Punishment vs. Discipline

[P. B. Walker]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Punishment

If they willfully lie or deviate from the agreed upon boundaries of our relationship, they are gone.

All they have to do is keep their word. anything else, like traffic is beneath my notice. I do not sweat the small stuff.

Eb

Yes, I can't help but agree. Major things like lying should be treated very harshly or else the trust is gone. And I can totally see why you use dismissal... once the trust is gone... it's gone. Trust is a fragile thing.

PBW

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Punishment

Eb, how do you differeniate between willful disobediance and unintential disobediance? For example, say the sub walks in one day, totally ignoring the rule to disrobe and then addresses you in a non-honorary manner.

First of all, I take a great deal of time to train my subs. When in training, subs are corrected and not punished. However, the tasks they are set are not so hard that they cannot do them correctly in a short time. We do not live together, and so rules re few, cause I only make rules I know I can enforce.

So none of my subs have ruined a ritual. Why? Cause for one thing sissy has been mine for almost two years. He and I know each other quite well and he knows what I mean when I say certain things to him.

bb is newer, but he asks for information BEFORE offending Me. And and my last sub is the newest and he is being trained.

So your example would never happen. Not in a million years cause he would be told to leave and don't let the door hit his skinny ass on the way out. Next!

Eb




I would call this willful disobediance and grounds for dismissal (at your discretion of course). That example is pretty clear cut. But what about the times when the sub was presented with a situation where they had to make a decision of the lesser evil. Meaning, they knew they had to break Rule A in order to comply with Rule B. So they may choose to break Rule A because they think Rule B is more important to you. The believe they are doing good by not breaking the greater rule. I can't think of a real world example right off the top of my head, but I'm sure one exists.

I understand you have part-time subs, so they maybe not be overburden with rules to the point that they would run into this situation. But I was wondering, if you would use punishment in a similar situation... a situation where they did not willfully disobey.

Gawd, I got long winded on that. Sorry.

PBW [/B]

 

[Ebonyfire]

Cross Purposes

PBW wrote:

I understand you have part-time subs, so they maybe not be overburden with rules to the point that they would run into this situation. But I was wondering, if you would use punishment in a similar situation... a situation where they did not willfully disobey.

To me, punishment is at cross purposes of what I am about as a Domme.

I desire service from a submissive. I have defined what that is, and I have defined what that is not.

So when a sub decided he wants to serve Me, he has tasks and duties I require. Punishment does not help Me get the superior service I desire. Direction and control does. Punishment is just not effective over time. My aim is effective service over time, over the long run.


Eb

 

[zipman]

Re: Cross Purposes

PBW wrote:

I understand you have part-time subs, so they maybe not be overburden with rules to the point that they would run into this situation. But I was wondering, if you would use punishment in a similar situation... a situation where they did not willfully disobey.

To me, punishment is at cross purposes of what I am about as a Domme.

I desire service from a submissive. I have defined what that is, and I have defined what that is not.

So when a sub decided he wants to serve Me, he has tasks and duties I require. Punishment does not help Me get the superior service I desire. Direction and control does. Punishment is just not effective over time. My aim is effective service over time, over the long run.


Eb

I think the kind of relationship that you have also determines the appropriateness for either discipline or punishment.

Eb has basically service subs that she is not romantically involved with. Therefore, her screening process with regard to BDSM is more complete and her choice of just letting a sub go as opposed to punishing them is, to a degree, somewhat easier than when you are romantically involved with a sub.

For me, my relationship with my sub comes first, and BDSM comes second, so I am willing to use punishment, if discipline alone does not work, to correct bad behavior.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Cross Purposes

I think the kind of relationship that you have also determines the appropriateness for either discipline or punishment.

Eb has basically service subs that she is not romantically involved with. Therefore, her screening process with regard to BDSM is more complete and her choice of just letting a sub go as opposed to punishing them is, to a degree, somewhat easier than when you are romantically involved with a sub.

For me, my relationship with my sub comes first, and BDSM comes second, so I am willing to use punishment, if discipline alone does not work, to correct bad behavior.

Exactly.

You have to look at the basic relationship. What is the nature of the primary relationship?

Having a primary D/s relationship does not mean that we do not care about each other, it just means we have do not have the same needs for companionship and love.

