Proofread Manx 12-5-02

[KillerMuffin]

I've been a lurker here for a quite a while and have finally appeared from behind the tree.

Your comments and critque of my third story (5-pager) to Lit, in the ROMANCE category, are appreciated:

"Queen of Hearts"
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=64675

I am an amateur writer who is new to writing erotica (for less than a year now). I do it for interested readers--it's also fun for me too (so far). But it is time for some honest feedback--dammit!--from the serious side of this site.

So, I'm interested in the following, plus whatever you have to offer or would like to comment on further:

1. What technical (grammar, spelling, etc.) errors did you find? And believe me, this should not be a problem (even after my "proofing" this thing a number of times, I was still amazed at the gotcha's after re-reading the post to the Main Story Site).

2. What did you think of the story and it's believability?

3. Were the characters developed sufficiently?

4. What did you like/dislike about the romance, erotic and sexual content?

5. Did this really fit well into the ROMANCE category, or should this have been posted in EROTIC COUPLINGS?

6. Finally, a comment from you regarding "editing" a story after receiving feedback and resubmitting. Do you do it? Would you recommend I do it?

Thanks and regards,
ProofreadManx

 

[TheEarl]

Whoah, PRM. That's quite long. I'm reading it at the moment and will comment later. Just in case you were worried that no-one was going to comment.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

Almost forgot about this thing.

Thanks, Earl, and from the looks of the [start oozing sarcasm]overwhelming response thus far [end oozing sarcasm], you may be the only one reviewing it.

And that, my friend, would be a nice dialog between you and I when you're ready. But don't pull any punches, because in my responses back, I surely won't.

To your remark above, yeah, it's a "Lit 5-pager"; (I could hear the comments now: "*Sigh* ... for Chrissakes ProofreadManx, we all have real lives out here. Do you think we have time to read..."). It's just that personally have a strong preference for "long" romance tales, and I'm NOT going to apologize for that (there are other stories that have been written that are as long or longer).

I just would hope there are those that would enter the discussion to make it informative--I'm certainly prepared to do so. I am a newbie to the SDC and may be unfamiliar to many of you, but don't be bashful (I'm not)--come in to say hi and critique.


Thanks, again.

Regards, Manxy.

 

[the_bragis]

Excellent!

Hello ProofreadManx,

I have just finished reading your story. I am not an expert or an editor by any stretch, so I can’t comment on your spelling, grammar, etc. I am, however, happy to give you my thought and opinions as a reader of erotica.

Yes five pages is a long story, and usually when reading something like this in Lit, I will skim over passages, or skip parts that I feel are superfluous, but not this time. I clung to every word.

Let me tell you, this one had me flicking through my thesaurus for all the right superlatives. It's actually one of the most professional and enjoyable stories I have had the pleasure of reading in here. It's H O T hot!

What did I think of the story and it's believability?

Well this could happen I guess. It might be a bit of a stretch of the imagination, but I believe it could certianly happen. Why has happened to you Manx? In any case I have enough real life drama in my life to last a life time, so I don’t mind a story that goes a little beyond the limits of ‘believability’.

Were the characters developed sufficiently?

Yes, I thought so. As a female reader I got extremely frustrated with Eric being so suborn and selfish. I'm sure men reading it, would understand his character better. I know women like Liz's character; they are delightful, warm and giving no matter what. I guess it was the pushing and pulling between them was one of the things that made the story so interesting.

Eric's brooding, moody, not to mention pessimistic and selfish character was a stark contract to Liz's being so delightful, fresh, forgiving and giving. I know some people will read your story and say, oh but why what would a woman like that see in a man like him. Well damn it, I know couples like this in real life, I really do, you know?

What did I like/dislike about the romance, erotic and sexual content?

I enjoyed it all. Even if Eric was too dumb to recognise a great woman Liz was from the outset. Mmm ... dumb subborn male - come to think of it, maybe that was what made his character so 'believable', just kidding. I especially enjoyed the dialog between the characters. It was 'real' and consistent. For me it was one of the highlights of this story. I just love good dialog.

Did this really fit well into the ROMANCE category, or should this have been posted in EROTIC COUPLINGS?

Many stories post in Literotica cover more than one category. So Max , you just keep writing your hot little stories, and keen readers like me, who enjoying reading you work, will always seek your stories out, where ever you post them.

Finally, a comment from me regarding "editing" a story after receiving feedback and resubmitting. Do I do it? Would I recommend you do it?

I do it all the time. It must drive Laurel crazy. It's really up to you Manx what you do with your stories. People in here a whole lot smarter than me have advised me, "Never rehash an old story, just move on', but if something is really bugging me, I just can't. I guess everyone is different.

This is what else I noted as I read:

Thursday's temperatures wavered between cool and warm, but I decidedly opened my window to coax the outside in to cleanse the stuffy air. Restless and frustrated, I rubbed the permanent groove at the base of my ring finger—a remnant scar caused by an absent, seven-year wedding band. My divorce anniversary, tomorrow, nagged at me with prickly irritability; for this thirty-one year old male, it was getting too old to be single again. Since the renewing season and I parted company last year, April's showers were not on my list of favorite weather. That changed today. Lingering near the window a while longer, a cool breeze fingered my warm face—the long winter was over—I welcomed spring back and made amends.

There is just this one single paragraph I didn't get. It's as if you jotted it down and didn't quite check it through. Maybe it's just me, yes that's quite possible, but I felt a number of things read oddly here. Why? 'And decidedly' or so decided? 'Cleanse'or clean out? 'Prickly irritability' or prickly irritation? 'It' or he was getting too old to be single? What is 'a renewing season' exactly and how do you 'part from it'? 'List of favour weather' or favourite things? And ' a cool breeze fingering', I just couldn't relate this. Breezes brush or caress me, fingering to me sounds almost sexual.

Ok, I’m being super picky here, and what follows certain is one of the hottest stories I have read in here in some time. I guess the point is, I'm a pretty average kind of reader, if it reads oddly to me, it may to others also. Since it's at the start of your story, that's not a good thing either really is it?

You have some really nice and fresh metaphors there. I especially like "My previously expensive cover charge to reenter bachelorhood—now eased by Sue's remarrying—" I bet a lot of divorced men could relate to that one.

I don't understand what 'spiraled into a funk' is. I am guessing it's some kind of US slang. Remember Max, you story is being read worldwide.

34D, pert breasts

Some readers find such specifics too much. Personally, I find a 34D breast just too much period. You would be wise to describe Liz's lovely big breasts, and let the reader decide how big exactly they would like them to be. Also, you later describe Liz as being 'diminutive' and this to me, at any rate, is a contradiction.

Suddenly, my tigress pounced, "Wanna fuck me in the copier room?"


You really have talent for bring the sex to boiling point Manx, and this line really sent me from zero to hot as hell in seconds.
Oh boy, that sex scene in the photocopier room had me sweating! Your descriptions are incredible! That was almost a story in its own right.

Ego and id still fought

Typical male!

Overall I really enjoyed this. Chelsea and Melia were an interesting little tease on the side too. The little twist towards the end was a good one, although it would be unfair to go into it
too much here for people who haven't read your story yet.

The card metaphor the story is based on, was in my opinion, clever, witty and different. You know what else? I think that's something all of us play out in our lives at some time.

There is little else I can say Manx. You're a very talented.

I wish you well with your future writing.

Alex (fem).

(sorry about mispelling your name earlier)

 

[PaulX35]

Not a bad debut at all!

Hi PRM

Congrats on getting that first story out here is the first I'd like to say. And judging from what you presented us with, my basic reply would be: I want more!

