Punishment

[Netzach]

Which is why people (Dom/mes or subs) barely a step above fake or a pretender needs education in BDSM.

Uh, if they like it and their Top likes it how is this up for your personal critique?

I don't play that way but I also don't give a rat's ass if someone does.

 

[Netzach]

I actually don't think it is a confusing array unless of course I want to interpret it in my own way which is not included in the choices, and as I am a lover of language and OCD about maintaining some resemblance to the usual recognised meanings, I don't tend to stray from what is commonly understood.

As to correction, you mean that you just tell them they have done wrong and then expect them to not do so again? What if that doesn't work due to other issues which have nothing to do with wilfulness on the part of the submissive, or their trying to override your wishes? What makes that different from just being someone gifted or drawn to being a teacher/instructor?

I guess in part we differ in the need of style, though I always get the impression you feel that subs who do not fit your requirements are because they are less than submissive or just not good enough. For me, if I submitted to someone solely on the basis of because they told me I should do xyz otherwise I wasn't submissive enough, or because they told me they were dominant, I would then be stepping into the territory of submitting to anyone simply because they tell me they are a Dominant. I tend to need a little more than their word for it to see them as Dominant otherwise any arrogant male could and would get my submission, even if he didn't have a brain between his ears, simply because he said I should. Perhaps that is why I never understand those who claim they are so submissive they just submit to anyone...for me that does not prove the PYL is dominant or a Dominant. I actually have to see some proof they can dominate me, not necessarily physically, but at least in some form, same as PYL's have to see some evidence of submission apart from the pyl telling them they are submissive and/or saying they are because they like to do things for their loved one just as many do in vanilla relationships without the label of D/s. BTW, are you closely related to Pure? LOL, I see more and more similarities in style of posts each day the thought crossed my mind!!

Catalina

Uh, that's quite a leap.

I offer what I offer and I am what I am. If that person doesn't view me as Dominant in relation to them to the point where obedience feels *normal* it has nothing to do with them being uber sub or not, they're not the right sub for me. How is that so reprehensible? Being put in a position where I constantly have to reaffirm and reassert status quo isn't my gig - why would I want to get together with someone who needs that from their partner?

When I reaffirm stauts quo it's happy fun time. (tears and begging and happy fun time not being mutually exclusive.)

Piss me off time is when I don't want to look at you. It's hardly an avoidance of conflict - I'm not conflict averse - but it IS this strange quirk I have that viewing me as Dominant and in charge of you means you are doing your absolute best to do the few things I'm really insistant about. That's really not a lot to ask. I'm remarkably type B, lenient, and free-form.

I find that this is one of those (giant generalization ahead) girls do it differently things. As a FemDom there seems to be more emphasis on service rather than assertion of dominance and will. There's much less of a mental block around the idea that I'm the Goddess because I am, so do it. Not necessarily in relation to everyone in the world, but if you volunteer to be part of my world, yes, that's how it is. You yourself signed on, so deal.


I don't expect perfection. I believe in sick days at times. I believe that not everyone is capable of everything. I require, however, a general *desire* to make me happy. If that's not there we're misaligned to the pointless point.

If you're doing your damndest and it's not working, nine times in ten the problem is with my communication anyhow. Hardly cause for correction of the submissive. If you're just being an obstinate cunt, you need to get your head right quick. If you can't do that on your own with a small verbal cue, we are not going to make beautiful music together.

The people I've found respond well to me are in fact probably the MOST strong and self aware people I've met with the LEAST indecision/ambiguity/discomfort over their own submissive nature and the fact that it's not just something they throw around willy nilly.

 

[JMohegan]

As to correction, you mean that you just tell them they have done wrong and then expect them to not do so again?

I will give three examples to help you understand the way correction works in a relationship with me.

Example #1 - As I am putting on my coat to leave in the morning, I turn to my partner and ask her to tidy up, reorganize, and restock supplies in my den while I am gone. Some instructions are broad, some specific.

I return in the evening and find that she has done A, B, C, and D as instructed, but has omitted one piece of E and therefore not completed the task precisely as assigned.

Perhaps the omission occurred because I was not clear with my original instructions. Perhaps the omission occurred because she simply forgot one piece of the lengthy and detailed task that I assigned verbally as I rushed out the door.

In either case, my response will be to point out the error and let her correct it.

The important thing, to me, is that I know she was trying to follow my instructions and please me with her work in the room.


Example #2 - I have been working at my desk for hours and my partner has been reading quietly across the room. I ask her to go check to see if the mail has arrived. With a tone and facial expression clearly indicating that she is inviting me to take a break and play, she says something to indicate mock-resistance.

