Question for the teachers

[Rubyfruit]

How do you feel about integrated classrooms? Special ed with regular ed?

My son is in an integrated kindergarten class now, but I had to fight to get him in it and I've had to fight to keep him in it.

As a parent, I feel it is the best possible placement for my child.

Unfortunately, in my district, integrated classrooms start and stop at kindergarten. After that, it's either regular ed, or special ed.

How do you feel about mainstreaming? How has it effected your ability to teach?

I know that special ed kids are time-consuming. One of the things I did to keep my son in the integrated class was to fight the district for an extra classroom aid.

Aside from how difficult special ed children might make your day, do you think that mainstreaming is the best solution for borderline children?

I'd really be interested to hear your views.

I've been lucky so far. My son's teacher used to teach special ed and implimented the integrated program in our district. She's an amazing woman.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

In our school they used to miss the less important classes CE and PE to see the Special Ed teachers. (High school)

In primary school we always had integraded classes... the smarter ones helping out the less bright and those with particular difficulties the teacher gave more help to. Any major problems in these classes would still be caught the same way

(Ruby, I dunno what your kid has so its hard to work out how to say things here)

 

[Sir Alex 4 U]

How do you feel about integrated classrooms? Special ed with regular ed?

My son is in an integrated kindergarten class now, but I had to fight to get him in it and I've had to fight to keep him in it.

As a parent, I feel it is the best possible placement for my child.

Unfortunately, in my district, integrated classrooms start and stop at kindergarten. After that, it's either regular ed, or special ed.

How do you feel about mainstreaming? How has it effected your ability to teach?

I know that special ed kids are time-consuming. One of the things I did to keep my son in the integrated class was to fight the district for an extra classroom aid.

Aside from how difficult special ed children might make your day, do you think that mainstreaming is the best solution for borderline children?

I'd really be interested to hear your views.

I've been lucky so far. My son's teacher used to teach special ed and implimented the integrated program in our district. She's an amazing woman.

As an EX teacher I feel that borderline children work out pretty well. As long as the teacher is very experienced. From my own experience, parents often don't see how their child acts in a classroom. They think they act the same as they do at home. Unfortunately, in a structured environment with 20 plus other children, the borderline and worse have many problems in the classroom coping with the demands of a regular curriculum. ADD and ADHD children have even more problems.

One of the main reasons I quit teaching was the lack of real parental support. The parents often feel like their child's problems become the teacher's problems when they leave for school. When you have as many as 35 kids in a classroom, it's impossible to give the necessary amount of one on one time with special needs students. The teacher often ends up being an expensive baby-sitter rather than an instructor. Worse, the other children in the class are often very shortchanged in receiving the instruction they need. It's a very difficult balancing act.

For severe cases I nearly always recommend a special Ed class. The class sizes are much smaller, between 4 and 8. This allows the teacher to give a lot more time to the students individual needs.

You didn't mention what your child's area of concerns were, and I am assuming it is behavioral. If it is purely a learning disability, that changes the situation completely. The children with learning disabilities often benefit greatly from integrated classrooms, particularly if they have a part, or full time, aide.

Send me an e-mail if you want to discuss this in more detail.

Siralex4u@aol.com

 

[Rubyfruit]

Chef, it's difficult to get a good diagnosis on a child. My son is 5-1/2. He's been seen by numerous specialists and the general consensus is PDD, Pervasive Developmental Disorder. Which is in the "autistic spectrum." It's basically a catch all dx. It means that the child has delays and difficulties, but they don't really know what causes it.

Two of the specialists have thought he may have Asperger's Syndrome, which is also in the autistic spectrum. Asperger's children (and adults) generally are high IQ, but are unable relate to normal emotions.

His teachers, however, have often brought up OCD and bipolar, which thus far, the doctors are unwilling to look at.

Most seem to want to take the report from the last doctor and go with it.

I swear, I ready this time to take him in and say, "nope, no dx so far."

It's so fucking frustrating.

 

[Rick DeVille]

Put your fucking av back!

 

[Rubyfruit]

Put your fucking av back!

