Protective Parents Need Educating.

[Clare Quilty]

Hubby suggests we tell them they must NEVER EVER touch a person of the oppsite sex until they're 30.

Blame this on the 17th century religious wack-jobs with the belt buckles on their hats, whose repressive sexual attitudes still hold sway in this fucked up puritanical country some four hundred years hence. In America, murder is as wholesome as mom's apple pie, whilst sex between teenagers is an unutterable abomination.

 

[The_old_man]

Along with a home environment that was rather unconcerned over casual nudity, fully factual answers to All questions, I was given only one "commandment" on sex.

Never screw any girl that you would not want as your wife, and mother of your children.

The Boy Scout motto was taught even earlier.

 

[Match Made In Heaven]

Along with a home environment that was rather unconcerned over casual nudity, fully factual answers to All questions, I was given only one "commandment" on sex.

Never screw any girl that you would not want as your wife, and mother of your children.

The Boy Scout motto was taught even earlier.

That is an excellent rule- especially the mother part. (don't really believe in marriage that much) Same for a woman. Because if you have a child with someone then later find out that they are a terrible partner/ rollmodel/ ect, you will feel very regretful on behalf of both yourself and your children. But then, you don't really understand the impact of all that until you already have kids. Oh well.

 

[amicus]

Weird Harold....


Okay..perhaps I am only playing devils advocate here, or perhaps I want to fully understand in the event I write about it...but...


Let us suppose that virginity in a young female entering marriage is a valuable commodity.

Let us further consider that the male, upon learning for sure (not always possible I know) that his bride was untouched, gains esteem from the fact that he was her first.

Does compatibility or even female pleasure/orgasm in sex outweigh the 'bond' that 'may' develope in such a marriage with a virgin bride?

Again...suppositions on my part, or devils advocate...were I to write a story about such an event...what would the parameters beyond my own imagination entail?

Appreciate your comments if you are so inclined...


amicus

 

[Teenage Venus]

Never screw any girl that you would not want as your wife, and mother of your children.

I can't go along with this. It depends how you look on sex. If you consider it only there to procreate, I supose that attitude is fine. However, I see sex as performing two functions: Procreation and pleasure.

I view it much like sport. One can only play sport, or take part in athletics say, to provide you with a living - if you are good enough. Or you can indulge purely for the pleasure you - and others who may be involved - gain from it.

Whichever reason you indulge, like most things, you improve with practice.

Having to abide by the principles quoted, I think would maybe have been good advice to a young lad 100 years ago when birthcontrol measures were virtually none-existant. In that case, one presumes parents would advise/encourage their offspring to relieve their urges by masturbation. Though in actual fact, the very persons that advocate/ed the 'only if' rules of engagement were/are the very ones that frighten/ed the shit out of their kids by telling them masturbation was evil, they would go blind, it was/is a mortal sin, the devil will get them, etc..

We are back to the original posting: Many older persons need to move their attitudes towards sex (and knowledge of it), up into the 21st. century.

One drinks to stay alive - also for pleasure. Ditto with food.
I drive of necessity. I also drive for pleasure.
I write for cash. I also write for pleasure.
I play sport to keep fit. I also play sport for pleasure.

In all the above, I take appropriate precautions

Why should I treat sex any differently?

 

[amicus]

Teenaged Venus

"We are back to the original posting: Many older persons need to move their attitudes towards sex (and knowledge of it), up into the 21st. century.

One drinks to stay alive - also for pleasure. Ditto with food.
I drive of necessity. I also drive for pleasure.
I write for cash. I also write for pleasure.
I play sport to keep fit. I also play sport for pleasure.

In all the above, I take appropriate precautions

Why should I treat sex any differently?"



__________________


Drink, drive, write and play sports...why should you treat sex any differently?

I could tell you but I think you do not listen well...

Amicus the inarticulate

 

[gothgodess]

I think its too easy to lay the blaim for all societys problems with "the parents" yes if you are too protective kids rebel but if you are too easy going they turn out with no respect for themselves or others.
As a parent my self I am fed up with hearing how we are getiing it wrong from all parties. If you smack your children you are cruel if you don't you arent teaching them disaplin. If you protect them from sex you are smothering them If you tell them the facts you are blaimed for encouraging them to investigate.