I may be in the mood to play, in which case I would accept her invitation by doing something like jumping up and chasing her all over the house.

However, if I am not in the mood to play, a single Look from me will be sufficient correction to get her moving out the door toward the mailbox.


Example #3 - She burns dinner.

I know she did not *want* to burn the food. Sometimes, stuff like this just happens.

Nine times out of ten, we would laugh about it together. If the food is inedible, I would ask her to make sandwiches or run out to pick something up from a nearby restaurant. That would constitute the "correction" in this case.

I guess in part we differ in the need of style, though I always get the impression you feel that subs who do not fit your requirements are because they are less than submissive or just not good enough.

Your impression is incorrect.

I choose partners because their needs, desires, and personalities are well-matched for my own. This has nothing to do with level of submissiveness or good vs. bad in a general, qualitative sense.

My purpose in describing my relationships here is to help you and others understand that not all Dominants and submissives think the same way or have the same needs.

For example, my partners would never consider willingness to punish to be "proof" of Dominance. In a relationship with me, punishment has nothing to do with the essence of what's going on.

My partners respect me, follow me, obey me because of the character traits I exhibit when interacting with others and also with them.

Netzach explained it perfectly when she wrote: "If that person doesn't view me as Dominant in relation to them to the point where obedience feels *normal* it has nothing to do with them being uber sub or not, they're not the right sub for me."

Exactly.

I don't do "make me". Not in any way, shape, or form. I am just not interested in that type of dynamic.

 

[JMohegan]

To avoid misunderstanding, I'll give a simple example to illustrate my use of various terms in this post.

An Algebra teacher assigns a set of problems for homework.

Julie works hard to complete the assignment, as carefully and accurately as she possibly can. She gets one problem wrong. The teacher explains where and how the error was made so that Julie can avoid making the same mistake in the future. That's correction.

Jane works hard to complete the assignment, as carefully and accurately as she possibly can. She gets many problems wrong. The teacher explains where and how the errors were made and assigns an extra sheet of problems to Jane for practice. That's correction, plus discipline.

Janet completed one problem of the assignment and then decided to spend the evening watching TV instead. She gets detention after school for a solid week. That's punishment.

To continue my analogy from above, think of my partners as students with a strong aptitude for Algebra and an enduring dedication to performing well in the class.

Under the circumstances (and using the meanings I have just identified), I correct when necessary but do not need to discipline or punish.

I am quoting portions of my posts 47 and 49 to make sure there is no misunderstanding as to my analogy here.

The point of comparing my partners to people like Julie is not to say that they are smarter, more skilled, more submissive, etc.

The point is simply to note that the tasks I assign are not beyond the natural capabilities of my partners.

For me, there is no benefit in assigning tasks that would place my partners in the position of Jane, above, because the effort involved in the correction and discipline would outweigh the benefits to me from the assignment.

I am not interested in molding subs into something different than they were before or correcting anybody's bad habits or establishing elaborate protocol or indeed doing anything else that requires that level of effort on my part.

I just want my den cleaned and my mail brought in and my dinner prepared. Outside the bedroom, that's really what it boils down to here.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Do you know what my problem with beating is?

Subs LIKE it to much. It has to much pleasure. Beating I prefer for minor infractions because they show my affection and displeasure. But for my strongest displeasure, something like a beating isn't sufficient.

It doesn't teach, fix, or sting.

To say that punishment doesn't work, in my own opinion is not entirely accurate. I think of punishment as negative stimulus.

In the same way that if a rat gets shocked repeatedly it will cease the behavior that gets it shocked, my punishments are intended to shock and sting.

To me, my punishments work because they accomplish what is intended.

Master punishes me with 'beatings' using a crop (which i do NOT like) and i know the difference between when He does that and when He uses something i like. He won't use the toys i like to punish me, because, well that wouldn't make sense. He found out i do not like the crop, so He used it to His advantage, and trust me, i got NO pleasure out of being punished with it. but His punishments are not always physical, it's whatever He feels fits at that moment

 

[lil_slave_rose]

all couples punish each other to some extent, although they might not realize it.. for example, many people in relationships withhold love from their partner after a fight.. this is a form of punishment even though it's not spelled out as such.. these kinds of punishments are never fun..

however, a playful punishment sounds like it could be a lot of fun! I've toyed with the idea of going out on a date with my wife and giving her the power to punish me at will.. for example, attach one of those remote control shock collars to my balls and my wife would have the remote.. any time I neglected to treat her like a princess (neglecting to open the door for her, failing to keep her entertained with interesting conversation, etc) she could punish me by administering electric shocks.. I'd consider trying this sometime, although I don't know for certain how badly it would actually hurt..

see, this i don't agree with..and this is MY opinion and i'm speaking of our relationship only, but punishment is not supposed to be 'fun' or 'play' when i get punished it's for something i've done that has displeased my Master and i do not expect Him to react with something 'fun' i'm not learning to correct the behavior if i enjoy whatever it is He 'punishes' me with. maybe it comes down to different ideas of 'punishment' but when i hear that word, i wince because i think of unpleasant things, and not only that..but that i have upset/displeased my Master in some way, and that, in turn makes me sad and punish myself.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Yes. Namely, it depends on what you consider to be "punishment". As I said in a previous post, for a masochist there is no worse punishment than to be left alone. IE: not touched. In that sense, "punishment" and "correction" would be one in the same.