I love when you order me around like that.

 

[Rick DeVille]

I love when you order me around like that.

Doesn't fucking make it happen though, does it?

 

[april-wine]

Put your fucking av back!

It is a little unsettling, I have to agree lol........

 

[cymbidia]

Ruby, i teach middle school science.

I feel that mainstreaming is *totally* appropriate.
I also get *very* impatient with the fact that there isn't enough monet to adequately care for mainstreamed kids in all thier classes.

For instance, unless a kid has a full time aide, just for them, there will be, have been, instances when the mainstreamed kid is in the regular classroom without an aide. At that time, it's just the teacher and (let's call it) 30 kids.

What if we're doing a micro lab and the kids are supposed to prepare slides and clean them and move microscopes around and take notes and all that stuff...

What does the mainstreamed kid do?

How do i, as the teacher, give appropriate instruction to *everyone* in my class without spending too much time on anyone in particular? I'll have brilliant kids clamoring for more info and more depth, the active kids trying to climb out the windons when my back is turned, those who didn't listen to the instructions and need the instructions again, those who insist they can't see anything through the microscopic lenses, the mainstreamed kid who needs his own share of indivdual help, another kid who's new and shy and hasn't ever used a microscope before, the ones that speak only Spanish, Suzie and Jonny who are always touching each other inappropriately and have to be separated constantly, the girl who will spend the entire period apply *more* makeup unless she's pushed into working, the kid that only speaks Thai, and the kid who took the bathroom pass and hasn't come back yet... 20 minutes later.

How can i handle all that and *still* teach science?

I think the vast majority of teachers *want* and are wildly in favor of mainstreaming. That's the way life is, after all - there're always gonna be all kinds of people one'll run into.

However, if you give us any way to smooth the madness in our classroom, we'll take it.

Will you tell us we don't have take non-English speakers?
Not in CA. It's illegal and discriminatory.
Will you tell us that you'll take the high-achievers and put them in thier own classes?
Not in CA. It's maybe illegal and certainly elitist.
Will you tell us that the mainstreamed kid is entitled by law to thier own aide?
Yep. That is Federal law, i think. If it means we have a tiny bit more control to insist that we *not* have an aideless mainstreamed kid in our classroom, then we'll jump all over it.

Like most teachers, Ruby, i strongly support mainstreaming. It's always gonna be best for the kid, and for the other kids in the class, too.

However, if it's gonna significantly affect my ability to do my job, Ruby, than i'd oppose it.

I'm way way tired.
Did this make any kinda sense at all?

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Chef, it's difficult to get a good diagnosis on a child. My son is 5-1/2. He's been seen by numerous specialists and the general consensus is PDD, Pervasive Developmental Disorder. Which is in the "autistic spectrum." It's basically a catch all dx. It means that the child has delays and difficulties, but they don't really know what causes it.

Ahhh so he's a hit and miss kid.

If your prep teacher(or special ed) is useful he/she should just be checking that he's doing all the things you should at that age and helping out in bits. Integrated is a great idea and it should be that first and then special ed if need to fill in the gaps. They can still learn so much from just having a bright kid sitting alongside and guiding them along. Special ed is great for making sure they learn but it kills normal childhood if its full time.. and thats something I'd never do to anyone.

 

[Rubyfruit]

It made a lot of sense, cym.

I totally understand.

It is late. Maybe we should pick this up tomorrow?

Sir Alex, I really appreciated your opinions as well. I think I will be emailing you soon.

 

[freakygirl]

Ruby... my heart goes out to you. What a wonderful mother you are.. fighting for your sons right to a good education. I wish I would have done the same thing you did.

My youngest son was labeled with a learning disability from about the age of 2. Although he was way advanced in areas like.. playing Nintendo, eye hand coordination and knowing all the states and their capitals.. he had problems else where.

He went to a special school for Kindergarten, then I gave custody to his father. My ex husband wouldn't do the "special ed" classes. He lives in a much larger school district and was able to get my son into integrated classes.

My son is now 11.. and is in the school band.. playing all sports.. and is an excelled student. (He is the one that is reading and doing math at a college level).

