug up my ass and started a thread calling the site out for letting E/H N/H get away with anything.

In the end like most pious posers declaring a stance, they really don't care. It boils down to look, if you can slip it through fine, but if you're caught then we will feign indignation.

This mirrors Amazon's policy of not allowing "graphic sexual descriptions" but there are untold thousands of hardcore erotica books in the kindle store. They'll make money on them until called out then its "hey how did that get there.

 

[lovecraft68]

You didn't get it, Elfin (as usual). You posted that there isn't any underage sex in stories posted to Literotica. (Probably not what you meant, but it's what you posted). Lovecraft pointed out the obvious. Yes, there are stories posted to Literotica that contain underage sex scenes. Such stories have crept in through the cracks. I don't have the vaguest notion why you think your last post was an answer to his obviously correct observation.

Yes, thank you. Look no further then that disturbing child molesting piece in the "Thank you" thread started the other day. Can't be more obvious, but the author was smart enough to not throw out an age, just wrote it so we knew she was a very young girl.

and BTW I did report it. A fantasy erotica site is not the place for a child abuse story and it was blatant underage. I reported it 4 days ago, and I had someone else complain a day later. It is still there and I am willing to bet will remain.

 

[Darkniciad]

Yes, thank you. Look no further then that disturbing child molesting piece in the "Thank you" thread started the other day. Can't be more obvious, but the author was smart enough to not throw out an age, just wrote it so we knew she was a very young girl.

and BTW I did report it. A fantasy erotica site is not the place for a child abuse story and it was blatant underage. I reported it 4 days ago, and I had someone else complain a day later. It is still there and I am willing to bet will remain.

The "Report This Story" button seems to be malfunctioning.

Try reporting the story directly to Laurel via PM. It will come down as soon as she sees it.

Bug report sent to Manu to try to get this corrected.

 

[NikkiBastion]

Well, on this tale in question, for Lit submission purposes, I rewrote the potential area anyway to still keep the flow going but without getting too graphic about it.

The details of the scene in question are the two characters, 63M and 33F discussing her childhood incident with her father - the whole purpose of it was to have one of those erotic crystallization moments that affected her life from then on, and was a generally harmless scenario of having caught a glimpse of his penis through his swim shorts and finding herself overwhelmed with desire to see more. She gets up in his lap in a non sexual manner, exclaiming her happiness that he'd come back and would take her with him, and while I don't specify it, just allude to it, he later explains he recalled the incident and it was unintentional on his part, and he'd asked her to do something (non specified)...and she moved to the floor to oblige when the entire moment is interrupted. I didn't even offer the thing he asked her to do so you can read between the lines and it's non specific. It does later reference that question in the present state when she is pushing him to ask her what he asked her that day...and he does ask then, so you'd know what it was without actually going there.

It took some creative sidestepping, so when the flashback scene happens, as graphic as it gets is her acknowledging she got a peek and was pretty impacted by it, but the scene described is non sexual, though you can pretty much read into it what her intentions were. When it's current it's more explicit.

I understand the guidelines (least I think so by now!) and the goal here isn't so much to out maneuver it as it is to have the issue specified as a boundary and then in the future if I submit other things, I'll have that in mind.