Psychology of D/s

[ammre]

i had a conversation with my friend and while i'm not fond of posting conversations I'd find it hard to express this any other way...
She is a friend that i normally consider a very good friend who i don't want to loose but this is all just driving me nuts and while i've tried to argue her down i don't exactly know some of the right responses for what she says... so any conversation or help would be of use... or even if this just starts another conversation about it all... just please don't do that "oh fuck her she's total bs" kind of response... and many apologies for the length or bad presentation of the topics.

X= her Y=me
(the beginning she is talking about a high school which i believe is ficticious that still uses corporal punishment.)

Y: i don't know if it's a joke or not
Y: but you're still funny.
Y: OMG THIS IS SO AWFUL
Y: BAHHH
X: because i find that revolting and uncivilized?
X: there are laws protecting people from all kinds of abuse now...and it still exists because people have mental issues...it's sick...
X: you're really bringing this to the wrong person
X: sometimes...i think..you just have a great lack of respect for me...because i tell you it sickens me..and it should sicken you too...but it doesn't for some strange reason...and you find it amusing for me to actually be disgusted by it
X: i wish..you had been beaten at a young age...before you could decide whether you "liked" it or not...maybe then you'd realize just how disturbing it is
Y: if you noticed it said that the ficticious students entered into the atmosphere KNOWING what the school was about
Y: i'm against anything that's against your will
Y: CHOOSING to be part of that "school" or be part of a bdsm relationship is for your will
Y: if someone was abused as a child
Y: that was obviously against their will
X: you know that my honest opinion..is that anyone that actually WANTS something like that to happen to them...is very weak, has serious mental complex and submits to a patriarchal society that enables the NORMAL people that want NO part in in to be subjected unwillingly because some people can't draw the line
X: not enables...damn..i worded that wrong

than there was talking about female Dominants and she said it was still wrong etc...

X: i wish..you would like...go talk to a rape survivor...or an abuse victim....or anyone that was a VICTIM or stuff you think is "cool"
X: because obviously
Y: there's so much communication it's like a contract.. there's hardlimits
X: you're not listening to this one
Y: they did not go into that of free will
Y: therefor i don't expect them to enjoy it
Y: if i was raped
Y:i would not enjoy it
X: there's this thing..for rape survivors and abuse victims...that i don't expect you to understand...but we are taught to blame things like bdsm and patriarchal values and all that stuff because it's part of the reason that things happen in the first place...if those things weren't part of society...then people wouldn't be getting raped and beaten...it's learned behavior..all of it...the fact that a man can go on the internet and watch some girl getting raped and beaten BECAUSE THAT GETS SOME SICK OFF...leads to such crimes
X: i don't expect you to be an empathetic person..because you can't
X: but respect that what you do is seen as disrespectful to many people
X: and they're not going to be shy about telling you
Y: and i'm not going to be shy about ignoring them
X: because be quiet is what usually got them in trouble in the first place
X: you're ignorant.
X: and it saddens me

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[alonelygal]

.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Pure]

Hi ammre,

Most of those are conventional arguments, and there are threads dealing with them, i.e., bdsm as abuse; bdsm and personal history of abuse. There are published works among feminists dealing with the 'DS is patriarchal' argument.

However, I'm not sure winning the argument is or should be the goal.

It's not unlike dealing with the argument that gays are 'sick.' Even 'look at me, am I sick?' may not cut it. (The reply might be "I hadn't thought so, but now I wonder.")

It's perhaps only by meeting 'sane' and non abused bdsm people-- if she's willing, and you have the connections-- that she could disabuse herself of some of those notions.

This, of course, has to be done, without trying to sell the bdsm crowd as a bunch of saints. Just not sickos and criminals.

Further, if she's at all sophisticated, the 'consent' approach is not adequate on its own, since many abused wives at least *say* that they consent (or imply it, by not leaving or pressing charges).

 

[shelleb4]

i think Pure says it well.

Some offense was taken when her line was quoted about she thinks its wrong so you should too.
She is, with this line, attempting to make you hold her beliefs as true, and this is wrong. But your doing the same arent you? Trying to impress your beliefs on her.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you are having these conversations in the first place, look at what is your true motivation behind trying to sell it to her. Why for instance cant you agree to differ? Why cant you let it drop?

There seems little point of either of you beating the other over the head with your perspective sexualities. You are both right, sexuality is a very personal perspective, full of subjectivity and thats what makes it a honour to have someone share with you theirs, whatever path they are on.