 

[The G]

I do agree with all who have posted on this thread. And it is truly based on the nature of the bdsm relationship.
I tend to never use physical punishment because she likes to much. Instead I use the "invisible presence", which means that I dont acknowledge her presence in mine. Sometimes, since she enjoys sexual self gratification, I deny her that as well......Discipline on the other hand is something I use for training purposes....and with that I take it beyond the point of exciting her but to a state of pain........but I will also use it for her pleasure and mine as well......

Yes, all of you are correct......the question is........Is there a right way or a wrong way? I believe when you use either of them in a wrong fashion then it can and will be a bad situation for both of you........

The G

 

[Ebonyfire]

Bump

 

[MissTaken]

Some thoughts on discipline:

Since the inception of this thread, I have had the opportunity to explore this area a bit further.

Discipline is certainly not only about correcting wrongs, but teaching, mentoring and stating one's expectations clearly.

Discipline may involve
`how you address your Dom/me
`any small rituals that you engage in. Does He/She expect you to wait until they have begun eating before you do?
`Orgasm control. Restrictions on masturbation and orgasm are lessons in self discipline.
~Journalling: an excercise in discipline to the degree that it mandates submission on a daily basis as well as whatever your tasks are...they may have something to do with helping you to learn discipline.
~How do you present yourself to your Dom/me? Whether it is by formal presentation or simply how you dress to please, there may be a discipline factor there.

For me it is only necessary to speak to me in a disppointed tone to make me want to change a behavior.

I wonder if for others, this may seem that I am too soft or too agreeable?

Hmm struggling to find the word I am looking for.

 

[FungiUg]

Some thoughts on discipline:

Since the inception of this thread, I have had the opportunity to explore this area a bit further.

Discipline is certainly not only about correcting wrongs, but teaching, mentoring and stating one's expectations clearly.

Discipline may involve
`how you address your Dom/me
`any small rituals that you engage in. Does He/She expect you to wait until they have begun eating before you do?
`Orgasm control. Restrictions on masturbation and orgasm are lessons in self discipline.
~Journalling: an excercise in discipline to the degree that it mandates submission on a daily basis as well as whatever your tasks are...they may have something to do with helping you to learn discipline.
~How do you present yourself to your Dom/me? Whether it is by formal presentation or simply how you dress to please, there may be a discipline factor there.

For me it is only necessary to speak to me in a disppointed tone to make me want to change a behavior.

I wonder if for others, this may seem that I am too soft or too agreeable?

Hmm struggling to find the word I am looking for.

MissT, I can only but agree. For me discipline is a positive thing. I use it because I enjoy it -- teaching and training a submissive woman to experience the depths of her sexuality requires discipline.

That includes ritual behaivour. Which can be as simple as looking in the mirror every morning and sating "Today, I am going to be a slut!" or masturbating every night while chanting "I am a slut."

How they dress is also an important form of discipline. I like submissives to dress as the slut I wish them to be. That may involve a gradual extension. Start out simple, then gradually add to it. I loved your story about the high heels!

Orgasm control is something I tend to reserve for occasional use rather than frequent. Actually, I will use this as a form of punishment as well. I will more often use orgasm quotas -- require a minimum of 10 orgasms per day, or one orgasm per waking hour, that sort of thing.

I have used journalling, but not for my direct benefit. I asked one particular submissive to keep a private journal, which she hasn't shared with me. Because I place a great deal stress on consensuality, I have used this as a tool to remind the submissive of why she has chosen to serve.

Punishment on the other hand, depends on the submissive and I try to match the punishment to the crime (as it were.) So it might be spanking (some submissives enjoy being spanked, so I wouldn't use that in such a case.) It might be reduced contact (or no contact until a contrite apology is received.)

I also always make a point of showing my disappointment in my tone. I do not lose my temper however. For me, even when a submissive has done something wrong, she should still feel safe. And if I lose my temper, I can easily destroy that feeling of safety.

I have to admit I regard myself as a softie, and I'm not really into S&M at all beyond light spanking and some biting. I would imagine that punishments from a Dominant who was more into S&M would be much more physical.

I also admit that I like to play mind games... and I have deliberately placed a submissive in a situation where she couldn't help but break a rule, and hence incur punishment. (I may be a softie, but I can be mean with it... *chuckle*)

 

[T.J. Jackson]

Some thoughts on discipline:

Since the inception of this thread, I have had the opportunity to explore this area a bit further.