You're a darn talented writer, and you sure know how to make your hot scenes sizzle!

So, please, view my comments from the perspective that I found this one of the best first stories ever read. In the future, you may want to consider posting on the Story Feedback Forum? My estimation is that you're bound to get more feedback there; it's a great bunch of different perspectives out there, and you'll learn a lot from asking for feedback there.

You have a great way of adding in thoughts, feelings etc in your story. You also possess an interesting vocabulary of words, that's really different from the ordinary. One thing might be a danger, though, and that would be that your style of writing has a tendency to become somewhat baroque, which could take the flow and easy reading out of it.
An example:
Pummeling my hips forward to piston her womb with my spearing sword, the tip of my engorged mushroom head felt for the entrance of her cervix

For my taste, this was just a bit too much of unusual words. A few will add that special touch of your style, but all I can say here is: use with well-judged quantity and don't let it backfire on your talent.

In more general terms, I found the mid-section of the story a bit too long. There's a lot of doubts, uncertainties and stuff to tackle there, obviously, and I well realize you do need a bit of writing to make the transition a credible one, but still. A thing you might want to consider is breaking the story up to create a larger time-frame, which would more naturally allow his change of mind to develop.

Finally, a few nit-picky comments:
"When your vineyard starts making a wine as good as your 1982 Chablis," I quipped at his incessant joke.

Okay, you were unlucky to run into a wine buff .

I love details like these, but you might want to make them correct, to also make them appear credible to the wine lover.

Assuming this story plays in 2002, a 1982 Chablis would not be a treat to drink now: 1982 was not a vintage to keep and a straight Chablis should be consumed within a few years of age. Both 1999 and 2000 would make credible alternatives vintage-wise, and if you want to insist on something really old as a detail, you should go up the ladder of quality. But not even the greatest grand cru 1982 Chablis is likely to have stood the test of time, I'd say.

The 1994 Chablis further up in the story would just pass in terms of drinkability, assuming it's the real French stuff and not what is often labelled as "Chablis" in the USA or Australia.

Paul decanted a mouthful of wine in my glass for a test taste.
Decanting is pouring a wine into a caraff, either to seperate and old wine from its deposit or to aerate a young wine before drinking. A 1994 Chablis would not be in need of either.

I'll look forward to more of your writing! Good luck with it.

Paul

 

[Just_John1]

I'm reading!

Just haven't finished yet, but don't fret, responses are coming!

 

[Guest]

Re: Excellent!

Hello ProofreadManx,

Hello, the_bragis. Thank you for taking the time to read the story. And thank you for your very kind comments. I would like to take the time to clarify some of your comments since you were gracious with the time to read and to post here. And since yours the first to comment, maybe some of this will help others that do read and wish to comment as well.

What did I think of the story and it's believability?

Well this could happen I guess. It might be a bit of a stretch of the imagination, but I believe it could certianly happen. Why has happened to you Manx? In any case I have enough real life drama in my life to last a life time, so I don’t mind a story that goes a little beyond the limits of ‘believability’.
The story is mostly fiction. The sex scene (not mine, LOL), did happen, IF I was to believe the one of the guys that comprised my composite character, Eric (see next comment).

Were the characters developed sufficiently?

Yes, I thought so. As a female reader I got extremely frustrated with Eric being so suborn and selfish. I'm sure men reading it, would understand his character better. I know women like Liz's character; they are delightful, warm and giving no matter what. I guess it was the pushing and pulling between them was one of the things that made the story so interesting.

Eric's brooding, moody, not to mention pessimistic and selfish character was a stark contract to Liz's being so delightful, fresh, forgiving and giving. I know some people will read your story and say, oh but why what would a woman like that see in a man like him. Well damn it, I know couples like this in real life, I really do, you know?
The story is a composite of ideas and people I know/knew, that are divorced, and, to some extent, are a miserable lot. "E.R.I.C." was my acronym for four guys I have known of the years that fall into this category. Elizabeth, of course, needed to be developed to be a very, Very, VERY sweet and tolerant lady to counterbalance the asshole Eric had become only in the past "several" weeks; nevertheless, most other women probably would have left the bastard. So I wondered if someone as sweet as Elizabeth could actually exist and at the same time become be true-to-life. When I was complete with her sweet character, I certainly wanted to marry her! Liz, my inspiration, was also modeled after a very sweet Bohemian Queen Elizabeth, who was also known as the "Queen of Hearts" in her day--some history I relied on to help me in my inspiration to develop our sweetheart, Elizabeth-the-present.


What did I like/dislike about the romance, erotic and sexual content?

I enjoyed it all. Even if Eric was too dumb to recognise a great woman Liz was from the outset. Mmm ... dumb subborn male - come to think of it, maybe that was what made his character so 'believable', just kidding. I especially enjoyed the dialog between the characters. It was 'real' and consistent. For me it was one of the highlights of this story. I just love good dialog.
Eric (and I know this from some of the idiots I still call friends) was self-consuming and introspective--at least during these past "two weeks"; but otherwise a nice guy (Liz still loved him, LOL). If you got the feeling he was a stubborn male that you could just reach across the table and slap at times, I want to thank you for your comment--that's exactly what I wanted him to be. His final redeeming quality, in the end, was that he came to his 'senses'--after ego and id dissolved--and did the right thing, afterall.

I also love dialog, the_bragis. I spend a lot of time on it; it enriches and provides a 3rd (spacial) and 4th dimenstional (time) elements to the 2-dimensional piece of paper I write on.

Did this really fit well into the ROMANCE category, or should this have been posted in EROTIC COUPLINGS?

Many stories post in Literotica cover more than one category. So Max , you just keep writing your hot little stories, and keen readers like me, who enjoying reading you work, will always seek your stories out, where ever you post them.
You deftly tip-toed around that, but I really struggled with this. In fact, I spent another two weeks editing the story to MAKE it fit into ROMANCE--in the end, I thought I had something more to say that 'just another' erotic tale.

Finally, a comment from me regarding "editing" a story after receiving feedback and resubmitting. Do I do it? Would I recommend you do it?

I do it all the time. It must drive Laurel crazy. It's really up to you Manx what you do with your stories. People in here a whole lot smarter than me have advised me, "Never rehash an old story, just move on', but if something is really bugging me, I just can't. I guess everyone is different.
I'm glad to hear that. You know why from me? I have discovered I no longer just write for me, but instead for the many friends I have here on Lit that have encouraged me--with story production, thoughts, and ideas. So I continually try to improve and modify the stories as a tribute to them that provide feedback and interest. Plus, Laurel does it with no hassle (she is a sweetie and we should all her!).

This is what else I noted as I read:

Thursday's temperatures wavered between cool and warm, but I decidedly opened my window to coax the outside in to cleanse the stuffy air. Restless and frustrated, I rubbed the permanent groove at the base of my ring finger—a remnant scar caused by an absent, seven-year wedding band. My divorce anniversary, tomorrow, nagged at me with prickly irritability; for this thirty-one year old male, it was getting too old to be single again. Since the renewing season and I parted company last year, April's showers were not on my list of favorite weather. That changed today. Lingering near the window a while longer, a cool breeze fingered my warm face—the long winter was over—I welcomed spring back and made amends.