 

[MastrJ]

I would say that there just isn't anyway you're going to get through to her. Mostly because of her remarks concerning 'patriarchal society'. Even though she also doesn't approve of Femdom, she'll always have a hang up when it comes to male dominants. You can try to introduce her to safe, sane and consensual participants in the BDSM scene, but I wouldn't hold out much hope that it will do any good.

 

[corkie2]

I needed to think about how to respond to what your friend was saying. She is so far off base and I agree with CutieMouse that she comes across as being fearful of what she does not understand and has very little knowledge of. My first suggestion is to direct her to a site called Sexuality.org and read up on what that site has to say about D/s~BDSM. (I don't imagine she would as she most likely is afraid to)

It would be interesting to hear how she would respond to what CutieMouse said about her making the statement the you should agree with her about D/s~BDSM and her trying to control you without your consent by saying what you should think. She also repeated the same concept a little later in the conversation when she said "sometimes...i think..you just have a great lack of respect for me...because i tell you it sickens me..and it should sicken you too...but it doesn't for some strange reason...and you find it amusing for me to actually be disgusted by it" Once again she told you how you should think.

"X: there's this thing..for rape survivors and abuse victims...that i don't expect you to understand...but ...if those things weren't part of society...then people wouldn't be getting raped and beaten...it's learned behavior..all of it...the fact that a man can go on the internet and watch some girl getting raped and beaten BECAUSE THAT GETS SOME SICK OFF...leads to such crimes"

Here she is making a wide assumption and is way off the mark...I wonder where she is gettin her information that led her to comming to this opinion.

Her comment about the internet being a trigger for such violence might hold some water but how does she balance that with the fact that rapes and sexual/physical abuse were around before even written or pictorial media were around?

Her comment that "we are taught to blame things like bdsm and patriarchal values and all that stuff because it's part of the reason that things happen in the first place" is wrong. Who teaches rape survivor's this? I never heard that BDSM and partiarchal values and all that stuff were something we should blame as part of the reason for what happened to us at any rape crises center or survivors support group that I have ever been to. Nor have I ever read it in any book or article that we should blame such thing's. I was taught to blame the abuser for what happened...not anyone or anything else.

"because be quiet is what usually got them in trouble in the first place"

Nooooooooooo, that is not what got me into trouble........what happened to me happened because I was young, innocent and easily manipulated by a preditor who knew what to look for saw an opportunity and took it.

Now that I have responded to what she wrote I will say that I am a submissive & suvivor of rape/physical & sexual abuse who finds security and a strong feeling of being accepted without judgment in the D/s~BDSM society. It is not a requirement that a submissive be "beaten" or even physicall hurt in any way in order to be a submissive. There is such a thing a sensual Dom/mes and submissives. Although I enjoy a good spanking and at times even more pain but it is not the same as when I was beaten up by my abuser....no where near even the same concept.....my abuser wanted me to fear him...he wanted to hurt me and hurt me bad. My Sir wants to and does give me pleasure....it is very erotic and sensual between us. Where as before when my abusers were hurting me...knocking me around and beating me with their fists and slapping me I could not stop it .... no way of gettin away from them..........In D/s~BDSM I have safe word's and confidence that they will be honored and respected.

Your friend needs to get herself educated before she pass's blanket judgements about that which she does not understand. This includes what is taught to the survivors of sexual/physical abuse and rape. She is incorrect in her opinions about both topics.

Not that I think it would help but why dont you print and give her a copy to the replies in this thread? Maybe she would at least read it and decide to do some research. If she want's to read what survivors who are into D/s~BDSM think and feel and what their reason's for their involvement are I could give you some links to several support sites where many of us hang out. There she could ask us herself............instead of verbally beating you up.

Hope this helps.......my appologies for the bad spelling/typo's, I am not at home and am on my son's computer which does not have my spell check program on it. I am a pretty bad speller when I am tired....lol

good luck with your firend,
Corkie

 

[ammre]

i think Pure says it well.

Some offense was taken when her line was quoted about she thinks its wrong so you should too.
She is, with this line, attempting to make you hold her beliefs as true, and this is wrong. But your doing the same arent you? Trying to impress your beliefs on her.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you are having these conversations in the first place, look at what is your true motivation behind trying to sell it to her. Why for instance cant you agree to differ? Why cant you let it drop?

There seems little point of either of you beating the other over the head with your perspective sexualities. You are both right, sexuality is a very personal perspective, full of subjectivity and thats what makes it a honour to have someone share with you theirs, whatever path they are on.