Discipline is certainly not only about correcting wrongs, but teaching, mentoring and stating one's expectations clearly.

Discipline may involve
`how you address your Dom/me
`any small rituals that you engage in. Does He/She expect you to wait until they have begun eating before you do?
`Orgasm control. Restrictions on masturbation and orgasm are lessons in self discipline.
~Journalling: an excercise in discipline to the degree that it mandates submission on a daily basis as well as whatever your tasks are...they may have something to do with helping you to learn discipline.
~How do you present yourself to your Dom/me? Whether it is by formal presentation or simply how you dress to please, there may be a discipline factor there.

For me it is only necessary to speak to me in a disppointed tone to make me want to change a behavior.

I wonder if for others, this may seem that I am too soft or too agreeable?

Hmm struggling to find the word I am looking for.

Interesting thread. Since I am new to this world and still exploring I like to read threads like this. It helps me understand the difference between punishment and discipline. I now have a better understanding of it but I would appreciate some more examples to help create the behavior I desire from my submissive.

I especially like the few examples given so far about standing against a wall for 20 minutes and telling my submissive I will be imagining her friend....those seem particularly effective.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Interesting thread. Since I am new to this world and still exploring I like to read threads like this. It helps me understand the difference between punishment and discipline. I now have a better understanding of it but I would appreciate some more examples to help create the behavior I desire from my submissive.

I especially like the few examples given so far about standing against a wall for 20 minutes and telling my submissive I will be imagining her friend....those seem particularly effective.

To me, it is a matter of direction. Is your sub heading in the direction he/she needs to go in? Discipline can be a tool to direct a sub in the desired direction.

 

[zipman]

Another aspect of this conversation is that some subs like the idea of "being punished." A spanking to "punish" them is more enjoyable than one merely for the dom/me's pleasure or even for discipline.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Another aspect of this conversation is that some subs like the idea of "being punished." A spanking to "punish" them is more enjoyable than one merely for the dom/me's pleasure or even for discipline.

One of the most annoying questions that can be asked is "Will you punish me if I do [insert something here]?

All I do is make a mental note not to discipline under that circumstance.

 

[Justina123]

Originally posted by TJ Jackson:

I would appreciate some more examples to help create the behavior I desire from my submissive.

At an overnight play party once, I unfortunately was being a bit smart alecky and disrespectful in my words at breakfast. Sir knows I HATE being gagged (no physical reason why I can't be, just really really don't like ir) and he had me get a ball gag to wear during the communal breakfast (I would be able to eat afterwards). This was extremely humiliating but I have never forgotten the lesson.

An effective punishment for me is also even just a few hard spanks with the paddle with no warm up, as this is not erotic for me at all.

A former Dominant made a rule that each time I forgot to say "Sir" either in real life or online, next time we were together I would get one swat with this electric fly swatter thing, once again no warm up. Not at ALL pleasant but an extra reason to remember and form a new habit.

To me, punishment and discipline are hard to separate, they overlap so much. The promise of a punishment can be quite a motivating factor in forming a new habit, or breaking a bad one, and hence a form of discipline.... see what I mean? Overlapping terms, ha.

- justina

 

[MissTaken]

If you are told

"You have disappointed Me. There will be punishment."

How does this make you feel?
Upset with Him?
Upset with yourself?
Aroused?
All of the above?

Discuss

 

[Richard49]

Is not ll this about learning boundries and expecations?
That then requires open and honest commuications?

 

[lark sparrow]

Re: If you are told

"You have disappointed Me. There will be punishment."

How does this make you feel?
Upset with Him?
Upset with yourself?
Aroused?
All of the above?

Discuss

"you have disappointed Me" coupled with "There will be punishment." tells me that whatever I have done can be redeemed. So although I may fear the punishment, there is a sense of relief as well. It can be rectified, whatever it is - through punishment and a change of attitude or behavior.

However, punishment involves control, and may or may not involve pain or humiliation, all somewhat erotic to me, so there is a mix of emotion - regret, fear, anxiety, perhaps shame, and yes, a bit of arousal - it's definitely a mixed bag.