There is just this one single paragraph I didn't get. It's as if you jotted it down and didn't quite check it through. Maybe it's just me, yes that's quite possible, but I felt a number of things read oddly here. Why? 'And decidedly' or so decided? 'Cleanse'or clean out? 'Prickly irritability' or prickly irritation? 'It' or he was getting too old to be single? What is 'a renewing season' exactly and how do you 'part from it'? 'List of favour weather' or favourite things? And ' a cool breeze fingering', I just couldn't relate this. Breezes brush or caress me, fingering to me sounds almost sexual.
I spent a lot of time on this paragraph, BTW, LOL! "Decidedly" is one word (an adverb) that does the work of two, "so decided", and other combinations. 'Cleanse' vs. clean out (same comment, above--word economy). 'Prickly irritation' is a 'rash'--he was irritable (and a prick, LOL!--get it now?). The 'renewing season' is spring--my metaphor. 'Cool breeze fingering...' Please allow me a 'little' poetic license--the breeze WAS meant to be sensual (he needed a good stroking). That said, OK, I'm glad you found something wrong!

Ok, I’m being super picky here, and what follows certain is one of the hottest stories I have read in here in some time. I guess the point is, I'm a pretty average kind of reader, if it reads oddly to me, it may to others also. Since it's at the start of your story, that's not a good thing either really is it?
I really don't think you were 'picky'. Your comments are yours--forever--thoughtful and important to me. You see, I have to write for an audience that likes what I put out, and as writers, we have an obligation to listen if we still want an audience.

You have some really nice and fresh metaphors there. I especially like "My previously expensive cover charge to reenter bachelorhood—now eased by Sue's remarrying—" I bet a lot of divorced men could relate to that one.
I've never divorced (came close), but for those that I see, looking to the left of me, and looking to the right of me--those 50%+ statistics for divorced males in our country--many should and would relate to some of this.

I don't understand what 'spiraled into a funk' is. I am guessing it's some kind of US slang. Remember Max, you story is being read worldwide.
"Funk", in this context, is a 'depressed state of mind.'

34D, pert breasts

Some readers find such specifics too much. Personally, I find a 34D breast just too much period. You would be wise to describe Liz's lovely big breasts, and let the reader decide how big exactly they would like them to be. Also, you later describe Liz as being 'diminutive' and this to me, at any rate, is a contradiction.
Sorry, I love breasts, especially on petite ladies . And the guy in me wanted to describe them--a morsel, also, for my male reader friends. No, seriously, your point is very well-taken, and that is the amateur in me talking--it IS much better to describe someone more subtly and over a stretch of several paragraphs--something I need to work on.

Suddenly, my tigress pounced, "Wanna fuck me in the copier room?"

You really have talent for bring the sex to boiling point Manx, and this line really sent me from zero to hot as hell in seconds.
Oh boy, that sex scene in the photocopier room had me sweating! Your descriptions are incredible! That was almost a story in its own right.
I liked the idea of confined space here, where the two of them were having wet, juicy sex--did you smell it?

Ego and id still fought

Typical male!
Thank you.

A little pseudo-psychology there--just to prove that id and ego are only a figment of our imagination--and NO apologies to Freud.

Overall I really enjoyed this. Chelsea and Melia were an interesting little tease on the side too. The little twist towards the end was a good one, although it would be unfair to go into it
too much here for people who haven't read your story yet.
Chelsea and Melia, if you care to read, were drawn in from my 'other' story, Melia's Time. I'm using this 'mechanism' to very loosely bridge my stories with characters introduced elsewhere by me.

The card metaphor the story is based on, was in my opinion, clever, witty and different. You know what else? I think that's something all of us play out in our lives at some time.
The card metaphor came from my starting reference, courtesy of Lewis Carroll, and the reference to The Eagle's hit "Desperado"--hope you caught that. I just HAD to weave that puppy in once I had an additional link to Queen Elizabeth, the "Queen of Hearts".

There is little else I can say Manx. You're a very talented.
Thank you, again, Alex, for you kind comments (wow). I often wish I had started writing 20 years ago. It's only during the last year or so that I realized I had an 'audience' for my erotic ramblings. *Sigh*

I wish you well with your future writing.

Alex (fem).

(sorry about mispelling your name earlier) [/B]

____

Thanks, again,
Manxy

 

[Guest]

Reserved for PaulX35's Comments...

Not a bad debut at all!
Hi PRM

Hello, Paul. Thank you for taking the time to read my story and provide commentary. And time for me to clarify some of your remarks:

Congrats on getting that first story out here is the first I'd like to say. And judging from what you presented us with, my basic reply would be: I want more!
Just a minor point of clarification: Queen of Hearts is my 3rd story post on Lit; 1st here on the SDC. Feel free to read two shorter stories, only 3-pages each, LOL, Melia's Time (my very 1st submission, a Group Sex), and Erotic Dance (my 2nd, a Lesbian).

So, please, view my comments from the perspective that I found this one of the best first stories ever read. In the future, you may want to consider posting on the Story Feedback Forum? My estimation is that you're bound to get more feedback there; it's a great bunch of different perspectives out there, and you'll learn a lot from asking for feedback there.
Holy cripes, Batman! That's a pretty powerful comment there (maybe you're just being nice to the SDC-newbie)! I have been a silent lurker here on this 'quiet' side of Lit. I have considered posting on the Story Feedback Forum, and still may do it, but, quite honestly, I'm here on the SDC, not so much for the recognition--in fact--quite the opposite; the extrovert in me plays too much as it is on the GB. The SDC is one of the few places on Lit where I value the thoughtful time for 'sane' people, like yourselves, that logically converse, share ideas, comment, and review. I also learn about writing, especially erotic writing, a hobby of mine--not for the money or fame or fortune--but as a serious hobby that I enjoy immensely without the pressures of publication and deadlines (I get enough of that from my R/L job).

.
.
.
For my taste, this was just a bit too much of unusual words. A few will add that special touch of your style, but all I can say here is: use with well-judged quantity and don't let it backfire on your talent.
You're not the first person that has told me that, BTW. I'm still searching for a 'style'--that is complementary to what I would like to express and what our readers would like to read. Thanks for the comments, though (always). With only 3 stories under my belt, I've got a ways to go to smooth over a lot of what has been said here (and what likely will be said).

In more general terms, I found the mid-section of the story a bit too long. There's a lot of doubts, uncertainties and stuff to tackle there, obviously, and I well realize you do need a bit of writing to make the transition a credible one, but still. A thing you might want to consider is breaking the story up to create a larger time-frame, which would more naturally allow his change of mind to develop.
It's always a danger if you're trying to tell too much, isn't it? But my brain was oozing for two months! I was also surprised (and genuinely concerned) when I finally rolled this story up in final manuscript form and saw close to 40 WORD pages. In fact, the 'story' kernel actually started in the middle--it WAS going to be a "Voyeur"-short on phone-sex. But then things just started taking off, and before I knew it...

Finally, a few nit-picky comments:
"When your vineyard starts making a wine as good as your 1982 Chablis," I quipped at his incessant joke.

Okay, you were unlucky to run into a wine buff .
This should be good...so am I.

I love details like these, but you might want to make them correct, to also make them appear credible to the wine lover.

Assuming this story plays in 2002, a 1982 Chablis would not be a treat to drink now: 1982 was not a vintage to keep and a straight Chablis should be consumed within a few years of age. Both 1999 and 2000 would make credible alternatives vintage-wise, and if you want to insist on something really old as a detail, you should go up the ladder of quality. But not even the greatest grand cru 1982 Chablis is likely to have stood the test of time, I'd say.
Honestly, that was not the intent of the 1982 reference; but it is my fault for not clarifying it well enough. This point in time shows a deep, long relationship between Eric and Paul, and has nothing to do with him sampling any 1982 bottle of wine. Eric certainly adores his relationship with his longtime friend, has fond memories from the taste from that 'first good bottle' some years ago, and uses 1982 as a common point of reference when visiting the restaurant to meet Paul--a long-standing 'inside joke'?