I only have a hard time letting it drop because whenever i mention Sir even in a non-sexual context she gets all nasty and i'd like to be able to talk about my significant other with my friends. And anytime i mention any sort of problem or obstacle in our relationship she goes "see i told you so" and blames it on his desire for power and patriarchal society and it drives me nuts. Not to mention she has in the past called me weak because of this as well. I don't so much want to "win" as i want to open her eyes to the fact that i'm not a sick or weak person because i enjoy this. I'm a very open and friend oriented person, this bothers me that i can't share my enjoyment with her without being seen as sick. i respect what kind of sexual activities she likes to enjoy, i just want the same.

I hope i wasne't imposign my way of life on her, that wasne't my intention. ;\

 

[ammre]

and thank you very much corkie2, CutieMouse, and alonelygal for sharing your expierence and observations on these topics.

also i've offered to have her meet my Sir.. go for coffee or something very generic like but she said she'd probably start screaming at him the second she saw him.

 

[catalina_francisco]

and thank you very much corkie2, CutieMouse, and alonelygal for sharing your expierence and observations on these topics.

also i've offered to have her meet my Sir.. go for coffee or something very generic like but she said she'd probably start screaming at him the second she saw him.

I think the main problem ammre is she is just immature, especially emotionally it seems. For a grown adult to react that way in such a situation, there has to be something of the sort wrong. So while she is accusing you and everyone else into the lifestyle of being mentally deranged, it seems perhaps she is just projecting her own condition onto others. There is little you can do with people like that until they begin to open their own minds, lower the mental blocks, and listen without judging. It just adds unwanted stress to your day to try.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

X: there are laws protecting people from all kinds of abuse
X: you know that my honest opinion..is that anyone that actually WANTS something like that to happen to them...is very weak, has serious mental complex and submits to a patriarchal society that enables the NORMAL people that want NO part in in to be subjected unwillingly because some people can't draw the line


X: i wish..you would like...go talk to a rape survivor...or an abuse victim....or anyone that was a VICTIM or stuff you think is "cool"

X: there's this thing..for rape survivors and abuse victims...that i don't expect you to understand...but we are taught to blame things like bdsm and patriarchal values and all that stuff because it's part of the reason that things happen in the first place...if those things weren't part of society...then people wouldn't be getting raped and beaten...it's learned behavior..all of it...the fact that a man can go on the internet and watch some girl getting raped and beaten BECAUSE THAT GETS SOME SICK OFF...leads to such crimes

Your friend makes some quite incorrect assumptions, one being that all dominant personalities are violent, have violent tendencies and that outside influences (i.e. the internet) "make them" rapists.

The second is that all submissives are victims of molestation, rape and abuse and all have a mental disorders. Again, nothing could be further from the truth. Although, I sympathize with those who have been mistreated and violated, I never have been and I can never walk in their shoes.

We are all made up differently and we all have had experiences and factors that influence who we are and who we become. To lump everyone into either a predator or victim category is simply incorrect on your friend's part.

She has made her mind up regarding this topic and I don't think you will ever change that. The only thing that changes people's stereotypical and uneducated opinions, is life experiences. And for some, even that does not work.

 

[Pure]

Perhaps if you're around this friend for a while, some general topics might be looked at: 'does a kink or perversion imply an illness?' 'does it imply the person is a danger to others?" further, 'is she aware there is the distinction made in DSM IV-- and by law enforcement--as to whether the 'other' consents?'

I.e., ONE kind of watcher IS breaking the law, the peeper who employs stealth. However a watcher/voyeur who secured consent would not be a danger, but rather harmless if his/her partners agreed (or were paid professionals, like strippers).

if she had any touch of liberalism in her, the aswers to these quesions for, say, homosexual acts and other kinky ones might lead her to re think. there's a general professional consensus that homosexual practices and tastes are not 'illness', nor a law enforcement issue if the partner is a consenting adult.
does she agree with this? If not, you're going to have to pry her from her Bible, or wait till a lapse of faith or something!

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Some thoughts before I even finish reading this thread so hope i'm not repetitive, just needed to post:

Liking to skydive is not the same thing as liking to be thrown out of airplanes without a parachute. Liking to skydive does not Enable those who want to throw people out of airplanes without a parachute.

As I've posted before, ( and I'm only saying this somewhat sarcastically) one of the worst things about RL rape is that it ruins a perfectly good fantasy. Problem is, in my case, it didn't make the fantasy go away, just made me feel Awful for having them. While I recognized that rl and fantasy weren't the same, I got into this whole thing of feeling like a sick fuck etc wondering what was wrong with me for continuing to have them etc. Thing is, we are either hardwired that way, or have so reinforced something that pushes our buttons, that it amounts to the same thing. Sexuality is Very difficult to change, possibly impossible. ACTIONS, however, Are changeable.