But, it's my opinion that many people who play D/s online ( ) think "being punished" is spanking, hair pulling, whipping, and so on... They think if they're a brat or disobedient on purpose they'll receive those things (most often things they're craving).

Just goes to show that those who think D/s is a game have no idea what they're doing!

you made some pretty big generalizations there. i'm a masochist and i don't agree that the worst punishment (for me) is to not be touched. the worst punishment for me is to hear those words 'i'm disappointed in you' or even worse, to not hear him say anything at all. then of course is the crop, which i do NOT like at all, so it's used for punishment. no spankings are not used as punishment for me because i like it and i'm not sure i would be able to distinguish the difference between 'punishment' spanking and 'fun' spanking, but i know other submissives who do. i also don't think that just because someone is in an LDR or an online D/s relationship that they are 'playing D/s' and what works for them as punishment may very well be 'hair pulling, spanking,whipping etc...'

 

[BedtimeStories77]

you made some pretty big generalizations there. i'm a masochist and i don't agree that the worst punishment (for me) is to not be touched. the worst punishment for me is to hear those words 'i'm disappointed in you' or even worse, to not hear him say anything at all. then of course is the crop, which i do NOT like at all, so it's used for punishment. no spankings are not used as punishment for me because i like it and i'm not sure i would be able to distinguish the difference between 'punishment' spanking and 'fun' spanking, but i know other submissives who do. i also don't think that just because someone is in an LDR or an online D/s relationship that they are 'playing D/s' and what works for them as punishment may very well be 'hair pulling, spanking,whipping etc...'

Fair enough.

 

[serijules]

In my opinion you all REALLY make this far more complicated than it needs to be, heh.

Punishment works in some relationships. Those that it works for understand why it does. Those that don't have a place for it in their relationships will rarely understand why it works for those that respect its use. It doesn't always mean the submissive is manipulative, dysfunctional, selfish, bratty, immature, childish or what have you. Most people don't enjoy being punished and if they do, it's roleplay, which is also perfectly acceptable.

This is one of those topics where I honestly don't understand why so many people have such a negative attitude towards it or why it needs to be made into something so much larger than it is. I see it as extremely simplistic and easy to understand. It fits rather nicely in with the kind of exchange that many people in the lifestyle have. Most relationships have some form of it, but people balk at the word "punishment". Training, correction, discipline, punishment...whatever you call the blasted thing, most relationships have some form of it in my opinion. Just like everything else in the lifestyle, it simply exists in different forms with different definitions for those involved.

Our lifestyle is eternally flexible. So are the terms used to express it.

 

[the captians wench]

In my opinion you all REALLY make this far more complicated than it needs to be, heh.

.

We make everything far more complicated than it needs to be. *giggles* if we didn't we'd have some pretty short threads.

 

[JMohegan]

In my opinion you all REALLY make this far more complicated than it needs to be, heh.

Punishment works in some relationships. Those that it works for understand why it does. Those that don't have a place for it in their relationships will rarely understand why it works for those that respect its use. It doesn't always mean the submissive is manipulative, dysfunctional, selfish, bratty, immature, childish or what have you. Most people don't enjoy being punished and if they do, it's roleplay, which is also perfectly acceptable.

This is one of those topics where I honestly don't understand why so many people have such a negative attitude towards it or why it needs to be made into something so much larger than it is. I see it as extremely simplistic and easy to understand. It fits rather nicely in with the kind of exchange that many people in the lifestyle have. Most relationships have some form of it, but people balk at the word "punishment". Training, correction, discipline, punishment...whatever you call the blasted thing, most relationships have some form of it in my opinion. Just like everything else in the lifestyle, it simply exists in different forms with different definitions for those involved.

Our lifestyle is eternally flexible. So are the terms used to express it.

Serijules, as I have said many times on this board, you write with great dignity and clarity on the subject of punishment in D/s relationships. I really don't see how someone could read your posts on the subject and fail to understand how and why punishment works for some, and why the existence of punishment in a relationship does not always mean that the submissive is manipulative, dysfunctional, etc.