Usually this would be used for minor offenses, and although it is a serious punishment for an actual offense, there might be an element of "play" within it. Her attitude during the punishment very much colors my experience of it. I have yet to feel it is okay to act out to receive said punishment - as I can never be sure what punishment it may bring, and She is very clear about it not being an option to weigh the punishment, against "the crime".

Telling me that I have disappointed Her, and there will be no punishment to follow, is the worst. A lessening of Her control, and no simple, direct method of rectifying it. The next step possibly being a disappointment She may not be able or wish to forgive or get over. And of course, I never want to go there with Her. The real built-in safety feature of obeying Her, is not in punishment, but in my desire to please Her, and stay away from Her disappointment.

Usually the threat of a punishment is all it takes. I can be a pretty sassy wench at times, but we have come to understand eachother well enough, and the lines are pretty clear. I don't break Her rules, although I do scoot my toe a fraction of an inch across the line at times being "cute", resulting more in shared playfulness than actual offense.

 

[Netzach]

A Different Outlook

In my relationships I think this is a bit different.

Whereas a lot of people will have the "always clean shaven RULE and consequences for NOT being clean shaven!"
That holds negative appeal for me on the scale. Big time.

With me it's like this. I like my boy shaved below the eyebrows. He likes himself that way, too. He shaves below the eyebrows. If in some circumstance he's stubbly, it's safe for me to assume that's because he just got razor rash or red bumpies about the groin or he's been too hurried in the morning for work (stubbly bothers me a LOT less than late for work, Late for work makes me disappointed) I know that the shaven state will resume shortly and I don't feel the need to have a shit fit. I would begin to wonder if he stopped shaving altogether and I would probably re-state my preference for hairlessness, but it's never come to that because my boy knows I like it and the whole MO for him is to please me.
The rules I have are very do-able. The preferences I have are clear, and if he says he wants to honor them, he just does it, no fanfare needed.

When the rules, which are more like general life rules (late to work, late to bed, eating crap food) are broken, the ones that matter to me because they are directly related to his well being (and my MO more than anything is to see to his well being and care for what's mine) then I have the "I'm disappointed" discussion. Like rational adults. Adult to adult. There's no cathartic punishment precisely because I think that makes it easy and fake. The only catharsis is in not DOING it again.

 

[Ebonyfire]

David Stein on Discipline

Reprinted with the author's permission....

This article is called "What Slaves Need' and can be found in it's entirety in this forum in a thread of the same name. Here is the link. Can you tell I love this article?

The point I think is that discipline is controlled behaviour, and sometimes punishment is used to to achieve that end. Most of the time, it is ineffectual, (at least IMHO).

You can substitute the word submissive in place of slave and it is still valid.

DISCIPLINE
The most common slave fantasy is probably of being punished, but i think the erotic charge of this is really a metaphor for discipline, which is not the same as punishment. Discipline is controlled behavior; punishment is simply a means, and often not a very good one, of achieving discipline. Just as slaves need to obey, we need to follow rules and to push ourselves to live up to some ideal. i think every (voluntary) slave wants to be “the perfect slave” in some sense, and we need — as much as we need air and water — someone to hold out that ideal before us and challenge us to live up to it, even knowing that we’ll never actually achieve it.

If it were easy to be a slave, if anyone could do it, what would be the point? If there were no sacrifice involved, if it required nothing “above and beyond” ordinary life as a bottom-oriented leatherman or leatherdyke, why bother?

slavery is a demanding, challenging vocation, or calling, and its challenges cannot end once the slave enters into service with a Master. The Master must provide a continual challenge as well as an environment in which the slave’s discipline and dedication are continually honed. To this end, many Masters institute various rituals and protocols for their slaves to follow. These are misunderstood, i think, if they are examined too literally, and especially if the point is taken to be the inculcation of a worshipful attitude toward the Master’s person. The point is to enable the slave to develop a worshipful attitude, period. Giving the slave a framework by which to live a disciplined life of respect and dedication is the point, not feeding the Master’s ego.

Nonetheless, at the very prosaic level of “enforcement of rules,” a Master who does not notice or care about infractions is one who is shirking His duty toward His slave. It is not necessary to punish, but it is necessary to take notice of the lapse and deal with it in some definite way. slaves need to feel the Master’s eye on them continually, until it is internalized. If He cannot or will not provide discipline, He has no business owning a slave, just as a parent who will not provide it for a child is unfit for that role.