For instance, rapists can fantasize all they like. There is only a problem once they choose to act on them with the non-consenting. My rights end where your nose begins.

A comparison that helped me think it out is, what if I had fantasies about getting into the ring with Sugar Ray? By my enjoyment of that fantasy, am I to blame, or have I somehow enabled, the stranger who runs up and punches me on the street?

An example perhaps more pertinent to BDSM: if I enjoy giving money to charity, and perhaps even from time to time give cash to beggars on the street, do my actions muggers? In fact, I don't even think that my giving change to some guy on the street makes it ok for him to Demand money from me the next time he sees me, and if he were to jump me and Take the cash, his true claims that I Gave it to him freely last time would not excuse or enable his Taking it this time. (This also applies to sex. just because you had sex with someone once, it can still be rape the next time. The difference is consent.)

It took me a longish time of thinking this thru on a non-consent board, of all places, to figure this one out, as I Am a feminist, Do believe the patriarchal system enables a lot of things, such as some men thinking they have and should have more rights than others, that women are 'lesser' and thus one can ignore their protestations and rights, in much the same way as racism can make some people of Northern European origin act the same toward people of African origin. Note that it is the Act that is the problem, not the thought. On the other hand, our thoughts do affect our Acts, so non-consent fantasy is still a problematic area for me. BDSM, however, is not about non-consent. Non-consent is its own separate issue.

There are some legitimate questions about the affects of porn on changes of attitude in the direction of objectification of others, but this is true of All porn. I wrote a paper on this, myself, many years ago back in college, and was greatly concerned with the whole slippery slope idea. Let's compare it to say, boxing, for instance. There is probably research that shows that people's attitudes toward rl violence change in a negative way after watching boxing. Do we outlaw boxing on tv? Maybe we should. And maybe we should outlaw McDonald's, too, and desserts, as they surely contribute toward health problems and have no redeeming social value other than enjoyment.

More later most likely.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Re: Re: Psychology of D/s

As someone who grew up in an abusive environment I can say that to choose how you are involved in BDSM activities (if that is your thing), with consent, with an understanding of a respect based power exchange is not sick. It can be healing and empowering. However- that does not mean everyone who suffered abuse as a child or was raped would choose to take that path in their healing or adult life. (that would be an example of the whole respecting the way people deal with things )

In fact, abuse can Interfere with taking the path you want, as it did for me -- just because of things like my own fears of what it could mean about me, etc. I needed to do my healing First and be very strong before I could let myself do what I wanted. (Probably similar to someone who happened to be gay but was molested by a same-sex molestor -- they might well not admit to being gay and fight it because of confusion about the whole consent issue, not wanting to be 'like' their abuser, etc.)

 

[Darkknight2010]

Just another thought on the subject. An ex of mine and I enjoyed doing a little light bondage; cuffs, scarves, nothing too fancy. We both really enjoyed it. One night, as we're snuggling... she told me I was the ONLY person she has ever trusted enough to tie her up...

... I almost cried, that she had the faith in me to not hurt her... to restrain her... to just show her as much pleasure as possible... it's NEVER about control or power, blah, blah blah... it's the fact that your lover looks you in the eye and is telling you 'I trus you with my LIFE AND SOUL and you will show me pleasure and delight.'

Frankly... this might be one of those things your friend just won't 'get'. I hope she does... but it sounds like she won't.

 

[alonelygal]

.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Re: Psychology of D/s

...i don't want to question away something that makes me feel whole.

j.

And why should you? Why should any of us? If doing a particular thing makes you feel satisfied and content and whole with yourself, you have no one to be accountable to. You're injuring no one, especially yourself.

We spend a lot of time dissecting what we are and why we are. In my opinion, we should spend more time just enjoying what we are with people and partners who share that understanding. Life is simply too short.

The so-called "normal" world fits in my life in other areas. Just not this one.


Edited because I misspelled dissecting. LOL

 

[shy slave]

ammre

It seems that so many people have fixed ideas about many things - religion, money society etc.

It is this mix that makes life both interesting and frustrating

I have friends who know of my interest in BDSM but we do not discuss it, as it could potentialy lead to an ending of what is otherwise a good friendship.

Equally I have friends who have interests that I find difficult to accept. Again we agree to disgree and the subject is not particularly discussed.

It is not a case of avoiding the subject but more about respect for the person views, and giving them the opportunity to respect the fact that you do not share this views.

