Pushing the boundaries...

[Deeply_Twisted]

Hey all,

I've been working on the third part of my story, and I'm at a quandary. The primary characters in my story are heading into a collision with 'the bad guy' and the plan all along in my head was that both characters suffer intensely at his hands and then their friends pull them out of the situation and deal with the bad guy.

The problem is that the 'bad guy' breaks several site taboos. Some of which I can leave out without a problem, some of which need to be left in.

This is not what the story is about. The story is about two people connecting and growing close and then suffering a horrific event that they need to deal with and try to help each other heal.

Is the site open to stories like this or do I have to find another driver for my tale to post it here?

I'll be blunt, the 'event' involves rape, torture, kidnapping... it's done from a horrific perspective and isn't meant to be titillating. I don't want to dwell on it, but it's something that pushes the story forward and I feel it's important. (I'm following Stephen King's guideline of make your characters beautiful, wonderful people that your readers will like and wish they knew... and then do terrible, terrible things to them.)

Thoughts on this?

DT

 

[lovecraft68]

Rape and torture, especially sexual torture are flat out against the rules.

As I suggested to someone else maybe you describe this in small glimpses in flashback form to take the edge off.

This is like the 3rd or 4th thread along these lines lately.

Goddamn, I remember when erotica was supposed to be fun and sexy.

 

[PennLady]

Rape and torture, especially sexual torture are flat out against the rules.

I think they are flat out against the rules if that is the point of the story. However, if those scenes serve a larger story, they may be allowed. In a similar thread, I noted stories by Daniellekitten that did this (she appears to have taken them down for publishing; that or I don't recall the titles. Although I thought one was called "Sanctuary" and the other "Red Ribbons").

I think basically if one has questions about this, one should PM Laurel.

Goddamn, I remember when erotica was supposed to be fun and sexy.

Says the man whose major work was a self-described dark dark dark BDSM-incest novel.

 

[Concretejungleman]

Hang on, so does this site have clearly laid out rules on what content is too seamy to be allowed? It's seeming pretty vague now. Would male on male rape scenes be flat out against the rules?

 

[sr71plt]

Hang on, so does this site have clearly laid out rules on what content is too seamy to be allowed? It's seeming pretty vague now. Would male on male rape scenes be flat out against the rules?

There are explicit rules:

No sexual activity involving bestiality (you can write stories about supernatural beasts like ghosts, unicorns, werewolves, etc.) or underage persons will be considered. For the purposes of this site, the minimum legal age is 18. This site does not publish stories, articles, essays, or other material supporting, encouraging, or defending child abuse and/or exploitation.

What there is is hazy application. And since there''s only one editor (I've never seen Laurel claim there were more), there are taboo stories that get through because the taboo elements aren't seen by the submissions editor in her scan.

The rules that are there (unless there are more rules elsewhere) don't say anything about rape, so either rape stories being rejected here is an unwritten rule or it's an urban myth. Anyone ever have gotten a rejection saying rape stories weren't permitted?

I could very well be that the distinction between rape and nonconsent (which is a category here) is something everyone but the Web site owners have any concern about.

And to the last question, some of my male-male stories have a rape in them and they weren't rejected. As is being noted on several threads on this nonconsent/rape topic, though, the rape was integral to the context of the story and wasn't glorified as anything to be approved of.

 

[PennLady]

Hang on, so does this site have clearly laid out rules on what content is too seamy to be allowed? It's seeming pretty vague now. Would male on male rape scenes be flat out against the rules?

Clearly laid out? Not really.

This is the section on violence in the Editor's Forum thread on why stories might be rejected:

Was there excessive violence, snuff, or abuse of characters in your story?

Your story was too extreme for our guidelines. These judgments are subjective, and thus we can't give an exact definition of what exactly is "too much". Certain "violence" in a BDSM situation between consenting adults may be allowed, while the same "violence" between strangers in a non-consentual situation will not. Tone and respect for characters, as well as the "violent" scene within the context of the story, are what we make our judgments upon. If your story is rejected for this, feel free to send the story back with a polite request for an explanation and we will tell you why it was rejected. If you disagree with our assessment, you are more than welcome to publish your story elsewhere rather than alter it to our guidelines. We respect your rights as authors to write on whatever you like, however you like.

To read the whole thing, click here.

What I've read in various forum threads, which include some posts and response from Laurel, who vets the stories, indicates that a flat-out rape story will be rejected. So even in a "non-consent" story, at some point the victim will indeed consent and/or enjoy what's happening to them. However, I have read stories that included rapes or sexual assault of some kind as part of a larger picture, and those scenes were not rejected.

I can tell you that I'd advise that a rape or other violent scene will go through if it is not the point of the story. A story that is a rape story will likely get rejected.

However, the only final word can come from Laurel, and you can send her a private message by using the link at the top right of the page.

 

[Deeply_Twisted]

This is interesting.

