Question for the author community

[BrokenSpokes]

Hypothetical for other Lit authors:

You find out that another Lit author, one who has left nice comments on your work, did a complete translation of one of your stories. And posted (so far) six of the eight chapters of your work, in their entirety (but in another language) on their author page.

Say this person acknowledges in the intro that it’s a translation of your work, but they do not link to your original work or your author page.

They did not ask you for permission or tell you they were doing it. Say you found out through other means.

How would you feel? Is translation without permission plagiarism?

Genuinely interested to hear what others think. My knee jerk reaction is that if they’d asked me I probably would have thought it was neat but since they didn’t I feel incredibly violated.

 

[Britva415]

Is translation without permission plagiarism?

100%

Hypothetically, you can use the "report" button on those 6 stories. Plagiarism is one of the options in the "why are you reporting this" form.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Well, credit was given, so that’s something, I guess. Rather presumptuous of them.

Have you thought of writing and asking for a link to be added?

 

[Bamagan]

Hypothetical for other Lit authors:

You find out that another Lit author, one who has left nice comments on your work, did a complete translation of one of your stories. And posted (so far) six of the eight chapters of your work, in their entirety (but in another language) on their author page.

Say this person acknowledges in the intro that it’s a translation of your work, but they do not link to your original work or your author page.

They did not ask you for permission or tell you they were doing it. Say you found out through other means.

How would you feel? Is translation without permission plagiarism?

Genuinely interested to hear what others think. My knee jerk reaction is that if they’d asked me I probably would have thought it was neat but since they didn’t I feel incredibly violated.

Unauthorized translations, whether they include attribution to the original author or not, are violations of copyright. You're perfectly within your rights to demand they be taken down and/or discontinued, although if you haven't registered a copyright, that may be about all you can do without a lawyer. I'd say report them, unless you can come to some kind of alternative arrangement with the translator.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'd also be interested in people's thoughts about what conditions they'd want to impose if somebody did ask for permission.

For me - I would be flattered and very likely say yes. But I'd need to retain the right to have the translation edited or pulled if I ever needed to - e.g. if I came to regret something I'd written, or if the translator turned out to be a bad person. I would also probably require an assurance that authorising the translation will not put any restriction on what I can do with my own work - for instance, if I agree to a Danish fan's request to translate one of my stories, and then later I decide to get a professional Danish translation done and try to sell it as an e-book on the lucrative Danish market, I would not want to be exposed to claims that Translation #2 violates Translation #1's copyrights. Anything else an author should be thinking about before they say yes?

 

[CreatingKate]

You have every right to feel violated. Doing a translation, especially of your work, is an INCREDIBLY difficult undertaking. Sometimes the translator is left with questions of how to communicate the information and may make changes to your work that are unauthorized. (For example, there are some idioms in English that when translated to other languages are incredibly offensive, so the translator could make a change that shifts the meaning of the passage.) And those changes compromise the spirit and maybe even the theme of your work. While it would be very flattering to have someone ask to translate your work, it's such a tricky task that should really only be attempted by professionals. And also.... they put it on THEIR author page???? I believe it would have been more appropriate to put it on YOUR page as an option to read with a special thanks to them.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'd probably just ask them to link to my author's page and request they ask me first if they want to translate any of my other work.

Obviously there is no money involved here so I'm not sure it's worth getting upset over.
Of course some folks here are way more protective of their work than I am.

 

[KeithD]

I'd privately ask Laurel to delete the translation as not having been sanctioned by you. The content and posting dates should back up how it originated. And I'd let her take care of it. The kicker is the not asking permission to use it. Copyright ownership includes other-language variations.

It would be up to you on whether/whether not you'd give permission for a translation to be done if asked beforehand and what, if anything, you'd get in return if permission had been granted. A few of my stories have been translated into German. The translator asked, and I said, sure, go ahead, with no other requirement than including who the original author was. I didn't check on how the translation turned out. Different markets; not worth the effort on a story already provided for free read on the Internet.

 

[Bamagan]

I'd also be interested in people's thoughts about what conditions they'd want to impose if somebody did ask for permission.

For me - I would be flattered and very likely say yes. But I'd need to retain the right to have the translation edited or pulled if I ever needed to - e.g. if I came to regret something I'd written, or if the translator turned out to be a bad person. I would also probably require an assurance that authorising the translation will not put any restriction on what I can do with my own work - for instance, if I agree to a Danish fan's request to translate one of my stories, and then later I decide to get a professional Danish translation done and try to sell it as an e-book on the lucrative Danish market, I would not want to be exposed to claims that Translation #2 violates Translation #1's copyrights. Anything else an author should be thinking about before they say yes?

