Proof

theGM26

Experienced
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Jul 8, 2013
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Disclaimers: Sharing pics should be done only when someone is ready and I agree with that with that said lets get on with the discussion.

I bring stuff up when I find something interesting and most of the time its taken out of context and people do not read all I say. I do it anyhow for the few of you that do read it all.

I've been a dom for about three and half years so far and while that is minuscule compared to others on here there is one thing that has remained the same through those three years.

The need for proof.

I guess part of my problem is that I'm naturally distrusting and slightly paranoid. I want to know someone is actually doing as I wish; I think most of us can understand that want.

With that said I've encounter several women over the years that are reluctant to provide some kind of validation. I can understand that as I said above trust should be gained.

What I cant understand is the immovable will some of them have that its a horrible idea to provide me with some kind of proof.

Doesn't trust work both ways? If you need to trust me, do not I need to be able to trust you too?

In my mind having a relationship without some kind of proof is along the lines of what role-play would be. The woman on the other side of the chat/email could be just as likely be a guy stroking his cock.

The argument most people give is that the internet isn't safe. Which is generally correct.

You could also argue that there are so many people using the internet everyday that if one of your friends happen to fall upon a pic of you on the internet where is the proof that its you (unless you confirm it somehow)? Especially if the pic does not include one's face.

Just like there are celebrity look a likes there are look a likes for everyone. Yes everyone is unique in some way, but you also have to take into account that that friend probably has not seem them naked before so do not know what they look like naked. Lets face it someone wearing clothing and someone naked are generally two different things.

I could provide statistics on the number of people using the internet everyday and the number of pics uploaded everyday, but I'll just move on.

The second argument to bring up is that is not it a bit rude to assume someone is going to screw you? Why do people always assume the worst of the human race? It gets tiring. I guess this one is not quite strong, but it merits bringing up anyhow.

The thing that still needs to be discussed is the types of proof I'm talking about. Proof comes in many forms for me. It is not always pics/cam/voice calls that require one to be naked. Hell there are times where a pic of a shirt or pic of a dildo would work for me or even showing up at the right time is proof for me sometimes.

I'm not sure where I was going with this. Probably was just looking to vent, but I thought a few of my comments were worthy of being spoken. I guess my point is be careful but be less careful. Did I make any sense at all or am I just going to be called an idiot like usual? lol Thanks for reading this far if you did.
 
Hm... It turns out that trust is kind of hard to give to someone over the internet when people in the real world are pretty fucked up. With sites offering 'Revenge Porn' women are finding that even the pictures they shared intimately with real life boyfriends are being shared in a dubious way.

Trust has to be earned.

Pictures can be life ruining as many are finding out. If it's difficult for you get proof on the internet than perhaps joining the real world would be better for you.
 
I'm not a lawyer, but I think you've confused the concepts of "proof" and "permanent record".

Sending you proof (in the form of pictures) would be one level of risk for the sender, but another is what you do with them, where they're stored. And I think we all know now that even big companies with 100s of IT people can't keep people's personal information secure anymore. The NSA, Google, and any of a half dozen tech giants are collecting these items and storing them also, even before you get them in your inbox, or on your phone, they're sitting on a server somewhere, for some amount of time.

"Losing" them may also incur a liability for you as well. There are laws on the books that require companies to notify their customers if a data breach of their personal information has occurred. Your activities may already be covered under those sorts of laws, I don't know, as you do provide a sort of service to a sort of client, and you've negotiated how you're going to be "compensated".

Doing something in real life and seeing something first hand is proof, but there's no permanent record...and that's where I think you've departed from the concept of "proof" and moved on to something else without realizing it. What you're asking for, digital images, a permanent record that can last for centuries, and because of that is something else entirely. It also has aspects of permanent title transfer as well...you own the images, and the person giving them to you has no legal claim...maybe. Sort of like transfer of real property. The only difference here, is that no one is talking about it in those terms...even though that's what it really is...and you're assuming their personal property they transfer to you has no real monetary value.

Maybe it isn't proof you need. Maybe you have some feelings of insecurity that you need to deal with?
 
Disclaimers: Sharing pics should be done only when someone is ready and I agree with that with that said lets get on with the discussion.

I bring stuff up when I find something interesting and most of the time its taken out of context and people do not read all I say. I do it anyhow for the few of you that do read it all.

I've been a dom for about three and half years so far and while that is minuscule compared to others on here there is one thing that has remained the same through those three years.

The need for proof.

I guess part of my problem is that I'm naturally distrusting and slightly paranoid. I want to know someone is actually doing as I wish; I think most of us can understand that want.

With that said I've encounter several women over the years that are reluctant to provide some kind of validation. I can understand that as I said above trust should be gained.

What I cant understand is the immovable will some of them have that its a horrible idea to provide me with some kind of proof.

Doesn't trust work both ways? If you need to trust me, do not I need to be able to trust you too?

In my mind having a relationship without some kind of proof is along the lines of what role-play would be. The woman on the other side of the chat/email could be just as likely be a guy stroking his cock.

The argument most people give is that the internet isn't safe. Which is generally correct.

You could also argue that there are so many people using the internet everyday that if one of your friends happen to fall upon a pic of you on the internet where is the proof that its you (unless you confirm it somehow)? Especially if the pic does not include one's face.

Just like there are celebrity look a likes there are look a likes for everyone. Yes everyone is unique in some way, but you also have to take into account that that friend probably has not seem them naked before so do not know what they look like naked. Lets face it someone wearing clothing and someone naked are generally two different things.

I could provide statistics on the number of people using the internet everyday and the number of pics uploaded everyday, but I'll just move on.

The second argument to bring up is that is not it a bit rude to assume someone is going to screw you? Why do people always assume the worst of the human race? It gets tiring. I guess this one is not quite strong, but it merits bringing up anyhow.