As to your point about language, I agree that the terms are flexible in the sense that they are used in different ways by different people. However, focusing on language as the key difference misses something important here.

The key difference I see is in temperment and attitudes. Not vocabulary.

If a partner misjudges how long it will take to prepare a meal and dinner is late, when she explains that to me I do not get angry or disappointed in her. I don't need a way to deal with negative emotions in this case because, for me, they just aren't generated by this type of situation.

If she tells me that she drove all the way home and then realized she forgot to wear her seatbelt, once again this is not something that would make me angry or disappointed. I understand how that could happen, because - guess what? I sometimes forget things too.

I am not perfect. I make human mistakes all the time. My partners do too. This is part of life, as I see it, and I am just not a guy who gets worked up by this sort of thing.

What *does* get me angry or disappointed is willful disobedience or overt disrespect. But these things have been rare or nonexistent in my relationships because my partners, like you, have been respectful women who try as hard as they can to please.

If someone needs a Dominant who reacts to mistakes and imperfections with negative emotions and a firm hand, then I am just not the right Dominant for her. It doesn't mean that either of us are inadequate. It simply means that we would be poorly matched.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Punishment is a tool of this lifestyle, no more and no less. Like any other tool, no Dominant is required to use it in any or every situation. Sometimes, a box end wrench is what works, whilst others prefer an open end wrench.

In MY case, in MY relationship with rose, (THIS IS NOT MEANT TO APPLY TO ANY OTHER BDSM RELATIONSHIP THAN MY OWN WITH ROSE, AS THIS IS STRICTLY MY OPINION AND NOT TO BE TAKEN AS A UNIVERSAL TRUTH) there are times when punishment is necessary. (I know you are going to disagree with this JM as you so vociferously did in the abuse thread, but I don't care what you think of me, so I will continue unabated) What I am saying is that there are times when she slips away from her place, and needs something to be a jolting reminder. For us that happens to be a riding crop across the ass, as it gets her attention quick and lets her know that the behaviour in question is not pleasing to me. We then go from there as I teach her correct behaviour that is pleasing.

As I said in the other thread, ****I DO NOT ENJOY PUNISHING MY ROSE**** but there are times that it is needed to maintain the power structure of our relationship. I have employed a physical punishment at times because it was what worked best at that time, as well as assignments and restrictions based on what was needed at that particular time.

***AUTHOR'S NOTE*** THE ABOVE WAS MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION BASED ON MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY OWN SLAVE, AND IS NOT MEANT TO APPLY TO ANY OTHER RELATIONSHIP OR REVEAL ANY UNIVERSAL TRUTH ABOUT BDSM **END AUTHOR'S NOTE***

 

[JMohegan]

Punishment is a tool of this lifestyle, no more and no less. Like any other tool, no Dominant is required to use it in any or every situation. Sometimes, a box end wrench is what works, whilst others prefer an open end wrench.

In MY case, in MY relationship with rose, (THIS IS NOT MEANT TO APPLY TO ANY OTHER BDSM RELATIONSHIP THAN MY OWN WITH ROSE, AS THIS IS STRICTLY MY OPINION AND NOT TO BE TAKEN AS A UNIVERSAL TRUTH) there are times when punishment is necessary. (I know you are going to disagree with this JM as you so vociferously did in the abuse thread, but I don't care what you think of me, so I will continue unabated) What I am saying is that there are times when she slips away from her place, and needs something to be a jolting reminder. For us that happens to be a riding crop across the ass, as it gets her attention quick and lets her know that the behaviour in question is not pleasing to me. We then go from there as I teach her correct behaviour that is pleasing.

As I said in the other thread, ****I DO NOT ENJOY PUNISHING MY ROSE**** but there are times that it is needed to maintain the power structure of our relationship. I have employed a physical punishment at times because it was what worked best at that time, as well as assignments and restrictions based on what was needed at that particular time.

***AUTHOR'S NOTE*** THE ABOVE WAS MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION BASED ON MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY OWN SLAVE, AND IS NOT MEANT TO APPLY TO ANY OTHER RELATIONSHIP OR REVEAL ANY UNIVERSAL TRUTH ABOUT BDSM **END AUTHOR'S NOTE***

Actually, Phoenix, as long as you acknowledge that punishment in your relationship reflects your personal choice and judgment, then I see no difference between your statement that punishment is necessary for you to effectively dominate Rose and my statement in post 49 that punishment is not necessary for me to effectively dominate my partners.

The statement of yours to which I objected on the other thread was: "I do things to punish her, but I don't really like to. But there are times when it has to be done."