In Britain we are constantly being told how there are more teen pregnancys than ever before, more kids are taking drugs, comitting crimes and failing school. our gouvernment is so intent on telling us how to raise our kids but they won't help set up youth clubs and other places for them to go. Kids aren't let out at night because their are no clubs or safe places left. My village has two youth clubs they have one meeting a week. If the kids don't want to play football or do karate there is nothing for them to do at night. As a parent how can we win, if you let them out you are letting them run wild keep them in and you are too protective.

I know their are bad parents out their but the rest of us are muddling through the best we can, Is it so terrible that a lot of us don't want our kids to get hurt? Most people I have spoken to have said that when it comes to sex and drugs they tell their kids the facts. safe sex is ok over the age of consent and unsafe sex leads to baby's and serious illnesses.

I say to you teenage venus, is the problem that parents are too protective or that kids need to actually listen when they talk rather than take the attitude of "I know best".

 

[pussy chaser]

i find as a Father of 2 daughters, that my concerns about them going out, and sex matters,were generally treated as " Dad's off on one again" type thing.

my youngest is 20, the eldest nearly 22 and pregnant with her second child.
i don't think i have told them to do anything with their social life,since they were about 15-16.Because let's face it they would try and do it anyway all kids are rebellious in some way. (or was it just me?)

I express an opinion, I offer my advice, neither are always gratefully received. But when things do hit the fan, who comes to the rescue, or to pick up the pieces? Dad!!

I don't think thats it is parent pressure so much as peer pressure that educates our kids, it's not always cool to listen to our parents after all, and any information is on the 'net' and friends wouldn't lie would to them would they?

 

[mtnman2003]

Some differences........

Interesting thread. I come from a background where full sex started at 13, and many, many more experiences came quickly. Led the local thugs. Had girls that were just told to lay down, and they did.

I was one of those boys your mother warned the girls about.

Thngs changed when I turned 15. Jock, big, average to average looking, good physical shape. By the time I was 15, I knew what the body would do. So taking advantage of the female body turn on points, I bedded half the girls in my high school.

Notched the headboard of my bed. Mom thought it was the funniest thing. She kept track of new notches when I dated someone new. She and I talked about everything. Nothing was taboo.

Now I have 4-kids, oldest/youngest are girls, middle two boys. I have had good fortune in life to be successful in business. As an example, when I hired a "friend" for my oldest daughter (bodyguard), she required that he be good looking, a good dresser, humorous, etc. Brought up in a religious background (mom), she was a virgin until 22.

Oldest boy, 20, is now part of the sex group. And the other 2, still are no where near sexual beings.

Over protected, absolutely. But the kids are very real people, honest, considerate, thoughtful, etc.

Never would I have wished the background I had on them.

Mtn

 

[Teenage Venus]

AMICUS

I could tell you but I think you do not listen well...

Not for want of trying. However, having followed your 'reasoning' on many threads, I tend to think you prefer to play a bad 'Devil's Advocate' game badly, more to cause an argument, then become a 'politician', and avoid any thought out replies you have no answer for, and digress to another track, or fade out of the thread and start up somewhere else.

My general impression is that you are much like me, in that you are extremely self-opiniated. The main difference is that I seek to learn, and revise my opinions in light of new knowledge gained. It seems to me that you tend to know you are right, so anyone not of the same mindset is wrong.

GOTHGODESS I agree and sympathise to a large extent. Undoubtedly, many parents mostly do what they think best. I also think Governments in general have a difficult job legislating. (Like parents - often they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.)

Re- your: "I say to you teenage venus, is the problem that parents are too protective or that kids need to actually listen when they talk rather than take the attitude of "I know best". I lay 90% of blame for kids not listening, and 'knowing best', on the way they are brought up from birth.

If a child is taught to respect elders, and told the TRUTH about everything from day one, they are more likely to listen and respect what their parents tell them.