The 1994 Chablis further up in the story would just pass in terms of drinkability, assuming it's the real French stuff and not what is often labelled as "Chablis" in the USA or Australia.
Bullshit, Paul, LOL. The case of "premium" (and aged) Chablis I have in my house is 11 years old, and at over US$35 per bottle, each sip is exquisite.

Also, to clarify, in the story, it's not the 'real' French stuff (which I adore, by the way), but it was (unfortunately) grown domestically--by Paul.

Paul decanted a mouthful of wine in my glass for a test taste.
Decanting is pouring a wine into a caraff, either to seperate and old wine from its deposit or to aerate a young wine before drinking. A 1994 Chablis would not be in need of either.
Agreed, Paul! Bad word choice altogther. He should have just "poured" it into the glass (which he did, never actually 'decanting' it). Good point.

I'll look forward to more of your writing! Good luck with it.

Paul

Thanks for introducing yourself, and again, for your time to read and post your commentary, all very much appreciated!

Manxy

 

[Just_John1]

1. What technical (grammar, spelling, etc.) errors did you find? And believe me, this should not be a problem (even after my "proofing" this thing a number of times, I was still amazed at the gotcha's after re-reading the post to the Main Story Site).

I won't spend a lot of time on technical issues, I've never been really good at that. I think Alex and TheEarl and Big Texan or Dr Mab, can and will do a much better job than I can on these. I will say however that I didn't find too much technically wrong and I wasn't distracted by grammatical errors and typos through the story.

I guess the only real constructive criticism I can offer is the first four paragraphs. Although I got the message and started to understand I thought they sounded contrived, perhaps pretentious. I remember reading this story when it first came out and got through these praragraphs to finish reading a truely well written and entertaining story but doing an indepth critque I found these paragraphs tedious to get through.

Don't get me wrong, when I took the time to seriously read them I found them colorful, and at a par rarely seen here at Lit, but it seemed like you were trying a little too hard. Only the first four paragraphs or so mind you. Sorry, but you asked for our opinion.

2. What did you think of the story and it's believability?

I thought the story was damn good! I thought it was hot, and found myself suspending believability without effort. It has not been my experience that I could tell a woman I'm not willing to use the words "I love you" and she still wants to fuck me in the copier room! I was eagerly willing to believe that she'd do it for Eric though. I really liked the undercurrent and you knew he would end up admitting that he loved Liz but I was fascinated with the story. Even though I knew what the ending would be I
was interested enough to want to read the goings on. I really liked the twists and turns. Loved the twist at the end.

3. Were the characters developed sufficiently?

Absolutely. I liked the way that we got to know Eric pretty quick (sorry about the "complaints" about the first four paragraphs) but it took a while to get to know Liz, I felt that we got to know her better through her actions than a detailed description. I thought that lended some credibility, or at least willingness to suspend belief to the story. I found myself interested in the characters, felt that I knew them well enough to understand their feelings and thoughts so to speak.

4. What did you like/dislike about the romance, erotic and sexual content?

The first sex scene in the copier room I felt like I was coming into the story midstream (actually we were) and if that was your intention Kudos! I thought the sex descriptions were well thought out, detailed enough and HOT! Very good job. I thought the romantic undertone through out the story was great and really gave the story a "flavor" I also was getting frustrated with Eric and his reticence to admit he loved this girl I mean what red blooded male would n't love a woman that would do you in the copier room, and try to keep you through phone sex? The perverbial nympho whose father owns the liquor store!

5. Did this really fit well into the ROMANCE category, or should this have been posted in EROTIC COUPLINGS?

Could have been either category. I think like most stories it bridges a couple of categories. I thought it was hot enough to make the erotic couplings readers happy and it could've just as easily pleased the romantic category readers.

6. Finally, a comment from you regarding "editing" a story after receiving feedback and resubmitting. Do you do it? Would you recommend I do it? '

I've never done it, don't know if that's my lack of perserverance in my pursuit of perfection or if I'm just lazy. When I finish a story, after proofing it several times and at least one rewrite, I usually don't re-read it for several months at least. I don't know how much of a hassle it is for Laurel to re-post things but if you feel you've made a big enough mistake perhaps it would be worth it. By the time I read one of my stories posts on the web its way to late for an edit to be worthwhile for me.

My general comments on the story you ask? (please ask...) I thought it was a great story the first time I read it (voted on it then, gave you a 5 which I do rarely). Now that I've taken the time to dissect it? I still think its a great story! I think you have true talent and its obvious you enjoy your work. Keep it up and I'll now go and look up your other stuff.

Hope this helps

JJ1

 

[Guest]

Reserved for Just_John's comments...

Originally posted by Just_John1

Just_John1, thanks for taking the time to read and comment.
.
.
.
1. I guess the only real constructive criticism I can offer is the first four paragraphs. Although I got the message and started to understand I thought they sounded contrived, perhaps pretentious. I remember reading this story when it first came out and got through these praragraphs to finish reading a truely well written and entertaining story but doing an indepth critque I found these paragraphs tedious to get through.

Don't get me wrong, when I took the time to seriously read them I found them colorful, and at a par rarely seen here at Lit, but it seemed like you were trying a little too hard. Only the first four paragraphs or so mind you. Sorry, but you asked for our opinion.
Fair, thoughtful comments. I certainly did not want to confuse people, but instead give an opening into a single guy's introspection during a rough two weeks in his life. Eric was tedious, as a character, intentionally so, but to your point, JJ1, the 'writing' doesn't have to be!

2. I thought the story was damn good! I thought it was hot, and found myself suspending believability without effort. It has not been my experience that I could tell a woman I'm not willing to use the words "I love you" and she still wants to fuck me in the copier room! I was eagerly willing to believe that she'd do it for Eric though. I really liked the undercurrent and you knew he would end up admitting that he loved Liz but I was fascinated with the story. Even though I knew what the ending would be I
was interested enough to want to read the goings on. I really liked the twists and turns. Loved the twist at the end.
Thanks for the comments. Many of my lady friends, in private PM's, made it a POINT to tell me they 'knew it was her' all along. I certainly dropped enough hints, I suppose, but it wasn't my intent to make this a detective story, either. LOL!

3. Absolutely. I liked the way that we got to know Eric pretty quick (sorry about the "complaints" about the first four paragraphs) but it took a while to get to know Liz, I felt that we got to know her better through her actions than a detailed description. I thought that lended some credibility, or at least willingness to suspend belief to the story. I found myself interested in the characters, felt that I knew them well enough to understand their feelings and thoughts so to speak.
The variety of commentary is enriching and important--variety and interest is what we writers hopefully strive for when we develop our characters (and we can only hope our readers agree). We can't all like the same thing all the time. I'm taking notes, though!

4. The first sex scene in the copier room I felt like I was coming into the story midstream (actually we were) and if that was your intention Kudos! I thought the sex descriptions were well thought out, detailed enough and HOT! Very good job. I thought the romantic undertone through out the story was great and really gave the story a "flavor" I also was getting frustrated with Eric and his reticence to admit he loved this girl I mean what red blooded male would n't love a woman that would do you in the copier room, and try to keep you through phone sex? The perverbial nympho whose father owns the liquor store!
The honest truth is that there are a few guys that I know, especially after a marriage, and after an opportunity to play the field, again, that find it very difficult to 'fall into that trap again--marriage,' and then there are some that should never have married in the first place, LOL! They ARE a frustrating lot to be around! But the real story wasn't about them (or him)--it was about one of sweetest and sexiest ladies you'd ever want to meet and fall in love with, Elizabeth!