I acknowledged that you do not enjoy punishment in the sense of getting your rocks off in the moment or being happy about the fact that she disappointed you.

However, as a general rule Dominants don't do things they dislike without a good reason, and one that serves their own needs. I was pressing you to explain what that reason might be.

I was pressing because your statement at the time applied to corporal punishment, and the topic of the thread was abuse. As I stated on that thread, if ever there was a topic warranting frank and full disclosure of the issues involved, surely the delivery of genuine pain to a partner is it.

 

[serijules]

We make everything far more complicated than it needs to be. *giggles* if we didn't we'd have some pretty short threads.

*sigh* I know, I know LOL. I was tired and crabby from a rather crappy birthday yesterday and just felt like telling everyone off for annoying me I think LOL.

I clash with this board in the sense that I am perfectly happy with flexing and bending the English language to mold into my relationship and my life. I'm ok with that and personally feel it's a waste of time to try to Webster-ize everything when relating it to a lifestyle that has no real place in the dictionary. Like a line from a popular country song says; "Old Mister Webster could never define, what's being said between your heart and mine..."

 

[skittles_lm]

This is such a good point. I'd prefer a clear punishment to passive agressive I'm-not-talking-to-you-but-I-won't-say-why vanilla crap. Er, you know, just generally speaking.

And I'm another person who dreads being told they have disappointed someone. I can listen to someone yell at me all day, but to hear I've disappointed them? Awful.

Me too. And for me, the most effective punishment by far is to be ignored. Even if for a set amount of time, two days feels like two years when not only am I a disappointment, but i cannot grovel or be proactive about it at all for the allotted time. Sheer agony.

 

[FluteMaster]

Me too. And for me, the most effective punishment by far is to be ignored. Even if for a set amount of time, two days feels like two years when not only am I a disappointment, but i cannot grovel or be proactive about it at all for the allotted time. Sheer agony.

If ever there was a case of "Horses for Courses" it's in the area of the way a PYL and pyl resolve issues where the pyl doesn't meet the expectations of the PYL for whatever reason.

However, maybe there is also an aspect to punishment which hasn't been spotted. A physical punishment like a cropping may actually be what the pyl wants/needs - but not for pleasure, but for a deeper release. They know thatey have done wrong, and they are hurt to high heaven that they have let down their PYL.

The cropping, in this case, may be seen as a way of crystalising that self hurt, and resolving it. Then they can move forward.

And personally, (with a wave of greeting to Skittles) I could never use withdrawal of contact as a punishment. Having suffered withdrawal of love and knowing its effects, I would see its use as a apunishment as emotional abuse. A PYL may be so hurt that they withdraw into a cave to deal with their feelings, but I would personally hate to see it being used deliberately as a form of control.

 

[serijules]

Serijules, as I have said many times on this board, you write with great dignity and clarity on the subject of punishment in D/s relationships. I really don't see how someone could read your posts on the subject and fail to understand how and why punishment works for some, and why the existence of punishment in a relationship does not always mean that the submissive is manipulative, dysfunctional, etc.

As to your point about language, I agree that the terms are flexible in the sense that they are used in different ways by different people. However, focusing on language as the key difference misses something important here.

The key difference I see is in temperment and attitudes. Not vocabulary.

If a partner misjudges how long it will take to prepare a meal and dinner is late, when she explains that to me I do not get angry or disappointed in her. I don't need a way to deal with negative emotions in this case because, for me, they just aren't generated by this type of situation.

If she tells me that she drove all the way home and then realized she forgot to wear her seatbelt, once again this is not something that would make me angry or disappointed. I understand how that could happen, because - guess what? I sometimes forget things too.

I am not perfect. I make human mistakes all the time. My partners do too. This is part of life, as I see it, and I am just not a guy who gets worked up by this sort of thing.

What *does* get me angry or disappointed is willful disobedience or overt disrespect. But these things have been rare or nonexistent in my relationships because my partners, like you, have been respectful women who try as hard as they can to please.

If someone needs a Dominant who reacts to mistakes and imperfections with negative emotions and a firm hand, then I am just not the right Dominant for her. It doesn't mean that either of us are inadequate. It simply means that we would be poorly matched.

Although I am quoting you, I am not necessarily wording my reply here directed at you...your words just inspired some of my trains of thought so I wanted to quote them.

Ma'am is pretty darn lenient of mistakes and forgetfulness...to a point. I have memory problems associated with a head injury I suffered years ago, so sometimes remembering things can be very hard for me. However, I have been taught to utilize ways of prompting my brain to remember things, and failing to take advantage of those methods is what can and likely will result in a punishment rather than simply making the mistake.