If there is anyway to fight.. you do it.. and you do it hard. Don't let anyone label your child.

Not sure if it is an option, but have you considered home schooling? I'm sure there is many programs down there that would be great. My friend who lives in Seattle is in a home schooling group. Her son, also labeled "disabled" is doing wonderful.

Best of luck lady..

 

[lilminx]

Well, Ruby, you've addressed an isse that I deal with every single day. I am a special ed teacher teaching in an integrated classroom- first grade, but our school has integrated classses from Pre-k through 2nd grade. After they "graduate" from my school (and yes, it is a NYC public school), the children with disabilities go on to another integrated class elsewhere in the program unless they are up for their triennial review and are found to be better placed in another program.

I teach with a general ed teacher, and although we only have 19 students, it doesn't make our job any easier.

I think that in theory, integrated or inclusion classes are a wonderful idea. However, we haven't received much training as to how to modify the general ed curriculum (we are required to use the gen ed reading and math programs), and we have students with a wide range of abilities: emotional and behavioral problems, high-functioning autism, ESL, LD, Speech, CP,etc.... As of now, the students with disabilities outnumber the students without disabilities.

Four of the children in the class are high-functioning students who have autistic tendencies. I actually think that they are the most apporpriately placed, as they can keep up with the work and need the social integration.

However, there are several children in the class who are having a difficult time- they haven't quite learned the alphabet yet, and don't recognize all numbers 1-10. According to our new state standards and mandates, they are far below standards and have "promotion in doubt". Althought they are special ed, a couple of them might have to repeat first grade. I'm don't think that this is fair, and is they were placed in a setting where their needs can be met, it wouldn't be so difficult for them.

I just received a student on Monday whose mother whisked him away to Ecuador in August and just came back last week. He wasn't in school for that entire time, and he has a lot or problems. He speaks and understands very little English, he has mild CP, he had oxygen cut off to his brain when he was born, etc... He is supposed to receive his own para (teacher's aide), but he may not. No one in the class is fluent in spanish. Why the fuck didn't they place him in a bilingual integrated or special ed class?! They have many in Queens.

You might ask, "Well, there are 2 teachers in the room. Why can't you work with the children having difficulties?" Well, I do, as does the other teacher. The problem is that taking some children aside and working with them separately sort of defeats one of the main objectives of an integrated classroom. The gen ed reading program is now too hard and above the children struggling for me to even modify it. I've decided that I have to use a whole different reading program for these children- a phonics-based one- and although they still won't be up to par by the end of the year, they will at least know the alphabet and sounds.

If children who were having some difficulty, but needed that extra push to get where they need to be, or for socialization reasons, then I think integration is great. However, I feel that many educators find themselves in inclusion or inegrated settings with little or no training, and that many of the students are misdiagnosed or misplaced.

On a lighter note, I have one student in my class with many autistic tendencies. Last year, he would get upset and throw tantrums in the class. He rarely participated, talkd with the other children, and has sensory issues (doesn't like to be touched, certain noises bother him, etc). Well, the other day, the children had structured center time and he was actually initiating a conversation with two of the general ed boys- he hadn't really done that before. They decided to take the US atlas and draw pics of their trip to Florida. I almost wanted to cry because he has come such a long way, and my heart warmed. He was also the first one to volunteer to read his journal yesterday.

Sorry, Ruby, for my long and rambling post to this. It is a subject that I haqve many conflicting feelings about, but I hope that I answered your questions and gave you some insight to a teacher's perspective on it.

Two of the specialists have thought he may have Asperger's Syndrome, which is also in the autistic spectrum. Asperger's children (and adults) generally are high IQ, but are unable relate to normal emotions.

Sorry, I missed this the first time around. I have another child in the class who many beleive has Asperger's. He is VERY smart, but socailly inept. I think that putting him in a special ed class would be doing him a grave disservice, as his abilities would not be fostered. I have to be very strict with him- I don't let him get away with anything- and he often acts before he thinks, but for the most part, I think that an integrated class is a great setting for him. I have high expectations for him (as do his parents- wonderful people). The only problem is that he is a very big child (he just turned 7 and he's almost as tall as me!) and he pushes the others sometimes for them to get out of his way. It concerns me that one day he might hurt one of them. if there was a gifted class (when he's a few years older) for children with disabilities in a regualr school, I thinkthat he would thrive there.