I think, as the original copyright holder, even if you had multiple translations done, none of them would be considered to infringe on each other, as they're all derivatives of the same content. It'd be a pretty difficult case for translator #1 to prove that translator #2 infringed on their unique interpretations of the original work, and even if they could, I don't think it would legally involve you as other than a witness, perhaps. But that's just a guess; it's not a scenario I've ever thought about before, although I imagine there's likely a subset of copyright lawyers who think about it often.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Personally I feel that it is completely disrespectful to use a writers work in any way what so ever.
Regardless of whether the original writer is credited. It is done so without permission.
If I were in your position. I would ask for the story to be removed.
Cagivagurl.

 

[GinnyPPC]

You have every right to feel violated. Doing a translation, especially of your work, is an INCREDIBLY difficult undertaking. Sometimes the translator is left with questions of how to communicate the information and may make changes to your work that are unauthorized. (For example, there are some idioms in English that when translated to other languages are incredibly offensive, so the translator could make a change that shifts the meaning of the passage.) And those changes compromise the spirit and maybe even the theme of your work. While it would be very flattering to have someone ask to translate your work, it's such a tricky task that should really only be attempted by professionals. And also.... they put it on THEIR author page???? I believe it would have been more appropriate to put it on YOUR page as an option to read with a special thanks to them.

100% agree with you Kate. Translated works are by the original author, with a brief mention on inside of who did the translation. Typically, there is some sort of royalty sharing agreement as well between author and translator. That last part is, of course, moot on Lit since there are no royalties.

I'm frustrated for you Spokes, for many reasons. One of them being they didn't acknowledge your well-deserved accolades you earned on that story.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

"Anyone may translate a work that is out of copyright. For other works, [in Canada] the copyright owner has the sole right to produce, reproduce, and publish a translation. Her consent is also necessary to hold a public performance of the work in translation, for example, as a play. In the United States, translation is a species of derivative work, also fully controlled by the copyright owner."
(from Translation and Copyright: A Canadian Focus by David Vaver in European Intellectual Property Review. Volume 16, Number 4 (1994), p. 159-166.

Any translation may itself be copyrighted, on the basis that translation is a creative activity and that translations of the same work may differ from each other

 

[Voboy]

My knee jerk reaction is that if they’d asked me I probably would have thought it was neat but since they didn’t I feel incredibly violated.

That's about where I'm at.

As things stand? I would try every means at my disposal to get them booted from the site (to be clear, I don't just mean the posted translations. I mean the person who did the translations, too). That's an egregious violation of your intellectual property, credited or not.

IF someone asked to do this to my work, I'd refuse. Mostly because I value my words enough to want to know what they're saying, and in another language I wouldn't. I'd be polite, however.

What you're describing is not the time to be polite.

 

[mildlyaroused]

I'd report the translations. Yes, the translator invested time and effort into their task (which is a difficult one), but they needed to ask your permission. If someone wanted to translate my work, it's unlikely I would allow them to do so outside of a professional context where I can see their expertise and past work. I wouldn't know how my voice and words were being changed.

 

[SimonDoom]

1. Since they gave you credit, it's not plagiarism, because plagiarism is passing off someone else's work as your own, and that's not what they are doing. They admit the original work is yours.
2. Since they did not obtain permission, it is very clearly copyright infringement, because the right to translate a written work is one of the enumerated exclusive rights the owner of a copyright has under sections 101 and 103 of the Copyright Act, which define "translation" as a type of "derivative work."
3. Yes, you have a right to feel violated by someone doing this without your permission, even if they gave you credit. I would be angry in your shoes.
4. This is what I would do, but you should feel no obligation to feel the same way: I would immediately contact the author and chide them for not having obtained my permission. I would insist that they provide a link to my original story, assert that I own the copyright, and that they have obtained from me a limited, nonexclusive, revocable license to publish their translation in this forum alone, and that this license gives neither them nor any other party the right to reproduce the translation or to create any additional translations or derivative works. I would let them know that if they did not comply I would contact Laurel immediately, let her know what was done, and insist on the removal of the translation. I would add Bramblethorn's suggestion that they explicitly agree that their translation does not preclude me from making my own translation in the same language or licensing another person to make such a translation.

5. If you feel, on the other hand, that you just want it taken down, you are entitled to feel that way, and you should have no hesitation to contact Laurel to remove it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

"Anyone may translate a work that is out of copyright. For other works, [in Canada] the copyright owner has the sole right to produce, reproduce, and publish a translation. Her consent is also necessary to hold a public performance of the work in translation, for example, as a play. In the United States, translation is a species of derivative work, also fully controlled by the copyright owner."
(from Translation and Copyright: A Canadian Focus by David Vaver in European Intellectual Property Review. Volume 16, Number 4 (1994), p. 159-166.