I wasn't looking to write a rape story, but I did go into this with this specific scene planned specifically to catalyst later interactions between the characters.

I think I'll tone down what I write about in regards to it, make it more implied and focus more on the aftermath. I can still have the event but I don't have to write about it much.

It should be ok like that, if Lauren has a problem I can tweak it.

DT

 

[lovecraft68]

I think they are flat out against the rules if that is the point of the story. However, if those scenes serve a larger story, they may be allowed. In a similar thread, I noted stories by Daniellekitten that did this (she appears to have taken them down for publishing; that or I don't recall the titles. Although I thought one was called "Sanctuary" and the other "Red Ribbons").

I think basically if one has questions about this, one should PM Laurel.



Says the man whose major work was a self-described dark dark dark BDSM-incest novel.

Wrong on the "if it serves the purpose of the story."

Remember I had a 33k story kicked off here for a total of three paragraphs that very much "served the story" and was a fraction of what was going on. "

As for me? My "major" work was quite dark as in a bit depressing and a lot of r/l issues.

There was no torture and out of 932K there was a two paragraph rape scene. I'm sure there's a lot of dark stuff here.

also note in the FAQ that you posted those acts when under BDSM conditions are allowed. Those were the condition of my story. It may have been rough but always consensual.

My point is its the 4th thread in a the last couple of days, that is stressing flat out rape and pure violence. it seems like its getting more popular to be "brutal" than sexy.

 

[PennLady]

Wrong on the "if it serves the purpose of the story."

I said it "may" be allowed. I don't vet the stories. All I know is I have read stories that included this stuff -- usually some sort of mystery/detective/cop thing -- and they were permitted.

As for me? My "major" work was quite dark as in a bit depressing and a lot of r/l issues.

There was no torture and out of 932K there was a two paragraph rape scene. I'm sure there's a lot of dark stuff here.

You're missing my point. You said you remembered when erotica was supposed to be "fun and sexy." I thought that was amusing given what your longest story was about. It didn't particularly sound "fun" to me, although apparently it was both fun and sexy for your readers.

Never mind. It was a bit of a joke, a tease.

 

[Concretejungleman]

When I get more spare time I will certainly read lovecraft's hard core work Perhaps I could do with my mind being expanded if you catch my drift.

 

[sr71plt]

I said it "may" be allowed. I don't vet the stories. All I know is I have read stories that included this stuff -- usually some

Bingo. I've got murder mysteries posted here--including ones with gruesome sex-crime murders in them. (Anyone who wants to check can look for the series starting "Death in . . .") Interestingly, my most graphic rape scenes are in the Vampire series posted here. It's rather amusing what a vampire can get away with on Literotica.

 

[Concretejungleman]

Vampires are not human characters. I suppose that is the loophole. Literotica seems to have the most relaxed rules of all the creative writing sites that I know about.

 

[lovecraft68]

I said it "may" be allowed. I don't vet the stories. All I know is I have read stories that included this stuff -- usually some sort of mystery/detective/cop thing -- and they were permitted.



You're missing my point. You said you remembered when erotica was supposed to be "fun and sexy." I thought that was amusing given what your longest story was about. It didn't particularly sound "fun" to me, although apparently it was both fun and sexy for your readers.

Never mind. It was a bit of a joke, a tease.

No problem on the tease. It was dark and a bit nasty. Its also not the only thing on here like that.

I am only making that comment as it seems lately there seems to be a huge push towards that type of stuff.

Guess it fits the rest of the times we live in

For the record? My last several stories have been very light and "playful" to the point my original fans are busting my balls about going soft.

Next week I'm launching a bondage laced loving wives story to shut them up.

Imagine that? Me too nice!

 

[lovecraft68]

Bingo. I've got murder mysteries posted here--including ones with gruesome sex-crime murders in them. (Anyone who wants to check can look for the series starting "Death in . . .") Interestingly, my most graphic rape scenes are in the Vampire series posted here. It's rather amusing what a vampire can get away with on Literotica.

Double bingo!

What this really comes down to and I'm not trying to be an ass, but I think your post bares me out. What the site says they allow and what posts are vastly different.

They barely check the stories and I think in many cases(yours I have no doubt as you have been here a long time and they "know" you) they are not looking at all.

They set their rules in the hope that they will be followed. They do little to enforce them. Which is why there tends to be a lot of frustrated posters who happen to be the 1 in 20 that get caught for something and can't figure out why they got rejected when the same content is everywhere.

For your vampire series it is possible that NH gets away with more based on being in the "spirit" of the category, but it is also just as likely they never screened your pieces.

Proof of this is the chapter I mentioned someone reported of mine and they rejected it? I simply re submitted it as is the day after they rejected it and it went through. Literally a day after they kicked it out they didn't even bother to look at the title or author(I would think they could remember it) I have since removed it and the rest of the series on my own. I was just testing my theory.

Fact is they're not interested in taking the time to really enforce the rules. They seem to rely more on threads like this where people ask and we "police" it.

