Punctuation Within Quotes

[dr_mabeuse]

Which is correct?

(A) "You're a jerk," he said.

(B) "You're a jerk." he said.

Soimewhere I read recently that a statement inside quotation marks should always end in a comma if it's followed by an attributive statement (i.e. "He said." "said she." etc.), even if it's a complete sentence.

Surely this can't be right, can it? If it is right, then how do you handle

(C) "You're a jerk!" he said.

---dr.M.

 

[Octavian]

Punctuation

Both A and C are correct.
"Why are you such a jerk?" he said. This would also have been correct.
B is incorrect. You should always use a comma unless the quote ends in an exclamation mark or a question mark.

Octavian

 

[Un-registered]

Advanced Punctuation

I was certainly taught the same as Octavian, fifty-plus years ago in the UK.

Also to be noted is the use of capitals after the attributive in continued direct speech.

D "Who are you?" he asked, "What do you want?"

E "This," he said, "is John."

D is a new sentence, whereas E is not.

For a full set of these, and other possibilities, all (intended to be) correctly done, see my chapter of The Training.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

This makes no sense to me.

I would imagine that the rationale for this rule is that if we write ["You're a jerk." he said.] it may look like two sentences. But why we should think this when ["You're a jerk!" he said.] is perfectly acceptable is beyond me.

Furthermore, by writing "You're a jerk," when the original statement was clearly a complete sentence we violate the principle of the quoatation marks, which is to set off text exactly as it was, unedited and unchanged. So if someone says, "I'm going home.", why should we change it do "I'm going home," just because an atttibutive statement follows?

---dr.M.

P.S. I don't have as much of a problem with capitalizing continued speech after an attributive, as in:

(G) "You're a jerk." he said. "Your wife is too."

because these are clearly two sentences in quotes, and we capitalize the first letter of a new sentence.

Capitalization on the continuing speech in (H) isn't so clear:

(H) "You're a jerk," he said. "Your wife is too."

 

[Un-registered]

This makes no sense to me.

I would imagine that the rationale for this rule is that if we write ["You're a jerk." he said.] it may look like two sentences. But why we should think this when ["You're a jerk!" he said.] is perfectly acceptable is beyond me.

Please, Dr.M., I would have thought you had been around long enough to know that there is little or no rationale behind punctuation (or spelling for that matter) in written English.

As I said, it is what I was taught as correct English.

To cite another authority to prove the disputed comma is right, it is what Victor Borge used.

 

[Haroldx]

I agree with Octavian and "Un-registered," which brings up another problem with quotes. How about when they're not used for dialog? Does the same rule apply? Which is correct?

A) I agree with Octavian and "Un-registered,"

or

B) I agree with Octavian and "Un-registered",

 

[TheEarl]

B. I think. I believe with quotes that the quote is sacrosanct and should not be altered in terms of punctuation, so it should go outside.

But then, I have been wrong before.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

Confirming Octavian, A and C are the correct answers.

 

[Octavian]

Does the same rule apply?

Haroldx poses another question.

I would have written it so.

I agree with Octavian and 'Un-registered'.

I only use double quotation marks (or as we say in England, speech marks) for direct quotations. If you use single quotation marks as used in the above example, the full stop or a comma, if needed, is placed outside the single quotation marks.

Octavian

 

[Un-registered]

Re: Does the same rule apply?

I only use double quotation marks (or as we say in England, speech marks) for direct quotations. If you use single quotation marks as used in the above example, the full stop or a comma, if needed, is placed outside the single quotation marks.

Unless, of course, the author is using single quotation marks to denote direct thought (as opposed to speech) as in:-

"Will you, please?" she asked.
'Fat chance,' he thought, but aloud he said, "I'll think about it."

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Does the same rule apply?

Unless, of course, the author is using single quotation marks to denote direct thought (as opposed to speech) as in:-

"Will you, please?" she asked.
'Fat chance,' he thought, but aloud he said, "I'll think about it."

_____

There are certainly country differences when it comes to applying quotation marks (especially amplified between British-speaking and USA-speaking writers). And that's why I like threads like this, since they point out regional differences in style that are often perceived as errors in writing by the ignorant or uninformed. Still other countries use a single dash and a space (— ) to set off the start of a sequence of dialogue, and guillemets (« ») for quotations within quotations.

Personally, I think the British single and double quote conventions make more sense than those used in the USA, especially at the end-of-sentence dilemmas where you have those pesky '." vs. .' " constructions.