Any translation may itself be copyrighted, on the basis that translation is a creative activity and that translations of the same work may differ from each other

Yeah, I've seen several cases where somebody has used a translation of an ancient work without realising that the translation itself is still protected.

My worry there would be something akin to the situation where an author permits fanfic and the fanfic writer claims infringement when the original author later publishes something that happens to match part of that fanfic (often because the fanfic was just following the published work to a conclusion that the original author had already planned and clued). I don't know of any of those that have been ruled in favour of the fanfic, but they've caused enough problems that most authors avoid reading fic of their works even if they're delighted that such fic exists.

 

[alohadave]

Unauthorized translations, whether they include attribution to the original author or not, are violations of copyright. You're perfectly within your rights to demand they be taken down and/or discontinued, although if you haven't registered a copyright, that may be about all you can do without a lawyer. I'd say report them, unless you can come to some kind of alternative arrangement with the translator.

You don't even need to bother with copyright. Lit's written policy is that if the original author wants it taken down, it gets taken down.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It does make me wonder how moderation works on the non-English side of things. When a story comes through that's clearly flagged as translation of a different author's work, without mentioning permission, perhaps whoever moderates those submissions ought to be questioning that.

 

[SimonDoom]

You don't even need to bother with copyright. Lit's written policy is that if the original author wants it taken down, it gets taken down.

You don't have to, but since Lit specifically states that it respects copyright law and this policy is based on copyright principles, at least loosely, then it probably would be a good point to specifically state to Laurel in a complaint that you believe your copyright in your work is being violated, because "copyright violation" is likely something that will make the site owner's ears perk up.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

1. Since they gave you credit, it's not plagiarism,

That's not correct. That only holds for short excerpts for use in another work, such as reviews, research articles, and news reports. Translating or republishing entire or major parts of works is an infringement of copyright; it is plagiarism. The owner of the original copyright has control over translations anyway, and unauthorised translations are also infringements of copyright.

 

[alohadave]

That's not correct. That only holds for short excerpts for use in another work, such as reviews, research articles, and news reports.

The definition of plagiarism is using a work without attribution to the author.

 

[SimonDoom]

That's not correct. That only holds for short excerpts for use in another work, such as reviews, research articles, and news reports. Translating or republishing entire or major parts of works is an infringement of copyright; it is plagiarism. The owner of the original copyright has control over translations anyway, and unauthorised translations are also infringements of copyright.

Plagiarism and copyright infringement are two very different things. What people are in this thread calling "plagiarism" is not plagiarism, it is copyright infringement.

The unauthorized use of another's work, with or without credit, is copyright infringement. Credit is irrelevant; permission is essential.

Plagiarism is when you pass off another's work as your own. This is true even if you DO get the other's permission. For instance, if you publish an academic article that presents the idea of Mr. A as your own, and you get written permission from Mr. A under the table, but you do not disclose to the readership of the article that the idea is not your own, then you have plagiarized, regardless of permission. The idea behind plagiarism is that it's a form of dishonesty to the public. That dishonesty is not cured by permission alone.

Generally speaking, copyright infringement is an issue for the law, while plagiarism is a matter of honor. But probably most authors regard copyright infringement as a matter of honor as well as a matter of law.

They are two different things.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

The definition of plagiarism is using a work without attribution to the author.

Plagiarism and copyright infringement are two very different things. What people are in this thread calling "plagiarism" is not plagiarism, it is copyright infringement.

The unauthorized use of another's work, with or without credit, is copyright infringement. Credit is irrelevant; permission is essential.

Plagiarism is when you pass off another's work as your own. This is true even if you DO get the other's permission. For instance, if you publish an academic article that presents the idea of Mr. A as your own, and you get written permission from Mr. A under the table, but you do not disclose to the readership of the article that the idea is not your own, then you have plagiarized, regardless of permission. The idea behind plagiarism is that it's a form of dishonesty to the public. That dishonesty is not cured by permission alone.

Generally speaking, copyright infringement is an issue for the law, while plagiarism is a matter of honor. But probably most authors regard copyright infringement as a matter of honor as well as a matter of law.

They are two different things.

I'll stand corrected and clarified on that aspect of the question.

 

[StillStunned]

I work with translators in my non-Lit life. Here's the thing: if it's not done by a professional, it's probably machine-translated and almost certainly crap, even if the "translator" post-edited it. How long are your stories? A professional translator has an ouput of about 2.5k words a day. And no professional translator is going to do that kind of work for free when they could be doing paid work.

 

[Agent0069]

If it’s one of the other languages I speak, I’d be offended and say something like “You call that a translation? Watch how it’s done!”

But I agree, it feels like plagiarism and attempt to earn fame by copying works of the others. Ask for permission first!