5. Could have been either category. I think like most stories it bridges a couple of categories. I thought it was hot enough to make the erotic couplings readers happy and it could've just as easily pleased the romantic category readers.
See my comments to the_bragis above. Thanks for yours.

6. I've never done it, don't know if that's my lack of perserverance in my pursuit of perfection or if I'm just lazy. When I finish a story, after proofing it several times and at least one rewrite, I usually don't re-read it for several months at least. I don't know how much of a hassle it is for Laurel to re-post things but if you feel you've made a big enough mistake perhaps it would be worth it. By the time I read one of my stories posts on the web its way to late for an edit to be worthwhile for me.
I've thought long and hard on this, and seen good reasons on both sides to do or not to do. I do it--I do it as a service to our fans (our readers and fellow writers). And what any good writer and good publisher would and should want to do, right? Another chance to improve on something (and new Edition) as well as to offer a 'better' version for someone else to read, whether for the 1st time, or, again (we like repeat customers)! I'm here to encourage it, BTW--and why not?

My general comments on the story you ask? (please ask...) I thought it was a great story the first time I read it (voted on it then, gave you a 5 which I do rarely). Now that I've taken the time to dissect it? I still think its a great story! I think you have true talent and its obvious you enjoy your work. Keep it up and I'll now go and look up your other stuff.

Hope this helps
It does--very kinds words and thoughtful commentary.

JJ1

JJ1, thanks again for introducing yourself, and for your time, and for your comments, and for your vote.

Manxy

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Good Work

Manx,

This is a good, imaginative work. For a first submission, it’s very good. You’ve got a real love of language and have created some interesting characters. IMHO, you’ve got the potential to be a first-rate writer.

But you’re not there, of course. That’s what this critique business is all about. Remember, what follows is strictly MY HUMBLE OPINION. It includes some suggestions and ideas you might want to consider if and when you revise this piece.

I’ve got a hunch, you’ve worked on this story for a long time. In spots, such as the opening, it feels over-written, over-worked. Your love of language may sometimes get in the way of your storytelling. There are also some copyediting type issues, such as having the word “my” appear six times in one sentence.

As you wade through my input, remember, your story was a lot better than most first efforts, including mine. Hope some of this helps.

Rumple Foreskin

--

“Thursday's temperatures wavered between cool and warm, but I decidedly opened my window to coax the outside in to cleanse the stuffy air.”

IMHO, and that of Webster, “decidedly” is an adverb of “decided” not “decide.” Here are the definitions.
Decide: to solve or conclude
Decided, Decidedly: in no way uncertain, free from hesitation

The main problem however, isn’t whether it’s grammatically right or wrong, but that, IMHO, “decidedly” sounds awkward.

“A reverse-metamorphosis painfully transformed a hopeful marriage full of joyful idealism and boisterous vision of a modern-day Camelot into a mundane, pragmatic tolerance: an untidy compromise that would not forgive the perpetuating error of infatuation's deceit.”

My problem with “reverse-metamorphosis is two fold: it makes me stop reading to think. That’s something we writers usually don’t want our readers doing, especially in the first few paragraphs. And even after I’d stopped to think, it still made no sense.

I’m not positive, but I think the word you wanted was the verb “metamorphose” not the noun “metamorphosis”. That quibble aside, both refer to a change, unless the marriage began as, “a mundane, pragmatic tolerance (great phrase by the way) then changed into “a hopeful marriage,” how could there be a “reverse-metamorphosis” back to "a mundane...?"

All of this highlights what, IMHO, is the main problem with your opening; it’s way too wordy and high-tone. I ran the MS Word grammar checker over the first nine paragraphs. The ease of reading was 45.8 out of 100 (the higher the better) and the grade level was 11.4. According to Word, an average document should be between 70-80 and 7-8.

Once dialogue kicks in, the scores will improve, (most fiction would rank even lower on the grade level) but many readers might have bailed out by then. None of that means what you’re doing is wrong. If that’s the way you want to write, then do it. Heck, maybe you’ll launch a new wave of literate literature. Just be aware it may cut down on your readership.

--

“Clutching a bundle of file folders to her proud, curvaceous body—tightly packaged with shoulder length, jet-black hair that bobbed in harmony with her bouncing, 34D, pert breasts—Liz turned into the copier room to reproduce some reports for the monthly finance briefing. More invigorating than the outside air, I breathed in her clean fragrance as she passed my desk. I sighed aloud at her well-toned muscular legs and undulating ass accentuated by her tight fitting dress.

"Good morning, Eric," Elizabeth flirted. Her fresh bouquet delighted my nose after she walked passed.

Other folks have, I believe, pointed out the 34D business. Another suggestion would be to reconsider giving her age in the preceding paragraph. Also, how did he know what she was going to reproduce in the copier room and, unless his desk is in the copier room but he can still see down the corridor, how can she turn into the room if she hasn’t yet passed his desk and how can they begin a dialogue?

Choreographing a scene can drive a writer nuts. I’ve been there and back.

--

The sex in the copier room episode was nice and hot, but this passage temporarily threw me out of the scene.

“After uncoiling my cramped erection in my pants with my hand, the throbbing pole uncomfortably sprung upward to wedge against my belt buckle. Instinctively, I pressed my elongating muscle along the large, moistened spot in the crease of her panties.”

Read literally, the first sentence seems to say he uncoiled his cramped erection in his pants. (omit “with my hand”) Of course, any man who has an erection coiled inside his pants or anywhere else for that matter, has my sympathy. The entire sentence also has “my” used four times.

At the end of sentence one, his pole is wedged against his belt buckle. But in the next sentence, he’s pressing that same “elongating (ed?) muscle along the large, moistened spot in the crease of her panties.” A little transition might clarify the situation. “Instinctively, I ground my hips against her beautiful bottom, pressing my elongated (not elongating) muscle….”

--

A few paragraphs later, Eric’s erect endowment enters (my name is Rumple, and I’m a non-recovering alliterator) back into the scene.

“Unbuckling my belt to allow my pants to drop to my calves, my unassisted cock poked through the opening in my boxer shorts; a minor time convenience, there was no need to pull my underwear down further.”

Putting these two passages together, reveals that Eric must have kept his erection inside his pants earlier. It might be a good idea to point that out for those of us who are slow on the uptake. Also, in that last sentence “my” shows up six times.

--

Q & A

1. I’ve mentioned some grammar type errors. Most were nothing a good proof by someone else wouldn’t have caught. It’s hard for most of us to proof our own stuff.

2. The believability seemed thin in places. Having worked in an office, the opening scenes with Liz rubbing all over Eric seemed almost as far-fetched as his ability to resist her charms.

3. Character development was well done.

4. IMHO, this was more erotic than romantic and, at times, the sex seemed a tad clinical and crude in comparison.

5. Knowing where to place a story is a challenge. The one I’ve got waiting for working over on this board includes some interracial, lesbian, incest, group, anal and, oh yeah, heterosexual scenes plus a touch of romance. I put it in Erotic Couplings. Due to the sex scenes, that’s where I’d also have placed this story.

6. As for editing after being critiqued, not only do I do it, I save most of the critiques.

--

For here on, anything I’d write would just be variations on a theme. Watch out for overly elevated language, repeated words, and double-check each scene's choreography. Because it’s very late here in Big D and I’ve already spent over three hours on this critique, I’ll spare both of us any more pain. However, if you have any questions about any of this or, for some masochistic reason want me to work over another section, just send me a PM.

You’ve got a lot of promise, Manx, I hope you stick to your writing. You might also think about tossing out some critiques of your own. I’m convinced the critique givers get more out of the process than do those who receive the suckers. RF

 

[Guest]

Reserved for respones to Rumple Foreskin

RF, thank you for taking the time to read and comment. And now allow me, IMHO, to respond back to you as well.