Sure, the truth in some cases may not be able to be grasped at the time by the child, however, they will assimilate what their brain is able to at any particular age, and they will eventually understand. Being able to discuss things with parents will become 'natural' to them. Knowing they will be listened to and told the truth will instill trust of their parents in the child.

Too many parents either have no time to listen to their children, or avoid 'difficult' questions. If parents took time to listen to their children, then the children may take more time to listen to parents.

On another point: All around me I hear teenagers complain they are bored, their is nothing to do, etc.

Those same kids are happy to wreck most everything parents fork out to provide for them: Youthclubs are ransacked, schools are vandalised, park facilities destroyed.

It's fine to say they 'have nothing'. When a few hundred thousands of $/£ have to be spent regularly in most communities to repair damage to schools, bus shelters, play areas, etc., the amount available to provide more facilities is - of necessity - very limited.

If those children had had a good home which provided the basics in knowledge, understanding, respect, they may have had a different perspective on life. In my own view, too few children get quality time with parents almost from the day they are born. (Pursuit of the almighty $/£ - for whatever reason - becomes more important.)

You reap what you sow. Not all crops are successful, but the ones that get looked after tend to flourish better. By the same token, over-protecting them can have adverse results.

One question few parents think of asking their child is, "What do you think, love?"

If the child is not afraid of expressing an honest view, then a wise parent can then elaborate and put the pros and cons forward on any particular subject. The child can then reason for themselves, and will have the basics to form an opinion, having the knowledge that Mum/Dad always told the truth before, so their view was worth serious consideration.

Take drugs:

If instead of giving them all the usual crap, they were told that taking drugs COULD - and often does make them feel great, etc., then outline the need for caution because of the dangers of being sold 'crack' cut with strychnine, etc., the dangers of dehydration, becoming dependent on them, and such, the kid just may think twice. How many of you are hooked and dependant on antidepressants etc.? Tell your kids. Say they served a purpose (you thought) at the time - now you are totally reliant on them.

Ban kids from anything and they will most likely give it a try first chance they get. Be honest: give them ALL the facts, and because they see you are not banning them, but trusting them to use their own judgement, you are more likely to get a favourable outcome.

This applies equally to sex.

Candida (I told you I was self-opinionated )

 

[amicus]

Well, my dear...join the long and raucous line of the detractors of amicus...I am sure you will fit right in...

"Not for want of trying. However, having followed your 'reasoning' on many threads, I tend to think you prefer to play a bad 'Devil's Advocate' game badly, more to cause an argument, then become a 'politician', and avoid any thought out replies you have no answer for, and digress to another track, or fade out of the thread and start up somewhere else.

My general impression is that you are much like me, in that you are extremely self-opiniated. The main difference is that I seek to learn, and revise my opinions in light of new knowledge gained. It seems to me that you tend to know you are right, so anyone not of the same mindset is wrong."


Life is a bit more complex than that seen through the eyes of a 'teenage venus' if indeed you are that.

Your lighthearted opiniions about sexual relationships might be tempered with an old addage,

"Things you do come back to you as if they knew the way."

Good luck in learning..

amicus...

 

[Weird Harold]

Let us suppose that virginity in a young female entering marriage is a valuable commodity.

Let us further consider that the male, upon learning for sure (not always possible I know) that his bride was untouched, gains esteem from the fact that he was her first.

Your suppositions are a pretty fair description of the Puritanical and patriarchal "official" standards of most of the civilized world that treat women as property.

It's a standard that makes som sort of sense when paternity really mattered and was a near certain result of non-virginity. In the modern world, it makes little sense at all to anyone who believes women are actually human.

The idealized fantasy of being the only man a woman has ever experienced is great fodder for fiction but is now and always has been a fantasy in real life if women have any freedom at all -- and even where women are kept sequestered and guarded, infidelity is not unknown.

Only a patriarchal mysogynist would consider "...that virginity in a young female entering marriage is a valuable commodity" in the modern world.

 

[Weird Harold]

Never screw any girl that you would not want as your wife, and mother of your children.