But 99% of the conventions used in the USA have periods, commas, exclamation marks, dashes, and question marks appearing inside the quotation marks; semicolons outside. The 1% remaining exceptions are for special meaning phrases or titles of works:

What is the meaning of the term "half-truth"?

Stop whisting "All I Do Is Dream of You"!

She exclaimed, "I'm surprised at you!"—understandable under the circumstances.

My personal preference is to generally rely on the Chicago Manual of Style as my style guide. It does a good job with many examples. For interior discourse (or direct thought), CMOS doesn't use single quotes for internal thought, save for the occasional quote within a quote. Double quotes are used as the primary punctuation marks in the USA for either spoken or internal dialogue.

The following a section from The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition addresses this and gives five different examples of formats conventionally used (Manxy's comments in red italics):

INTERIOR DISCOURSE

10.43 Thought, imagined dialogue, and other interior discourse, presented in more or less conventional syntax, is often, but not always, enclosed in quotation marks. Alternatives to enclosure in quotation marks include the use of italics or plain roman type. The choice—in fiction especially, but in other writing as well—should be the author's, but consistency ought to be observed within a single work.

"I don't care if we have offended Morgenstern," thought Vera. "Besides," she told herself, "they're all fools!"
Full blown use of double quotes for interior dialog. Note also the split sentence continuation, attributive, and use of commas.

"I should have said, 'What business is it of yours!'" thought Tom.
A quote within a quote with USA convention use of single quotes within double quotes. Here the speaker is quoting himself!

I suppose he's telling her right now, "Morgenstern is not to be trusted."
Here the speaker is quoting a thought of someone else.

Francine blushed and turned away. I could die! she told herself.
Lookee here! Another popular convention: no quotes at all!

Edgar looked at her in despair and thought, Now what have I done?
Use of italics to set off internal thought. I like and use this convention in my writing.

Consistency in your writing is important. Try adopting one or several conventional styles from your country (and region), apply its rules, but be consistent in its use throughout a single story.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I sometimes do something which I think is incorrect, but makes more sense to me. I'll give you an example:

Did you just say, "you're a jerk"?

I put the ? outside of quotes because the quote is not a question, but the sentance itself is. If it *is* the proper way, I've never seen anyone else do it that way, nor have I ever seen a rule about it.

ps, I hope this is not a hijack of your thread. I do know that the the others are right about that rule though. A lot of times you can avoid this by just not having "he said" Most times its really not needed as much as people think.

Love,
sweet

 

[Guest]

I sometimes do something which I think is incorrect, but makes more sense to me. I'll give you an example:

Did you just say, "you're a jerk"?

I put the ? outside of quotes because the quote is not a question, but the sentance itself is. If it *is* the proper way, I've never seen anyone else do it that way, nor have I ever seen a rule about it.

ps, I hope this is not a hijack of your thread. I do know that the the others are right about that rule though. A lot of times you can avoid this by just not having "he said" Most times its really not needed as much as people think.

Love,
sweet

_____

Sweetnpetite, you are on the right track, but your example actually is dialogue, and should be written:
"Did you just say, 'You're a jerk'?"

This construction is addressed with other uses of the pesky question mark in the CMOS, Section 5.28. Here are six other separate examples (Manxy's comments in red):

1) The ambassador asked, "Then why, sir, are these maneuvers occurring so close to our border?"

2) Why was Farragut trembling when he said, "I'm here to open an inquiry"?
Here is an example that addresses what you were first asking about, Sweetnpetite--the question mark is for the entire sentence and is placed outside the quotation marks.

3) When Crichton was introduced to the agent (had he met him before?), he turned to his host and winked.

4) If that was the case, why did she delay answering the governor until the morning of his departure (18 March)?

5) "What do you suppose he had in mind," inquired Newman, looking puzzled, "when he said, 'You are all greater fools that I thought'?"
Here is the example, Sweetnpetite, that would apply to your piece of dialogue after my edit as suggested above.

6) "He looked at me for a long time," said Grant, "and then he said, 'Why have you bothered to tell me this, Peter?'"
Here the question mark stays within the quotation marks since the quoted dialogue was a question.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I agree with Earl whole-heartedly on the sacrosanct nature of the quotation mark as an indicator of what was literally said, and feel that this funtion takes precedence over any sort of arbitrarily chosen punctuation rules.

This puts me solidly with Sweetnpetite as well as to where final puntuation goes in a sentense containing a quote as it's last element. This:

Did you just say, "you're a jerk"?
(and I'm not sure I would even include that comma in there)

But:

I heard him shout, "You're a jerk!"