--

“Thursday's temperatures wavered between cool and warm, but I decidedly opened my window to coax the outside in to cleanse the stuffy air.”

IMHO, and that of Webster, “decidedly” is an adverb of “decided” not “decide.” Here are the definitions.
Decide: to solve or conclude
Decided, Decidedly: in no way uncertain, free from hesitation

The main problem however, isn’t whether it’s grammatically right or wrong, but that, IMHO, “decidedly” sounds awkward.
So we can agree he opened the window free from hesitation.

“A reverse-metamorphosis painfully transformed a hopeful marriage full of joyful idealism and boisterous vision of a modern-day Camelot into a mundane, pragmatic tolerance: an untidy compromise that would not forgive the perpetuating error of infatuation's deceit.”

My problem with “reverse-metamorphosis is two fold: it makes me stop reading to think. That’s something we writers usually don’t want our readers doing, especially in the first few paragraphs. And even after I’d stopped to think, it still made no sense.
A-h-h. The continuing problems with the first several paragraphs.

I’m not positive, but I think the word you wanted was the verb “metamorphose” not the noun “metamorphosis”. That quibble aside, both refer to a change, unless the marriage began as, “a mundane, pragmatic tolerance (great phrase by the way) then changed into “a hopeful marriage,” how could there be a “reverse-metamorphosis” back to "a mundane...?"
Well, a metamorphosis, from pupa to butterfly, is generally an interesting and beautiful transformation. A “reverse” kind, impossible in nature, I suppose, would be less interesting and ugly. The paragraph needs re-written. I’m on it. Okay, okay. I’m going to re-write the first several paragraphs.

P.S. “Metamorphose”? And you said “decidedly” sounded awkward? (Sorry, I had to do it, RF! )



All of this highlights what, IMHO, is the main problem with your opening; it’s way too wordy and high-tone. I ran the MS Word grammar checker over the first nine paragraphs. The ease of reading was 45.8 out of 100 (the higher the better) and the grade level was 11.4. According to Word, an average document should be between 70-80 and 7-8.

Once dialogue kicks in, the scores will improve, (most fiction would rank even lower on the grade level) but many readers might have bailed out by then. None of that means what you’re doing is wrong. If that’s the way you want to write, then do it. Heck, maybe you’ll launch a new wave of literate literature. Just be aware it may cut down on your readership.
Far be it for me to invite a different class of people to participate here, RF, LOL. No, I think all of the comments (ahead of you and some below you, as well) about the first three to four paragraphs are valid (*white flag waving vigorously from the trenches*).

Seriously, to support your statement, here’s why: the final statistics for the whole story were 71.5 (ease of reading) and 6.2 (grade)—talk about dummying things down! So, with that imbalance (45.8 and 11.4 initially, respectively), there certainly are opportunities to improve the readability of the first three or four paragraphs.

--

“Clutching a bundle of file folders to her proud, curvaceous body—tightly packaged with shoulder length, jet-black hair that bobbed in harmony with her bouncing, 34D, pert breasts—Liz turned into the copier room to reproduce some reports for the monthly finance briefing. More invigorating than the outside air, I breathed in her clean fragrance as she passed my desk. I sighed aloud at her well-toned muscular legs and undulating ass accentuated by her tight fitting dress.

"Good morning, Eric," Elizabeth flirted. Her fresh bouquet delighted my nose after she walked passed.

Other folks have, I believe, pointed out the 34D business. Another suggestion would be to reconsider giving her age in the preceding paragraph. Also, how did he know what she was going to reproduce in the copier room and, unless his desk is in the copier room but he can still see down the corridor, how can she turn into the room if she hasn’t yet passed his desk and how can they begin a dialogue?

Choreographing a scene can drive a writer nuts. I’ve been there and back.
Screenwriters call it continuity. I tried very hard to be careful with it. But it’s easy to miss. You’re exactly right! The sequence needs tweaked (an easy thing to do on the next edit). Thanks, you’re the first person to mention that to me.
--

The sex in the copier room episode was nice and hot, but this passage temporarily threw me out of the scene.

“After uncoiling my cramped erection in my pants with my hand, the throbbing pole uncomfortably sprung upward to wedge against my belt buckle. Instinctively, I pressed my elongating muscle along the large, moistened spot in the crease of her panties.”

Read literally, the first sentence seems to say he uncoiled his cramped erection in his pants. (omit “with my hand”) Of course, any man who has an erection coiled inside his pants or anywhere else for that matter, has my sympathy. The entire sentence also has “my” used four times.
Yes, literally, the coiled erection required uncoiling, in his pants, by ‘his’ hand, and not by hers, or by some other means (like rubbing it against her butt). I may decide to keep ‘my hand’.

At the end of sentence one, his pole is wedged against his belt buckle. But in the next sentence, he’s pressing that same “elongating (ed?) muscle along the large, moistened spot in the crease of her panties.” A little transition might clarify the situation. “Instinctively, I ground my hips against her beautiful bottom, pressing my elongated (not elongating) muscle….”
“Elongating” implies it isn’t all elongated—yet! But you bring up an important comment, nevertheless. If you had difficulty with it, it is likely someone else would also. I’ll consider recasting/clarifying.

--

A few paragraphs later, Eric’s erect endowment enters (my name is Rumple, and I’m a non-recovering alliterator) back into the scene.

“Unbuckling my belt to allow my pants to drop to my calves, my unassisted cock poked through the opening in my boxer shorts; a minor time convenience, there was no need to pull my underwear down further.”

Putting these two passages together, reveals that Eric must have kept his erection inside his pants earlier. It might be a good idea to point that out for those of us who are slow on the uptake. Also, in that last sentence “my” shows up six times.
Yes, his erection was in his pants, earlier. And I will consider that point of clarification on a future re-write/edit. And, yes, way too many fucking “my’s”!
--

Q & A

1. I’ve mentioned some grammar type errors. Most were nothing a good proof by someone else wouldn’t have caught. It’s hard for most of us to proof our own stuff.
I agree. I’ve tried several methods including starting with the last sentence and reading the story back to front. But it is always better to get another set of eyes to look at the semi-final product and comment—a good practice. And it certainly would have helped point out the difficulties with the first four paragraphs regarding their readability and difficulty.

2. The believability seemed thin in places. Having worked in an office, the opening scenes with Liz rubbing all over Eric seemed almost as far-fetched as his ability to resist her charms.
Sorry, but I’ve worked in and out of offices most of my life, too, and there isn’t anything quite as sexy as having a flirting secretary or female co-worker rub her nipples into your neck or upper back—intentionally!

3. Character development was well done.
Thanks. I certainly spent a lot of time on it.

4. IMHO, this was more erotic than romantic and, at times, the sex seemed a tad clinical and crude in comparison.
Thanks for your opinion. As I said before, I struggled with it, and it appears from other comments, this may be a ‘tweener’ that could fit into either. I was “this close” *showing index and thumb finger with one millimeter gap* to classify it as Erotic Coupling, but changed my mind. There is something to be said for first instincts. It will remain a romance, though.

5. Knowing where to place a story is a challenge. The one I’ve got waiting for working over on this board includes some interracial, lesbian, incest, group, anal and, oh yeah, heterosexual scenes plus a touch of romance. I put it in Erotic Couplings. Due to the sex scenes, that’s where I’d also have placed this story.
I look forward to reading that.