I can't go along with this. It depends how you look on sex. If you consider it only there to procreate, I supose that attitude is fine. However, I see sex as performing two functions: Procreation and pleasure.

Since the only 100% effective form of birth control is abstinance, would you consider "never screw anyone who would't be acceptable as a co-parent" as a better wording of that advice to young people?

Like you, I do a lot of things for a purpose or for pleasure -- however, there are a lot of people I wouldn't consider sharing those things with whether I was doing them for a purpose OR for pleasure, whether it's sex or target shooting.

If you take the advice literally, it is indeed "old-fashioned" and outdated, because it's based in the concepts of chilvalry that dictate that a man must marry, or at least "provide for," the mother of his children.

If you look behind the literal words, though, it is simply advice to limit your shared pleasures to people you actually like and trust.

 

[amicus]

Weird Harold...thank you for sharing your thoughts....



"Only a patriarchal mysogynist would consider "...that virginity in a young female entering marriage is a valuable commodity" in the modern world."


__________________

I resemble that remark!

amicus the patriarchal misognynist also accused of swimming with bow-legged women...

 

[Weird Harold]

I think its too easy to lay the blaim for all societys problems with "the parents" yes if you are too protective kids rebel but if you are too easy going they turn out with no respect for themselves or others.
As a parent my self I am fed up with hearing how we are getiing it wrong from all parties. If you smack your children you are cruel if you don't you arent teaching them disaplin. If you protect them from sex you are smothering them If you tell them the facts you are blaimed for encouraging them to investigate.

...

I know their are bad parents out their but the rest of us are muddling through the best we can, Is it so terrible that a lot of us don't want our kids to get hurt? Most people I have spoken to have said that when it comes to sex and drugs they tell their kids the facts. safe sex is ok over the age of consent and unsafe sex leads to baby's and serious illnesses.

I say to you teenage venus, is the problem that parents are too protective or that kids need to actually listen when they talk rather than take the attitude of "I know best".

I think something on the order of 80-90% of parents share your cocnerns and frustrations. The specter of Child Welfare (under whatever name the local jurisdiction gives it) far too often inhibits parents from taking the actions they feel would work best with their children. Most parents are capable of turning out responsible adults if only government and "child psychologists" would let them.

Child Welfare Agencies have a place in our society to protect the children of the 10-20% of parents who are truly bad, but the legislation and bureaucratic rules are so jumbled, poorly written, self-contradictory and based on bad "science" that it's virtually impossible to avoid violating some rule or law if you have children.

Parenting is a difficult job that doesn't come with a manual or instructions. Most parents have only "it was good enough for me and my siblings," and "I'll never do that to my children" as their guide to parenting.

 

[Weird Harold]

I lay 90% of blame for kids not listening, and 'knowing best', on the way they are brought up from birth.

If a child is taught to respect elders, and told the TRUTH about everything from day one, they are more likely to listen and respect what their parents tell them.

Sure, the truth in some cases may not be able to be grasped at the time by the child, however, they will assimilate what their brain is able to at any particular age, and they will eventually understand. Being able to discuss things with parents will become 'natural' to them. Knowing they will be listened to and told the truth will instill trust of their parents in the child.

Too many parents either have no time to listen to their children, or avoid 'difficult' questions. If parents took time to listen to their children, then the children may take more time to listen to parents.

This bears repeating. I think if you can adhere to this philosophy when you become a parent, you'll be one of the good ones.

"Protecting" your children from sex and drugs starts with communication -- on ALL topics -- as soon as they can talk. If your children can't trust you to be honest and open about everyday events, why should they listen to you about sex and drugs?

 

[Teenage Venus]

AMICUS]

Well, my dear...join the long and raucous line of the detractors of amicus...I am sure you will fit right in...

If you consider that raucus and me a detractor, in the words of one I have little respect for - "You ain't seen nothing yet." As for 'fitting right in', my list of those that object to my postings is not as long as yours, however, they do show that I never try to 'fit in' with either friend or foe. I give my view, and they accept or reject it. Some debate my views without rancour, others resort to use of expletives and abuse. The first I appreciate as I learn from those. The second do give me a laugh, but it is same kind of laugh one gives when one sees someone fall ass over tit - it is an involuntary laugh, whilst my true sentiments are to feel sorry for them.