I have no comment on:

Did you just shout, "you're a jerk!"?

I guess it's okay.


As to single versus double quotation marks, I am in the middle of re-reading the fantastically excellent Aubry-Maturin series of novels by the UK's own (late) Patrick O'Brian, which contain some of the finest writing I have ever come across in any novel, and throughout the book he uses single quotes to indicate speech.

He also makes very heavy use of colons and semicolons in places where I think anyone else would have used periods. Yet he is such a great writer you don't even notice these things. I'm finding a lot more semicolons and colons now popping up in my own writing. I just wish I could absorb his vocabulary as easily. I've never seen such a brilliant and prodigious use of words.

---dr.M.

 

[sweetnpetite]

_____

Sweetnpetite, you are on the right track,

Thanks. I have always felt that it was the right way, but I've never seen anyone do it right and was starting to think I must be the one who was wrong.

BTW, it wouldn't Have to be diolog- if say it was written in first person present tense

 

[Guest]

Thanks. I have always felt that it was the right way, but I've never seen anyone do it right and was starting to think I must be the one who was wrong.

BTW, it wouldn't Have to be diolog- if say it was written in first person present tense

______

So sweetnpetite, if you're suggesting the following:

Did I just say I'm a jerk?

If so, then yes, in that particular construction, you are correct.

Lessons over for the day.

 

[Un-registered]

As to single versus double quotation marks, I am in the middle of re-reading the fantastically excellent Aubry-Maturin series of novels by the UK's own (late) Patrick O'Brian, which contain some of the finest writing I have ever come across in any novel, and throughout the book he uses single quotes to indicate speech.

I suspect that is a fad of his publisher. I think you are reading on paper, and the books have also got small margins and not very large font. All three of these foibles save paper!

ProofreadManx,

May I point out that:

Did I just say I'm a jerk?

means something very different from:

Did I just say, "I'm a jerk"?

and the inability of some of the writers on LIt to distinguish between them makes some stories very hard to read.

 

[sweetnpetite]

May I point out that:

Did I just say I'm a jerk?

means something very different from:

Did I just say, "I'm a jerk"?

and the inability of some of the writers on LIt to distinguish between them makes some stories very hard to read.

Truer words cannot be said.

 

[TrinaT]

Re: Does the same rule apply?

Haroldx poses another question.

I would have written it so.

I agree with Octavian and 'Un-registered'.

I only use double quotation marks (or as we say in England, speech marks) for direct quotations. If you use single quotation marks as used in the above example, the full stop or a comma, if needed, is placed outside the single quotation marks.

Octavian

Having recently attended a class on grammar basics (a job requirement), the rule of thumb taught for double quotations, sentence puncuation is always inside the quotations. For single quotations, it is just the opposite.

Trina T.

 

[CharleyH]

Quote punctuation

Sorry - I have to disagree with 2 immediately previous posts. I haven't read the rest so . . . here's my take:

What qualifies me? I have been a publicist for years, a journalist, an ESL lackie. I don't know a lot about a lot of grammer, but I do know about quotes:

It is:
1) "I know what you're talking about," he said with a smile. (if there is a descriptor it should be attributed, and always with a comma inside the quatation.

2)"I know what you're talking about," he said with a smile.
"But you don't understand me." Two thoughts seperated.

3)"I know what you're talking about," he said with a smile, "but you don't know what I'm saying."

And transition:

4) "I know what your talking about," he said with a smile.

"You're commenting on life, reality. You're talking bullshit."

Please notice, when a paragraph of dialogue goes to a second paragraph, maybe I havem't illustrated it succincly . . . there is a continuation of dialoge, by no end quotes. No end quotes suggest for readers continuation of the same person. You end quote when there is discontinuation.

Make sense?

If not, don't hesitate to contact me, but not on all grammer problems. I am good at quoting because of my professiona, but relatively crappy at grammer, other than the 70's abc commercials " A noun is a person place or thing."

 

[snooper]

Re: Quote punctuation

What qualifies me? I have been a publicist for years, a journalist, an ESL lackie. I don't know a lot about a lot of grammer, but I do know about quotes:

It is:
1) "I know what you're talking about," he said with a smile. (if there is a descriptor it should be attributed, and always with a comma inside the quatation.

2)"I know what you're talking about," he said with a smile.
"But you don't understand me." Two thoughts seperated.

3)"I know what you're talking about," he said with a smile, "but you don't know what I'm saying."

And transition:

4) "I know what your talking about," he said with a smile.