 

[WynEternal]

Re: If you are told

"You have disappointed Me. There will be punishment."

How does this make you feel?
Upset with Him?
Upset with yourself?
Aroused?
All of the above?

Discuss

The worse punishment I have ever received was being ignored by Mistress. Actually, now, I don't remember what it was I did, but I think it had something to do with self doubt. I think it was by doubting myself, I insulted the faith she placed in me. She told me that she was disappointed in me and when I got home, I wasn't allowed to talk to her or see her for a certain period of time.

I was sad, upset, depressed, and mostly, ashamed with myself. That was the worse thing that she could think of doing and it was done. There was no arguing, no raising of her voice. Just the knowledge that she was disappointed in my behaviour.

The punishment did serve to jolt me back into reality and made me realize there was a reason I was her's and that in itself made me someone special.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Bump for

 

[Richard49]

bumped

 

[KitsyKat]

Another motivation for discipline

An interesting discussion. Although my husband and I are not into discipline per se, spanking does play a role in our love making. When we were still courting, I made some sort of wise-ass comment one morning as I was getting out of bed. He feigned fury and pulled me down and put me across his lap and gave my fanny some stinging whacks. Ouch!

I had not been spanked since I was a child (and even then only two or three times) and he made me furious. The more he hit me, the more I squirmed and yelled for him to stop. Then, two things: (a) I suddenly realized that he had an erection roughly the size of the state of Idaho, and it was pressing against my naked cunt; and (b) my pussy was absolutely soaking, sopping wet, a sure indicator that I was sexually aroused. In other words, being spanked had turned me grandly, and I was loving it, even though I continued to protest and squirm to get away.

After 15 or so good ones, he turned me around in his lap so that I sat facing him. I rubbed my boobs against his face, and he reached down and slid his cock into a very receptive cunt and we fucked and fucked and fucked. When I checked my ass in the mirror later, I was astounded to see how red he had made me, and the vivid outline of his hands on my cheeks.

So spanking is now an integral part of our sexual play -- not every time we fuck, to be sure, but about once every week or ten days. At times my husband will profess to be irked at something I have done and put me over his lap. I love it when I feel his strong hands pullling up my skirt or pushing down my slacks of jeans while his other hand keeps me immobile on his lap. I make a big show out of trying to resist him physically but he is so much stronger, and bigger, than I am that I have no chance of escaping. He'll spank me through my panties, then shove them down around my ankles and continue stinging my bare ass.

We've tried variations over the year -- me naked from the waist down (or totally nude), leaning over the dining room table or the back of the couch, ass in the air; or being tied to the bedroom door, facing it, with the rope going over top so he can tie it to a robe hook. In the latter mode, he sometimes uses his belt or a ping pong paddle, but I do not get nearly as great a sensation as when he uses his bare hand.

I must confess that sometimes I will deliberately piss him off just so he will spank me. He knows why I am doing it, and he is happy to oblige.

Several years ago, when I lost my father, I felt so depressed that I made a few visits to a shrink to try to get my thoughts in order. For no particular reason, I mentioned that my husband sometimes spanked me, as my Dad had done. He claimed that I must have gotten sexually aroused from being spanked by Dad, and that I was trying to recapture the experience by provoking my husband into hitting me. I think not: the childhood spankings came when I was six or seven, and sex was not on my mind.

My own feeling? I am damned independent, and always have been. I am so far from being the classic "submisive" that I am not even on the charts. To me, being spanked is a means of turning loose of my self control and giving myself to someone I love (and getting great sex at the same time).

Earlier this year, we visited a resort in St. Martin's -- a nudist resort -- which had a private "adult" party one evening. The tableau featured a young "school girl" being spanked on-stage by a policeman. (She was in her 20s, but she dressed the part.) I had never seen another woman being spanked, and I found the sight highly arousing. He hit her hard enough with his hand to raise real welts, and she told me later that she started climaxing when he hit her for the first time and kept churning for almost half an hour. I can believe her!

Of curiosity, do any of you use spanking as part of your foreplay, where the accepting and administering of pain is part of a larger goal? By the way, I am a 37 year old married white professional woman.

Kath akaKitsyKat

 

[CutieMouse]

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