Lets use the seatbelt for example. If I drove all the way home from work and realize I forgot my seatbelt and admitted this to Ma'am as required...she would not likely respond with more than a nod to indicate she heard me. She has trained me well enough to expect that I will make the effort on my own to not repeat the mistake. Still, I am human and don't always make the best decisions, so if I make the wrong one for the wrong reasons, that is what will eventually lead to punishment.

The one time I got punished for not wearing my seatbelt was because I didn't make enough effort to take advantage of reminders for myself (putting a sticky note on the dash) and ended up dropping out of the habit of wearing it for an unacceptable length of time. It went beyound the scope of making a mistake, but yet wasn't willful disobedience either. I wasn't failing to wear the belt because I wanted to manipulate a reaction out of her or was intentionally ignoring her orders....I was careless with her property and lazy to boot. Thus, I was punished. Or disciplined. Or whatever you want to call it. We know what it is and why we do it, so what we call it really doesn't matter.

Some dominants would have apparently ended the relationship or decided I was no longer the right submissive for them or any number of other negative reactions. To us, it isn't even an option to react like that because we really care about each other, mistakes and bad decisions and all...so we find other ways of dealing with the imperfections and moments of stupid decision making. Punishment fits that need. Neither of us enjoy it - although I am aware that there are many people out there that roleplay punishment and DO enjoy it...that is not punishment IMO, it is roleplay and people often mix the two up which is where a lot of negativity stems from.

We don't enjoy dealing with the moments of depression that both of us fall into at times either. Nor do we enjoy the times when miscommunication happens that result in hurt feelings that need to be solved by uncomfortable talks. We deal with them despite not enjoying them because it helps keep our relationship stable and healthy in the long run, which IS worth doing things we may not enjoy or want to do. The real punishment of the whole thing is the disappointment, as many have said. The physical aspect of punishment is added in for us because like I've said in the past....it helps me let go of guilt and it helps Ma'am let go of anger by beating on my ass with a fucking hairbrush. Simple as that.

It's not for everyone, and that IS fine. What bothers me is when people explain why its not for them with a snotty, judgmental tone that implies anyone that does utilize punishment is somehow fake or manipulative or not submissive enough or some other such bullshit. I'm not singling out anyone in this thread, it's just an attitude I see often overall in the lifestyle on this topic. Like JM said "The key difference I see is in temperment and attitudes. Not vocabulary." I agree...but some of those temperaments and attitudes makes me feel defensive and just plain pissy because they come across as insulting by people who admittedly don't even have practical experience with the method. So that's where my, well, defensiveness and pissyness in regards to this topic comes from

 

[Kailey_86]

This might not be the right place for this but i had an epiphany and i wanted to share it.

i just realized something that explains a lot. For a little while i was being a brat so i would get punished. i was upset by my own actions because i don't want to disappoint J. At first i thought it was because the masochist in me wanted to be spanked. That was part of it. Something still didn't feel right though. It ran deeper than just wanting a spanking. i remember now that when i was a kid my stepdad used to say he punished me because he loved me. i think i connect punishment with love now. i guess i need J to punish me, not in play, to know that He truly cares for me. When i disappoint Him but i am not punished for it, i guess i connect that with Him not caring. Obviously that isn't the case. i think one good punishment would get it through my head that He truly cares and isn't just saying it. i KNOW He is telling me the truth but some part of me won't believe it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

What *does* get me angry or disappointed is willful disobedience or overt disrespect. But these things have been rare or nonexistent in my relationships because my partners, like you, have been respectful women who try as hard as they can to please.

See JM, this is what I was referring to when I hinted at your making judgements about subs who you feel are not right for you...if they are not the type sub you would choose, you tend to attach negative traits, assumptions and comments to what you imagine must be their failings (from your POV). As a point of interest, one of the strongest points I had while looking for F was that I was not wilfully disobedient, was very respectful, and was told many a time by 20+ years RL experienced Dominants that I was one of the most submissive pyl's they had met, thus I had many good offers and met many Dominants from all corners of the globe. They also appreciated I had a brain and was very strong as a person and was very self aware about who I was and what I wanted. Those things have not changed, nor has my need to live this lifestyle 24/7 and TPE as I set out to do. Punishment is not a frequent thing in our relationship, but it is a reality we deal with and can admit to, and just as it is not your thing, it works for us and there are good reasons for it to be a tool we know is always there.

As to the seat belt example (these Pure similarities are really unsettling ), if I did that and told F I had done it, guess what, he would be very upset because in his way of thinking not only do I have a responsibility to take care of his property, but he also would not like the fact my life could have been endangered so needlessly...if he felt by punishing me it would ensure I would not do it again and thus not risk myself, he would see that as a very positive means of dealing with it as opposed to shrugging his shoulders and saying 'no worries'.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

be done.[/I]"

I acknowledged that you do not enjoy punishment in the sense of getting your rocks off in the moment or being happy about the fact that she disappointed you.