"You're commenting on life, reality. You're talking bullshit."

Please notice, when a paragraph of dialogue goes to a second paragraph, maybe I havem't illustrated it succincly . . . there is a continuation of dialoge, by no end quotes. No end quotes suggest for readers continuation of the same person. You end quote when there is discontinuation.

Make sense?

If not, don't hesitate to contact me, but not on all grammer problems. I am good at quoting because of my professiona, but relatively crappy at grammer, other than the 70's abc commercials " A noun is a person place or thing."

Number 2 is wrong, and should be written like number 3.
Your spelling confirms your claim to be a journalist, but makes your whole posting less than convincing.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Charley,

I appreciate your input and admire your certainty. But what if you've been doing it wrong all these years? How would you know? Who would have told you?

That brings me to one of my favorite bitch topics: the fact that there is no canon of universally accepted grammar and puntuation rules that I'm aware of.

France has an academly of arts and sciences that sets rules for grammar and spelling that just about have the force of law. We don't (thank God!)

The closest we have is the Chicago Manual of Style, which is basically the opinions of the U of C English dept as it was--when?--in the 1950's? It's been widely accepted, but its authority isn't absolute. This isn't natural science where there are immutable laws whether we like it or not. Sop we're all kind of out here on our own best judgment.

Does anyone know if professional associations like the MLA have punctuation guidelines? Not that I'd care much what they say either, but I'd be curious to see.


---dr.M.

 

[Weird Harold]

The closest we have is the Chicago Manual of Style, which is basically the opinions of the U of C English dept as it was--when?--in the 1950's? It's been widely accepted, but its authority isn't absolute. This isn't natural science where there are immutable laws whether we like it or not. Sop we're all kind of out here on our own best judgment.

Does anyone know if professional associations like the MLA have punctuation guidelines? Not that I'd care much what they say either, but I'd be curious to see.

I've seen references to style guides from various major publishing outlets -- newspapers, magazines, book companies -- detailing the standards they apply if they don't use the CMoS.

The application of those rules are specific to the publishers who provide them, but have a sort of legitimacy when they're applied to a wide circulation base -- NY Times, Times of London, etc.

 

[CharleyH]

To Snooper and Dr. Mabeuse:

I figure I'll get it out in one e-mail!

Snooper: As I have been taught - yes school, and books and all that crap. I write every single, boring day in the corporate box . . . not the way I want to write, but to make a buck this, unfortunately, is the way they seem to like it. I seem to have become adept to writing what other people want - hence I am here - to free express, and I love the banter!! As previously stated, my sweet, I am not a grammer expert - I just happen to write quotes - a lot of fucking, frigging quotes!In fact, I think I'm sure that I dream in quotes! And yet, I am never beyond contradiction! I am Canadian afterall!

Thanks for your input!

And to . . .

Dr. M:
and I love your name! Reminds me of a Propoganda album I once had, and which moulded in my parents basement while I lingered in University . . . and Poe to boot!

While I may look ten years younger than I am in reality, my mind is dwindling, sliding, and every day that passes wears senility on me, or at least, not really being ecactly an artifact, I feel it! Oh my god, my mind!

I simply stated that I have been a publicist, and when I say journalist I mean, "ya sure I've written some health, politics, fashion and entertainment."

I am not a grammer expert, and distinctly stated this fact, and yet love your reply anyhow. I do not ever claim to be right - I just claim, rather solidly, to have my opinion, and of course, I appreciate yours, and it is strong in itself! As I said to Snooper, I am not beyond contradiction!

God this is fun! Nothing is ever absolute sweetie, not even, apparently Einsteinian theory. And doesn't that just throw a few hoops?

Punctuation guidelines? There are numersous ones. As a Canadian, a publicist, and SEMI-journalist, I write CP style, which is Canadian Press, my opinion is of that nature - it is what I know . . . though I did live in L.A for a while - but copy is significantly differant than news . . . books etc.. For newswires, I believe in the U.S. they have A.P. style which is American Press. I do not know what the British press and European press signatures are, sorry.

Thank you both for the privilege of your intellects - and believe me - thank you!

chalrey

 

[CharleyH]

Ooops! Before I say anything more, I meant Associated Press, and NOT American, and whether or not they have a stylebook? I would think so, but . . .?

The CP stylebook, which is the 'preferred' way that Canadian editors receive NEWS articles, has 5 pages of different quotes. Any number of things appear to be correct. A quotation free-for-all, or so it seems! Whether or not same rules apply in the publishing world? Well, you got me.