 

[Guest]

Ruby,

I was away for the week and just saw your question. My school does not do full inclusion for our special ed kids. Instead, each student is included in the regular classroom for the amount of time that he/she can be successful. There are 8 Kindergartners in our school who are in the Special Ed program. 5 of them spend at least part of their day in a regular classroom. Two of them spend 4 hours in the reg classroom, and the other three spend 2 hours in the reg classroom. They are not accompanied by aides, so they are truly included during their time in the regular classroom.


For the kids, they get the best of both worlds. They are interacting and learning in the regular classroom and they get the extra attention they need during their time in the Special Ed classroom. We are in the process of evaluating their placements for next year, as well as the incoming Kindergartners. I really don't see any changes happening, because everyone is pleased with the results we have had this year.

Bottom line, talk to the teachers and do what you think is right for your child. In Special Ed particularly, the parents who fight for their children are the parents who will have successful children.

mg

 

[morninggirl5]

Damn cookies, my absence must have let the cookie monster in.

 

[Rubyfruit]

You all have brought up a good many points. I completely sympathize with the situation teachers are in. It seems an almost impossible task to meet every students' needs.

My district wanted to move my child to a special ed class after he proved to be difficult in the integrated classroom. I toured the classes they had to offer and went home and cried.

One class was for autistic kids. There were 5 students and 3 adults (probably one teacher and two aides). All five of the kids appeared to be severely autistic. None were talking at all, and all were stimming uncontrollably. (stimming is the arm and hand flapping characteristic of autistics)

The second class also had 5 students. I would say the language level in the classroom was possibly 2 years old. The teacher admitted to me that she did no integration at all (bringing her students to the library or playground with the typical kids) because her class was so difficult this year.

Neither of these classes would be an appropriate placement for my son. The district hinted that they would force the issue (moving him) and I replied that I would sue. They dropped it.

One class did look promising, in that it was a special ed class but the students didn't appear to have any severe problems. In fact, they appeared much like typical kids do, just as my son does. And they integrated several times a day. However, that class was full. Of course.

I believe the solution is smaller class size and more classroom aides. But of course that takes money. In CT (one of the richest districts in the country, I believe), my son was in an integrated pre-school program. There were 10 typical children and 10 special ed. There were 2 teachers and 2 aides. It was an excellent program.

Here, there are 20 typical kids and 10 special ed. Two teachers and only one aide. Even though I forced the district to bring an additional aide into the class, the teachers are still overwhelmed.

I have mixed feelings about personal aides or, shadows. In some cases, I think they are of great benefit. For instance, my nephew was born with a spinal defect that has left him in an electric wheel chair, with very little use of his arms. He also has no control of his bladder or bowels and thus must wear a diaper. He is 9. His aide can pick up a pencil for him if he drops it and descreatly take him for diaper changes.

In a situation like mine, however, I think a shadow would benefit the teacher more than my child. The shadows are not trained special ed teachers. They would not be able to give my child the instructional and behavioral attention he needs. The burden of the child is taken away from the teacher and given to the aide, somebody far less qualified.

I would just like to say that I think teachers, and especially special ed teachers, are the most amazing people on this planet. I know that most of you care very much for the well-being of all of the children in your class. Thank you for that.

_______

Freaky, thank you for telling me your son's success story. I hope I can write a similar story in 10 years.

 

[rambling man]

From what I understand, if a classroom has a large nuber of students in it, both the children with developent or learning disabilities and the higher end children will often get the most neglect. The teacher cannot challenge the high end, nor help the disabled because he or she must spend much of their time preparing to teach the normal children, handle discipline, and try to keep themselves sane. Classrooms in general should be much, much smaller, especially if they insist on putting such a wide range of abilities in the same place