I am a medium/psychic who works with spirit guides and angels; as well as being a sub, who enjoys being humiliated, pain and begging.

It can be said this is a mix of lifestyles.

My experience is that some people and friends can accept one side of me far easier than the other, but which aspects of which side varies tremedously.

I used to try and explain both on a personal level and the psychology & science level.

I now realise, for me, its just too much like hard work.

I agree with Desert Rose who said "Life is just too short"

So I end up with different friends for differing aspects, coupled with their mix of interests; it means that we always have something to agree/disagree or after a few drinks - debate

Sorry to ramble but I guess what i am saying is its easier and calmer for you if you accept that she has a differing viewpoint but that need not spoil a lovely friendship.


shy slave

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I would say that there just isn't anyway you're going to get through to her. Mostly because of her remarks concerning 'patriarchal society'. Even though she also doesn't approve of Femdom, she'll always have a hang up when it comes to male dominants. You can try to introduce her to safe, sane and consensual participants in the BDSM scene, but I wouldn't hold out much hope that it will do any good.

Hi, I like shy slaves answer here -- just wanted to respond to MastrJ, that just because one can discuss, and be against, patriarchy ( -- or any old -archy, for that matter,) doesn't mean that one can't or won't be gotten thru to. The comment that 'she'll always have a hangup when it comes to male dominants' fo
I am also against racism, yet I am capable, at the same time, of holding the strong belief that ownedsubgal and other subbie women of African ancestry, are Not, by virtue of their own personal enjoyment of subbiness, enabling racism.
Logic and feminism are not oxymoronic.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Oh, the other thing your friend probably doesn't realize -- as I didn't -- is how many different flavors of bdsm there are. What she's seen in mainstream movies is not much, I suspect, like most people's experience.

Some like bondage but not pain, others like humiliation play but not bondage. Some are lifestyle (if that's the right word) slaves -- and see it as a great and deep giving of the deepest part of themselves to someone they love. Pretty romantic stuff, really. Don't mean to make it out all hearts and flowers but she's not seeing the deeper level here, at all.

Is it clear to her that you see the abuse that happened to her as bad? That you aren't laughing at her or making light of what happened to her? That you understand that she didn't like or accept what happened to her?

 

[wickedwanda]

Your friend obviously has strong feelings on the subject.

I wouldn't try to impose discussions of the lifestyle on her. If she wants to discuss her feelings about your relationship with you I suggest that you politely tell her you know that the two of you disagree, that you value her friendship very much and that you'd rather not talk about it in the interest of maintaining harmony between you.

Only she can change her attitude. No matter how hard you try she's not going to come around until she's willing.

Sometimes consensual has to apply to social interactions as well. VBG

 

[Guest]

 

[s'lara]

Having read the conversation, i am not sure if there is anything you can do to impart to your friend how D/s isn't necessarily practiced by people who have psychological disorders or are exceptionally weak.

While you do want her to accept this part of who you are (the D/s), you may have to accept that she will never understand your need to be a part of BDSM.

What you could say to her is that in some respects she is partially right in her thinking. The lifestyle has and can draw people who have a history with abuse. However, that does not mean all who enter the lifestyle are victims or are seeking D/s as a result of a troubled past. i don't know you ammre nor do i know your history when it comes to relationships of a D/s or vanilla kind. But, it does appear that D/s is as important to you as your friendships.

You may want to let her know that D/s meets a specific need within you and that need isn't a result of being brainwashed by a patriarchal society nor is it an unwillingness to embrace ideas of a feminist nature. Rather, tell her it is a conscious choice which satisfies your requirement for a relationship with strongly defined roles and all that implies. Let her know you need to interact with others who share your feelings on Dominance and submission and would rather not have to choose between her and your needs.

She may not condone D/s or understand it. Such is life. However, you have every right to expect her to love you despite your D/s proclivities. If she can't, well, you will have to decide whether your friendship can survive without her acceptance of your lifestyle choices. Whatever the case, i hope you can work it out.

lara

 

[Phoenix Stone]

hmm, I'm thinkin' that what usually convinces people, if they are convinceable, is comparing to something they can relate to. Using metaphors and such. Is your friend straight? If so, ask her how she feels about patriarchy and having sex with men. If she's truly going to stand by her convictions, shouldn't she switch to women as sexual partners? My bet is that she makes an exception in this case. As do you.

(Won't work as well as an argument if she is gay of course, but in that case, you could ask how she feels about people who say it's a choice and that she shouldn't make the 'choice' she is making. Would she have you remain celibate?)