However, as a general rule Dominants don't do things they dislike without a good reason, and one that serves their own needs. I was pressing you to explain what that reason might be.

I am not answering for MP or rose, but for us the answer would be yes, it does serve a need for him and not one related to sexual turn on. As I pointed out above, it could be a case of increasing my safety, thus my being around to serve him for another day, year, decade etc. That does serve his needs, as well as mine, but I don't see that as a negative as is often inferred when talking of punishment, and it certainly is still not enjoyed by either of us even though it serves a need.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Some dominants would have apparently ended the relationship or decided I was no longer the right submissive for them or any number of other negative reactions. To us, it isn't even an option to react like that because we really care about each other, mistakes and bad decisions and all...so we find other ways of dealing with the imperfections and moments of stupid decision making. Punishment fits that need. Neither of us enjoy it - although I am aware that there are many people out there that roleplay punishment and DO enjoy it...that is not punishment IMO, it is roleplay and people often mix the two up which is where a lot of negativity stems from.

Great post as usual serijules, but this part really highlighted it for me and is why I pointed out earlier that none of us are perfect so there are going to be times when we do not please. It doesn't mean we do it intentionally, nor for some of us is it reason enough to end what overall is a very deep and caring relationship full of commitment and responsibility on both sides of the whip. If some do not like punishment, fine, but that does not mean those of us who do see a purpose for it are deliberately disobedient or lacking the correct frame of mind to be part of a serious D/s relationship.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Although I am quoting you, I am not necessarily wording my reply here directed at you...your words just inspired some of my trains of thought so I wanted to quote them.

Ma'am is pretty darn lenient of mistakes and forgetfulness...to a point. I have memory problems associated with a head injury I suffered years ago, so sometimes remembering things can be very hard for me. However, I have been taught to utilize ways of prompting my brain to remember things, and failing to take advantage of those methods is what can and likely will result in a punishment rather than simply making the mistake.

Lets use the seatbelt for example. If I drove all the way home from work and realize I forgot my seatbelt and admitted this to Ma'am as required...she would not likely respond with more than a nod to indicate she heard me. She has trained me well enough to expect that I will make the effort on my own to not repeat the mistake. Still, I am human and don't always make the best decisions, so if I make the wrong one for the wrong reasons, that is what will eventually lead to punishment.

The one time I got punished for not wearing my seatbelt was because I didn't make enough effort to take advantage of reminders for myself (putting a sticky note on the dash) and ended up dropping out of the habit of wearing it for an unacceptable length of time. It went beyound the scope of making a mistake, but yet wasn't willful disobedience either. I wasn't failing to wear the belt because I wanted to manipulate a reaction out of her or was intentionally ignoring her orders....I was careless with her property and lazy to boot. Thus, I was punished. Or disciplined. Or whatever you want to call it. We know what it is and why we do it, so what we call it really doesn't matter.

Some dominants would have apparently ended the relationship or decided I was no longer the right submissive for them or any number of other negative reactions. To us, it isn't even an option to react like that because we really care about each other, mistakes and bad decisions and all...so we find other ways of dealing with the imperfections and moments of stupid decision making. Punishment fits that need. Neither of us enjoy it - although I am aware that there are many people out there that roleplay punishment and DO enjoy it...that is not punishment IMO, it is roleplay and people often mix the two up which is where a lot of negativity stems from.

We don't enjoy dealing with the moments of depression that both of us fall into at times either. Nor do we enjoy the times when miscommunication happens that result in hurt feelings that need to be solved by uncomfortable talks. We deal with them despite not enjoying them because it helps keep our relationship stable and healthy in the long run, which IS worth doing things we may not enjoy or want to do. The real punishment of the whole thing is the disappointment, as many have said. The physical aspect of punishment is added in for us because like I've said in the past....it helps me let go of guilt and it helps Ma'am let go of anger by beating on my ass with a fucking hairbrush. Simple as that.

It's not for everyone, and that IS fine. What bothers me is when people explain why its not for them with a snotty, judgmental tone that implies anyone that does utilize punishment is somehow fake or manipulative or not submissive enough or some other such bullshit. I'm not singling out anyone in this thread, it's just an attitude I see often overall in the lifestyle on this topic. Like JM said "The key difference I see is in temperment and attitudes. Not vocabulary." I agree...but some of those temperaments and attitudes makes me feel defensive and just plain pissy because they come across as insulting by people who admittedly don't even have practical experience with the method. So that's where my, well, defensiveness and pissyness in regards to this topic comes from

Seri, that's cool. I'm speaking to my personal experiences with the concept and my personal dislike of it. I'll also grant that not every person is perfect for every situation - if I were with someone who really thrived with these touchstone moments of organized discipline I'd probably like it more myself. But I don't care for it and I don't find it useful with the people I happen to be with now, and my track record with people who really looked for it a lot or saw my use or lack of interest in punishment as a kind of Dominant litmus test has been kind of annoying.