Life is a bit more complex than that seen through the eyes of a 'teenage venus' ....... lighthearted opiniions about sexual relationships might be tempered with an old addage,

You see the above is a reason so many on here seem to consider you talk through your anus. It may be your opinion that life is more complex than I see it - YOU state it as fact. And it may be your opinion that my opinions on sexual relationships are 'lighthearted' ; Again, you assume they are, so in your mind that becomes a fact.

I make every effort to distinguish between my opion and what is fact. It seems that in your mind there is no distinction.

I seek out facts to support my opinions - or change my opinions. You appear to make up facts to support your 'facts'.

Do you ever pause to wonder why you have such a " long and raucous line of the detractors of amicus"? If you do, you might just wonder if you could possibly be mistaken about something occasionally - and review your outlook. Unfortunately, your postings so regularly give one the impression that you are too tunnel-visioned to see other than your own 'truths.' - Either that, or you are indeed a person that just likes to stir the shit. Whatever - you have my sympathy.

What your postings on this thread do show, is that I am probably correct in saying it would not hurt older people to take time out to listen to younger ones occasionally, and possibly understand them better. In that way they could reason with them using truth and logic, rather than imposing restrictions which defeat the objective they seek to attain.

Thank you for your good wishes in my learning. Whether said with sincerity or otherwise. As you were so kind as to include an old adage for me, may I reciprocate by including one for you:

'You can't teach old dogs new tricks'. I guess that implies there is hope for me, but none for you. Sad.

 

[matriarch]

I can't go along with this. It depends how you look on sex. If you consider it only there to procreate, I supose that attitude is fine. However, I see sex as performing two functions: Procreation and pleasure.

Since the only 100% effective form of birth control is abstinance, would you consider "never screw anyone who would't be acceptable as a co-parent" as a better wording of that advice to young people?

Like you, I do a lot of things for a purpose or for pleasure -- however, there are a lot of people I wouldn't consider sharing those things with whether I was doing them for a purpose OR for pleasure, whether it's sex or target shooting.

If you take the advice literally, it is indeed "old-fashioned" and outdated, because it's based in the concepts of chilvalry that dictate that a man must marry, or at least "provide for," the mother of his children.

If you look behind the literal words, though, it is simply advice to limit your shared pleasures to people you actually like and trust. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree completely WH, as the mother of two intelligent and charming adult sons, it is advice I would happily have given them. Thankfully I didn't need to.

I don't think its about viewing sex purely as procreation, its about responsibility. Accidents can and do happen to the most careful and sensible of people, and at the very least that outcome could require two generally responsible people to spend a considerable part of their lives together, with the result of the accident.

So, before you get carried away...make sure you'd be happy to be carried away with that person for a long time. Just in case.

Mat

 

[Teenage Venus]

Since the only 100% effective form of birth control is abstinance, would you consider "never screw anyone who would't be acceptable as a co-parent" as a better wording of that advice to young people?

Not really, Mat. Any more than I would only watch a movie with such people, or play beachball with, or play on a bowling alley with on holiday.

I don't mean that in any way frivolously. I look on sex as recreational pleasure. In the same way that I take sensible precautions when indulging in other pleasures (wearing helmet and pads when roller-skating, for instance), so I do with sex.

Sex is like most forms of recreation - safety precautions and after-treatment in case of accident have improved. (Night after' pills, availability of abortion).

I do not treat it lightly, any more than para-gliding or bungee jumping. As for 'limiting to people I like and trust', to a great extent I do this, but that does NOT mean I would want - or be prepared - to share the rest of my life with them if I became pregnant by them. Apart from the options above - which in general I do not subscribe to - there is the option of being a single parent. (And you don't have to sponge off the State to do that .)

Like yourself, there are many, many people I would not consider sharing leisure activities with. However, our lives are spent taking chances. If we are wise we take precautions - whether crossing a road, or indulging in sex.