6. As for editing after being critiqued, not only do I do it, I save most of the critiques.
I whole-heartedly agree, RF. Particularly, after the comments on this thread regarding the first several paragraphs. A great opportunity, for me, to re-write and improve for future readers (and those that may want to come back and re-read again).
--

For here on, anything I’d write would just be variations on a theme. Watch out for overly elevated language, repeated words, and double-check each scene's choreography. Because it’s very late here in Big D and I’ve already spent over three hours on this critique, I’ll spare both of us any more pain. However, if you have any questions about any of this or, for some masochistic reason want me to work over another section, just send me a PM.
Thanks for your suggestions, especially since there is a general consensus that there are opportunities to improve the first several paragraphs. Hell, we write to please our fans on Lit.

LOL, no pain, no gain, RF. In fact, it’s because of thoughtful commentaries, like yours and others here, that I lurked about on the SDC (and I’m now thinking I would like to become more active). The commentaries are generally done to be helpful (and the price is right, too!)—always instructive and useful.

You’ve got a lot of promise, Manx, I hope you stick to your writing. You might also think about tossing out some critiques of your own. I’m convinced the critique givers get more out of the process than do those who receive the suckers.
Thanks. I like writing, as a semi-serious hobby, especially in this genre. And as long at it provides a net positive to dispense a little pleasure for our readers, I’ll continue. I will consider critiquing also. But there’s nothing like first going through a test-of-fire-initiation to see what it’s like from this side.

Thanks, again, RF.
As usual, you’re very helpful and your comments were useful and informative.

Regards,
Manxy

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Jesus! Do you really talk like that?

Sorry, but i couldn't get past page one. The language was just too difficult and uncomfortable. I felt that either the narrator was showing off, or he was some sort of academic bozo.

Just me though.

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Jesus! Do you really talk like that?

Sorry, but i couldn't get past page one. The language was just too difficult and uncomfortable. I felt that either the narrator was showing off, or he was some sort of academic bozo.

Just me though.

---dr.M.

_____


Sorry you couldn't make it past page one, "Dr."

I concede the 1st several paragraphs are a bit overdone. Please don't let that deter you (the reading will get easier). If you have the time, I would appreciate your comments, overall.

I will be posting comments back to RF's post regarding overall readability in a bit, which is significantly different from the sample.

 

[wildsweetone]

ProofreadManx, please forgive me.

this is simply my opinion. i have read page one, i am a slow reader and i struggled because i couldn't get past every noun having an adjective or two. it was just too much for me. i thought it was just me, but perhaps dr. mabeuse feels the same.

i'm sorry.

if i was to edit, i would suggest you limit giving colour to all nouns except perhaps one per paragraph... even that might be too much.

i will try to read the rest of your story, time is running out for me here, but if i get the chance i'll come back and comment further at a later point. failing that, i'll hit the feedback button at the end of your story.

generally, i struggle to read more than one web page at a sitting, so don't expect anything for some time.

i am glad that you put your story up for discussion though.

 

[Guest]

ProofreadManx, please forgive me.

this is simply my opinion. i have read page one, i am a slow reader and i struggled because i couldn't get past every noun having an adjective or two. it was just too much for me. i thought it was just me, but perhaps dr. mabeuse feels the same.

i'm sorry.

if i was to edit, i would suggest you limit giving colour to all nouns except perhaps one per paragraph... even that might be too much.

i will try to read the rest of your story, time is running out for me here, but if i get the chance i'll come back and comment further at a later point. failing that, i'll hit the feedback button at the end of your story.

generally, i struggle to read more than one web page at a sitting, so don't expect anything for some time.

i am glad that you put your story up for discussion though.

____

WSO, nothing to forgive. Forgive me! Same comments as to "Doc" above.

I look forward to your comments, here or in an e-mail feedback.

Thanks in advance.

Manxy.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

When i post these reviews, I post my opinion before I read the other reviews. After reading all the praise, I had to go back and give the story another shot. And it did get better. It got much better. Once you forgo the verbal pyrotechnics, you can certainly write and it flows well. I personally don't know anyone who would ever use the word "hiatus" in a casual conversation, but for the most part I could accept the dialog, especially coming from him, since I already know he thinks in these kind of words.

WSO poisoned my mind though. After she pointed out the adjective-noun one-two, the first sex scene was impossible to read without noticing the pattern. This is a shame, because you do have tremendous control of language and some--perhaps most-- of your images are just perfect. I have seldom if ever seen such a fresh and novel description of love-making, extremely juicy and detailed and descriptive. But that damned adjective-noun pattern just drove me to distraction.

Also, there is a point where you've just got to give us a break and let us breath a little. The prose is so dense and unrelenting, that I really longed for a change in tone, some simple action that was not described to death.

I made it this time almost to the end of page two before I was worn out. In all fairness, like WSO I do not like reading off a screen and I tire and give up easily. But I think even if this were hard copy it would be thick going. I really need a few nice, airy, relaxing sentences where I can rest before the next onslught of language. I'll give it another go tomorrow.

The conversation about love goes on far too long, in my opinion. It is very well done, but I started getting very impatient for the next event to occur. Writing is about excluding as much as it is about including, and I did get tired of hearing these people go on.

But I still must say how impressed I was by your imagery and powers of description, the ease of your dialog, and other elements of craft. As for characterization, it's pretty hard to avoid characterization when you write in first person, at least as regards the narrator. He still seems to me to be very taken with the sound of his own voice and overly cerebral, but maybe that's what you intended. His secretary is, of course, a sex object (at least up to the point I read) and fills that role nicely. Nothing that would set her apart from any other female though and nothing that makes me especially interested in her. You mention her cup size, which I always personally dislike.l

The main thing I think is to trim some of the verbiage. You can't see the story for the words.

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Responses back to dr_mabeuse.

(See edited post below for dr_mabeuse...)

 

[johonnaN]

ProofreadManx

Thanks for offering your story up for review. I haven't read it all yet, but I will.

The other reviews have given me pause, not about your story, but it's length. As my current story seems to be running on forever. So i may use this as a sort of guide for myself, if you don't mind.

Until i post something, I wouldn't feel right or probably competent on commenting on some else's baby.


JN

 

[Guest]

dear god give me strength. i just spent time here and the darn thing unregistered me and dumped my entire pm.

wildsweetone

 

[wildsweetone]

WSO poisoned my mind though. After she pointed out the adjective-noun one-two, the first sex scene was impossible to read without noticing the pattern. This is a shame, because you do have tremendous control of language and some--perhaps most-- of your images are just perfect. I have seldom if ever seen such a fresh and novel description of love-making, extremely juicy and detailed and descriptive. But that damned adjective-noun pattern just drove me to distraction.
Incredibly interesting--let me look at that, too. 'Poisoned' is probably a little hard on WSO, but there has to be merit if you and she see it.

Don't worry about me poisoning the good dr's mind dear, i'm sure he could take a pill for it

okay now for my second attempt...

i've decided to copy a paragraph to see if i can explain my thoughts to you Manxy take it all with a grain of salt (or a bucket ) and remember, they're just my thoughts and are fairly meaningless if you want them to be. oh and my knowledge on the mechanics of writing is self learnt basically, so please ignore whatever you like, i take no offense

you:
Thursday's temperatures wavered between cool and warm, but I decidedly opened my window to coax the outside in to cleanse the stuffy air. Restless and frustrated, I rubbed the permanent groove at the base of my ring finger—a remnant scar caused by an absent, seven-year wedding band. My divorce anniversary, tomorrow, nagged at me with prickly irritability; for this thirty-one year old male, it was getting too old to be single again. Since the renewing season and I parted company last year, April's showers were not on my list of favorite weather. That changed today. Lingering near the window a while longer, a cool breeze fingered my warm face—the long winter was over—I welcomed spring back and made amends.

my try:
Thursday's temperatures wavered between cool and warm but i opened my window to coax the outside, cleansing the stuffy air. Restless and frustrated, i rubbed the groove at the base of my ring finger - a remnant scar caused by an absent, seven-year wedding band.