 

[Netzach]

See JM, this is what I was referring to when I hinted at your making judgements about subs who you feel are not right for you...if they are not the type sub you would choose, you tend to attach negative traits, assumptions and comments to what you imagine must be their failings (from your POV). As a point of interest, one of the strongest points I had while looking for F was that I was not wilfully disobedient, was very respectful, and was told many a time by 20+ years RL experienced Dominants that I was one of the most submissive pyl's they had met, thus I had many good offers and met many Dominants from all corners of the globe. They also appreciated I had a brain and was very strong as a person and was very self aware about who I was and what I wanted. Those things have not changed, nor has my need to live this lifestyle 24/7 and TPE as I set out to do. Punishment is not a frequent thing in our relationship, but it is a reality we deal with and can admit to, and just as it is not your thing, it works for us and there are good reasons for it to be a tool we know is always there.

As to the seat belt example (these Pure similarities are really unsettling ), if I did that and told F I had done it, guess what, he would be very upset because in his way of thinking not only do I have a responsibility to take care of his property, but he also would not like the fact my life could have been endangered so needlessly...if he felt by punishing me it would ensure I would not do it again and thus not risk myself, he would see that as a very positive means of dealing with it as opposed to shrugging his shoulders and saying 'no worries'.

Catalina

There is a third alternative which is just stating that and expecting a positive response. Why is it snotty or pissy of me to *expect my partner to respect my concern about his person enough to just do it* and feel like I'm being cornered or manipulated if it has to be a bigger deal than that? Communicating the concern and expecting a positive response without instituting punishment/consequence etc. is not shrugging and going "no BFD."

 

[JMohegan]

Neither of us enjoy it - although I am aware that there are many people out there that roleplay punishment and DO enjoy it...that is not punishment IMO, it is roleplay and people often mix the two up which is where a lot of negativity stems from.

Perhaps so. However, I also see a lot of negativity, or rather misunderstanding, generated from two other sources as well.

The first of these is generated by *some* of the D/s relationships in which paternalism is a fundamental aspect of the dynamic. (I apologize for the gender-specific root of that word, but can't think of a better one at the moment.)

I am not solely referring to Daddy-Dom dynamics, but more broadly to the Dominant/little one dynamic, relationships in which the Dominant's role is perceived as nurturing & guiding the submissive, etc.

Among these types of relationships, some (but obviously not all) of the submissives talk and behave very much like children and are treated as the same by their Dominants, and punishment is nearly always presented as a key part of the dynamic in these cases.

Depending on the venue, the proportion of relationships involving child-like submissives to all relationships involving punishment may appear quite low or rather overwhelmingly high.

The childlike behavior of some is not wrong or unsubmissive as long as the Dominant appreciates and accepts it. But it does explain some of the perceptions that develop about D/s-style punishment overall.

The second source of misunderstanding stems from the fact that there are submissives who deliberately challenge or test their Dominants by acting out, in some cases on a regular or at least periodic basis.

Again, this is not wrong as long as the Dominant appreciates and accepts this type of opportunity to, as Netzach put it, "reaffirm and reassert status quo". But this clearly *is* manipulation. It *is* willful disobedience.

The existence of "make-me" submissives, and the Dominants who appreciate them, explain some of the perceptions that develop about D/s-style punishment too.

 

[the captians wench]

*sigh* I know, I know LOL. I was tired and crabby from a rather crappy birthday yesterday and just felt like telling everyone off for annoying me I think LOL.

I clash with this board in the sense that I am perfectly happy with flexing and bending the English language to mold into my relationship and my life. I'm ok with that and personally feel it's a waste of time to try to Webster-ize everything when relating it to a lifestyle that has no real place in the dictionary. Like a line from a popular country song says; "Old Mister Webster could never define, what's being said between your heart and mine..."

*hugs* Well happy birthday anyway.

I'm not really all about webster's deffs either. I often use a more generalized word when I could use something more specific, or use a broader deffinition that one might normally. Used to drive my ex batty! But I don't see the reason for samantics. *shrug* If you know what I mean, then why should I have to make myself more clear? (and that's what drove me batty about my ex...one of many things anyway 8giggles*)