 

[gauchecritic]

Sex is like most forms of recreation - safety precautions and after-treatment in case of accident have improved. (Night after' pills, availability of abortion).

I really wish you hadn't said that. I don't want to come on like some kind of rabid anti-abortionist and that isn't why I'm mentioning this. Abortion isn't a precaution.

Maybe you didn't mean it like that and don't hold that view but the words themselves are contradictory and unfortunately some people do take the view that even if they do get pregnant they can always get rid of it. This makes me sad.

We've had the abortion issue and 'my body my choice' thing lots of times on the boards and I rarely take part, my concerns are my own. But to have this attitude (again, not necessarily yours) makes me despair.

Gauche

 

[matriarch]

TV, not sure what happened with my post, but it put some of WH's quote as my text. What I actually wrote is below:

I agree completely WH, as the mother of two intelligent and charming adult sons, it is advice I would happily have given them. Thankfully I didn't need to.

I don't think its about viewing sex purely as procreation, its about responsibility. Accidents can and do happen to the most careful and sensible of people, and at the very least that outcome could require two generally responsible people to spend a considerable part of their lives together, with the result of the accident.

So, before you get carried away...make sure you'd be happy to be carried away with that person for a long time. Just in case.



I agree its all about choices, considered choices,but there are those occasions when considered choices don't come into it and heat of the moment takes over. Those are the times that usually result in consequences.

Butting out now. Said my bit.

Mat

 

[Teenage Venus]

So, before you get carried away...make sure you'd be happy to be carried away with that person for a long time. Just in case..... I agree its all about choices, considered choices,but there are those occasions when considered choices don't come into it and heat of the moment takes over. Those are the times that usually result in consequences.
Butting out now. Said my bit.

As to the first part of this - this seems to pre-suppose that we should/will only have sex with those we are prepared to hang on to, and make a life with, if a pregnancy results. If that were/is the case, then I guess sex woud be as popular as pensioners playing 'chicken' on route 66.

In my view, sex is there to be enjoyed - anyone not availing themselves of this is missing out on one of the natural joys of life.

As for the second part - this is so very true, hence the need for parents to instill responsibility for practicing it, rather than shying away because of embarrassement, or prudishness, or for any other reason.

Start a relationship with your children from day one, based on frankness and honesty, rather than have your relationship with them based on your own prejudices, fears, unreasonable religious beliefs, or other inhibiting factors.

I believe the young teenager - their outlook, attitude, maturity, is mostly the product of good parentage and home environment. (And one can provide this whether a millionaire or pauper.)

Once through adolescence, the teenager then becomes more responsible for their own actions, as parental control and ties diminish. A good basic grounding will be a great asset in helping the young adult to mature wisely.

Which brings us full circle to my opening comment:

"So many parents have good intentions and try to protect their children from 'a wicked world of sex and vice'. From my own experience they do just the opposite."

The various comments have been quite enlightening - especially as this is in name an 'ADULT' site, with sexual titilation as the predominant theme. Thanks,

Candida.

 

[matriarch]

As to the first part of this - this seems to pre-suppose that we should/will only have sex with those we are prepared to hang on to, and make a life with, if a pregnancy results. If that were/is the case, then I guess sex woud be as popular as pensioners playing 'chicken' on route 66.

In my view, sex is there to be enjoyed - anyone not availing themselves of this is missing out on one of the natural joys of life.

If I gave that impression, I phrased my comments badly (blame it on the fact I wasn't properly awake).
I couldn't agree more, sex is definitely there to be enjoyed, why else are we all on this site??

My point, if I was making one (I'm not sure now, what I was trying to do), is that enjoyment and responsibility should not be exclusive of each other. I tend to think the second enhances the first.

Mat

 

[Teenage Venus]

enjoyment and responsibility should not be exclusive of each other. I tend to think the second enhances the first.

We are sure agreed on that. And I would add that the first without the second shows imaturity, selfishness, and total lack of consideration for any partner.

 

[matriarch]

We are sure agreed on that. And I would add that the first without the second shows imaturity, selfishness, and total lack of consideration for any partner.