Tomorrow's anniversary nagged at me with prickly irritability. 31 was too old to be single. Since the renewing season and I separated last year, April's showers had not been on my list of favoured weather patterns.

That changed today. Lingering near the window, a cool breeze fingered my face - the long winter was over. I welcomed spring and made amends.


1. Thursday's temperatures wavered between cool and warm, but I decidedly opened my window to coax the outside in to cleanse the stuffy air.

i deleted 'decidedly' because the mere fact that you opened the window was a decided decision.

2. Restless and frustrated, I rubbed the permanent groove at the base of my ring finger—a remnant scar caused by an absent, seven-year wedding band.

i deleted 'permanent' because all married people know that wedding bands leave a permanent mark... most unmarried guys know this too. however the other reasons for take it out are that you say it twice... i.e. 'a remnant scar'. i chose to delete 'permanent' rather than 'remnant scar' because the latter shows me your style, and i love your writing style and don't wish for you to lose it.

3. My divorce anniversary, tomorrow, nagged at me with prickly irritability; for this thirty-one year old male, it was getting too old to be single again.

i found this a little wordy. i think the way i did it still keeps your style - it shows in the 'prickly irritability' i liked that.

3. for this thirty-one year old male, it was getting too old to be single again.

i simplified this.

4. Since the renewing season and I parted company last year, April's showers were not on my list of favorite weather.

i reworded this a little also. 'don't use two words when one will suffice' - i read that somewhere.

5. That changed today. Lingering near the window a while longer, a cool breeze fingered my warm face—the long winter was over—I welcomed spring back and made amends.

Lingering means 'a while longer', so i deleted the latter because i like the word 'lingering'. also with regards to 'warm'... it reads just as well without having that word included, and we all know that a face is warm. 'back' is an extra word that is not necessary.

***
i was aiming to make the paragraph flow easier... you may notice that i've broken it up into smaller bites. partly that is for my own ease of reading, and partly because - new thought/idea/action = new paragraph.

i hope this makes some sense to you. please ask if you'd like me to explain more.

nb: your word count is 122 and mine is 104.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Mabeuse Again

I tried, Manxy, I really tried. I just couldn't stand these people anymore.

Do I really have to know what kind of dressing she had on her salad? Is there some significance to his selection of wine? I don't know anything about wine but I figure you wouldn't meant it unless it means something to the story. Color? Detail? I'm drowning in detail. I don't know what's important and what's not.
I only know that they wouldn't shut up about this love thing and it wouldn't go anywhere. Even the Maitre d' gets involved and then he won't shut up about it.
Am I going on too long about this? Am I belaboring the point? Saying the same thing over and over? Good. That's how I felt when I was reading the story.

The thing is, you write so damned well that it's easy to get the illusion that all this motion is actually progress and that we're getting somewhere. I realize that you have to allow time for things to develop, but you could pull back and start telling us what happened in more general terms. I know the dictum is "show don't tell" but you're obviously in no danger of falling into this beginner's trap so you can afford to pull back and tell us what happened in broader terms.

Detail along with emotional tone is what gives a story depth, and a good story has many levels. The important parts are highly detailed and emotionally charged, the less important parts are fuzzier and emotionally 'flatter'. That's how the reader knows what's important. This story is very high but very flat, at least to me, and I couldn't even successfully skim this story because everywhere I stopped it looked like important things were happening.

I just think maybe you overwrote. You have talent coming out of your earholes, that's for sure, verging on the poetic when it comes to imagery and, yes, detail. And as I think is probablytrue for most of us, your greatest strength is also your great weakness, Knowing when to focus in for a tight shot and when to pull back and get the big picture are as important in fiction as in film making, but I'm sure you can do it

I think you are this fucking far from being a real giant, and not just in porn. Whether you can make in 'real' fiction depends on whether you really have something to say or not. Your story here was a little sex piece. What I would really like to see you try is something a little more serious that requires some stretching of your abilities. Something serious about people and sex. I think you have the subtlety and the tools to pull this off. I don't think anyone knows yet whether you have the insight. But we're still waiting for someone to claim this literary turf, the province of serious sex writing, and I don't see why you couldn't be the one.

Keep at it.

---dr.M.

 

[the_bragis]

Hello Doc,

You know it always intrigues me how people react to different stories in here. As a female especially, I am sure I enjoy different aspects of writing to the other half of the readers.

I only know that they wouldn't shut up about this love thing and it wouldn't go anywhere. Even the Maitre d' gets involved and then he won't shut up about it. ~ Dr Mabeuse

You see, I kind of like that scene in the restaurant. It could have read as simply as - Eric had been stringing Liz along for ages, everyone knew about it, even the Maitre d' at their favourite restaurant. I happen to preferred the longer version.

Ok, the type of dressing? Fair enough, that really was an extra, and not just on the salad. But I kind of enjoyed the pulling and pushing that happened between them. I mean wasn't that basically what the story was about, if you cut out the sex?

'This love thing...' Oh Doc, please, isn't love what makes the world go around?

Have a great day,

Alex.

 

[Guest]

My responses to Dr. M...

I tried, Manxy, I really tried. I just couldn't stand these people anymore.
.
.
.
---dr.M.

______

Thanks for the comments, Dr. M.

Certainly, no apologies are necessary from you.

So there is someone here that doesn't particularly care for my detail, the story length, and my wordiness, and my sense of style. There are people out there that aren't like me!

So, how do I (how would YOU) respond to Doc's comments? If you were in my shoes, for the moment, were some of you offended? Think for a second, then read...



For me, Doc's comments were like a splash of refreshingly cool water on a morning face--a wake-me-upper! I'm in search of honest commentary, hoping it would be here on the SDC. And it must come from a reasonable cross-section of the population on Lit for it to be meaningful to me. As a silent lurker around these parts, I've seen you in action, Doc; your critique serves as important feedback that I HAVE to acknowledge, respectfully.

The reason this 5-Lit-pager is here is my toe-test of the waters (let it be known). I could have submitted one of my other two stories--but that would have been a little too easy for me. THIS story was THE challenge, and it apparently was a challenge for some readers, too. What I learned from this exercise is those challenges are incompatible, aren't they? Just because some the writing was difficult, the poor reader shouldn't have to suffer through those shortcomings.

Were Doc's overall comments concerns of mine? You're damned right, they were, and he cut right through and gave it to me as HE saw it--most gratifying. I expected nothing less from Doc (I'm glad I half-nelsoned him back to spill it--I really needed to hear this).

So a lot of my anticipation that went into displaying this 'work', and receiving critique is FINALLY evaporating, aided by those that took their time to read this 'product' of mine. This is not only fucking delicious, it is cathartic, it is satisfying--it's closure.

I have a well-paying R/L job and do this writing thing as a serious hobby, a lark. I enjoy it, but I don't aspire to write professionally, which could be viewed by some of you as wasting potential talent. But I AM out exploring my potential, for now, and to test, and to push limits, and to extend.

And I'm motivated to continue. I will keep at it, Doc, 'cause I like it and there are some of those that that get a kick out of it too. I have a smaller project in the works, and hope to post in January.

Thanks, again.
Manxy

 

[Guest]

Hello Doc,
.
.
.

'This love thing...' Oh Doc, please, isn't love what makes the world go around?

Have a great day,

Alex.

_____

Alex, will you have my baby?