Best answer in all honesty is just post and see what happens.

 

[lovecraft68]

Vampires are not human characters. I suppose that is the loophole. Literotica seems to have the most relaxed rules of all the creative writing sites that I know about.

Try asstr. but only if you can stomach the gang rape of 12 year olds. They will literally allow anything.

Lit is at least "within reason" and has a modicum of decency

 

[sr71plt]

In some areas, erotica has stricter boundaries than the mainstream does (scrutiny over the shoulder, most likely). I've seen treatment of both rape and underage in the mainstream that we couldn't get away with on Literotica.

 

[lovecraft68]

In some areas, erotica has stricter boundaries than the mainstream does (scrutiny over the shoulder, most likely). I've seen treatment of both rape and underage in the mainstream that we couldn't get away with on Literotica.

See Stephen King for good examples of your point.

Very few people seem to remember the underage (consensual) gangbang in that story.

 

[sr71plt]

In some areas, erotica has stricter boundaries than the mainstream does (scrutiny over the shoulder, most likely). I've seen treatment of both rape and underage in the mainstream that we couldn't get away with on Literotica.

This applies to murder mysteries too. I've had a bit of trouble with this in the erotica publishing world. People die, sometimes violently. But it's like, you know, a murder mystery--a mainstay fiction genre. You can't have a murder mystery without someone dying.

 

[lovecraft68]

This applies to murder mysteries too. I've had a bit of trouble with this in the erotica publishing world. People die, sometimes violently. But it's like, you know, a murder mystery--a mainstay fiction genre. You can't have a murder mystery without someone dying.

Perhaps you should just post them in Murder/mystery. The crowd there most likely wouldn't complain about some erotica with their violence, where as murder and erotica are not apparently the best mix.

Its like that old reeses commercial about getting chocolate in someone's peanut butter.

 

[sr71plt]

The trouble was in the published e-book distributors; not here at Literotica. They are doing just fine here where they are and they cleared without question.

 

[lovecraft68]

The trouble was in the published e-book distributors; not here at Literotica. They are doing just fine here where they are and they cleared without question.

What category are they published under, is it erotica?

My series sort of had to be posted here. Not a lot of places to post BDSM/Incest. I have it fro sale on Smashwords and I guess B&N takes incest because all my stuff is there, but other wise not a lot of options for that piece. Too bad I always felt it was a cut above just being an incest story.

 

[sr71plt]

Erotica, Gay Male, and Mystery/Suspense. They can be listed in three categories at most distributors. I don't know if there are places they can only be listed in one--because my publisher does the listing, not me. If there was only one category, they would have to go in Gay, because that's the controlling category for those books.

My pen name mystery mainstream e-books aren't erotica. They list in Mystery/Suspense, with the most successful series going in Lesbian. But the switch here is that if they could only go in one category, it is Mystery/Suspense, not Lesbian.

So, go figure.

 

[lovecraft68]

Erotica, Gay Male, and Mystery/Suspense. They can be listed in three categories at most distributors. I don't know if there are places they can only be listed in one--because my publisher does the listing, not me. If there was only one category, they would have to go in Gay, because that's the controlling category for those books.

My pen name mystery mainstream e-books aren't erotica. They list in Mystery/Suspense, with the most successful series going in Lesbian. But the switch here is that if they could only go in one category, it is Mystery/Suspense, not Lesbian.

So, go figure.

I think amazon and SW allow multiple categories. Most of mine fall under erotica, but I have two on amazon that are in erotica and adult romance.

Yes I would think GM has trump over all else. That's not a take or leave genre, you really have to be into it.

 

[xelliebabex]

Hey all,


Is the site open to stories like this or do I have to find another driver for my tale to post it here?

I'll be blunt, the 'event' involves rape, torture, kidnapping... it's done from a horrific perspective and isn't meant to be titillating. I don't want to dwell on it, but it's something that pushes the story forward and I feel it's important


DT

I am not one of the guru's but I had this issue and decided to deal with it in flashback so the story could have the detail without the actual event if you know what I mean. Worked for me and was published

Good luck with your story.

 

[Concretejungleman]

Try asstr. but only if you can stomach the gang rape of 12 year olds. They will literally allow anything.

Lit is at least "within reason" and has a modicum of decency

I did check that site briefly and yes, it seems they do allow just about anything. My personal opinion is that if an author, amateur or professional, writes about rape then it should definitely be presented as being a bad thing. For instance, I did check a short story on asstr about a babysitter getting gang raped by little boys (!) but her only reaction was that she was in trouble if she was made to babysit them again. It is wrong of the author to be flippant about the subject matter in this way even though he was clearly an amateur.

For the record there was at least one woman on man rape story on that site, but again, the author wasn't even trying to treat the subject matter properly. He made it a case of a man being raped by a beautiful young woman and them both enjoying it. The story would have been acceptable if he had felt disgusted and violated instead.