The thing that still needs to be discussed is the types of proof I'm talking about. Proof comes in many forms for me. It is not always pics/cam/voice calls that require one to be naked. Hell there are times where a pic of a shirt or pic of a dildo would work for me or even showing up at the right time is proof for me sometimes.

I'm not sure where I was going with this. Probably was just looking to vent, but I thought a few of my comments were worthy of being spoken. I guess my point is be careful but be less careful. Did I make any sense at all or am I just going to be called an idiot like usual? lol Thanks for reading this far if you did.
Sorry, but I consider this nothing but a rant. You are preaching to the choir in some respects, because well meaning men do have to get past the men who are scheming lowlifes. I've had to put up with this part of our gender for years and years.

I'm not talking about online, I'm talking about meeting people in online dating sites, and being considered just another one of those jerks that repeatedly flood the email accounts of the women with fake profiles, fake proposals with near super human qualities. Then they send these same women hate mail, when they don't respond to these proposals, calling them every name in the book, starting with "you're not a true submissive, because you don't submit to me".

And many of these "hits" are sent en mass, hoping that the shotgun approach will work better than sending one email at a time. They're not picky about who responds to their spiel, just that SOMEBODY will. These are the losers, the wannabees, the fakers and the jerks who aren't true to the life style at all. They are just looking for a woman to dominate and control and often abuse.

So, can I really expect these women to see me in a different light, when they get treated this way? I wish I could, but I gave up on trying. Keep in mind, I was hoping for a real life connection, but, because even that started with an on line negotiation, I had to show I was different...to stand out as a real and trusting guy, in a group of fucking assholes.

You are attempting to connect with on line relationships. While I've never wanted such a thing, I know there are some who enjoy it, just the same. But, with no desire to ever meet face to face, both parties can be anything or anybody they want. Who is going to know they are lying? I could be a well endowed woman. How could you prove I'm not?

I could play the role of a dominating female looking for a submissive male. I could demand financial worship from an unsuspecting submissive male and probably get it. I could use the money, too. And by setting up a method for financial payments, it would be very difficult for 99% of the human population to connect me with this account. I could even make it more difficult by changing accounts from time to time, just to keep my secret identity secure.

And requesting any form of proof from someone leaves a trail to that person, be it a phone number, an email address or whatever. And requesting pictures, even those that won't show a face, is more and more becoming a way to target someone. People are encouraged to not post pictures on sites like Facebook and others, but they do, just the same. Someone good at Photoshop can take the head off of one body and add it to a body.

Once that is done, even though the picture is fake, it can cause big problems for the person who's face is in the picture. And if it's found out that they have been in an on line relationship with someone, opinions tend to sway rather quickly that the photo could be real. How can someone deny this sort of thing? Posing in the buff and showing the body is fake? Say the online dom is really a jilted ex boyfriend looking for revenge. Because he has enough incriminating information about her from their real life relationship, he could make something circumstantial seem very possible.

So, rant all you want. While I understand your point, I don't think you're going to get many people to feel for you. You might be a very trusting guy, and offer someone a satisfying time with an on line relationship, but you could also be one of those abusive jerks. Taking your word for it that you are legit just isn't going to be enough. You talk about proof? That door swings both ways.
 
If she's reluctant she just doesn't trust you yet, completely and implicitly. You don't get that trust by whining "you don't trust me" if anything every whine sets you back a year in trust.

You can A) work on that by being consistent and for a longer time, or B) get bored and start all over with someone else.

You get "proof" pics when you've earned them, and that's that. Every person is going to have their own thresholds. Play around with exhibitionists if you're in a hurry. Some people honestly don't care and show off and live life like they "have no mother to protect."
 
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The second argument to bring up is that is not it a bit rude to assume someone is going to screw you? Why do people always assume the worst of the human race? It gets tiring.
Well, probably for the same reason you suspect there might be a wanking man on the other end of chat/email. That suspicion might be percieved as rude too.

Do you ever meet these people? If so, meeting in person early on could be a solution.
Otherwise I guess you are going to have to be clear about expecting pictures. You have the same right to set limits as anyone else.
 
DVS is right in that it's a rant, but some of you didn't quite understand. Most of you completely missed me saying that it should only be done when one is ready. I'm talking more in general rather than one girl. I'm also referring to the girls that are completely against it for no real reason, or won't give me a reason. I understand past bad experiences, but communication is preached here constantly. I like to at least know why they refuse.

Some of you also missed that I said even a pic of a shirt would work. Besides the electronic signature that's not incrementing is it?

Edit: sorry for any errors typing on my phone.
 
You're ready they're not. Continue ranting all you want, but the effect is what I said. NOBODY is going to feel MORE comfortable letting you in when you ask them point blank why they're not. "No real reason" or "no reason they want to tell you" is called "tough shit" - it could be anything or nothing and there's nothing you can do about it so move on, it's them it's not you, there's better uses for your time. This applies to any kind of dating doesn't it? Your chances of "getting laid" go up exponentially when you spend more time trying to do that than dissecting why THAT girl doesn't want to get it on.

If they're not willing to send you a picture of a shirt, their needs out of this online interaction are different from yours, more limited in scope, and that's how it is. Maybe it's a dude you're talking to, and maybe it's a woman who's encouraged to be "nice" and would never out and out tell you "I get off thinking about doing these assignments, but when I orgasm, I'm kind of done with the fantasy and I have work to do here..."

I'd assume that might be the case a lot of the time, especially if you're not in a trying to meet up someday kind of thing.

God, sometimes I feel like I'd make a great PUA coach, worrisome as that is.
 
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I'm one of those girls who is almost completely against it (I did something of the sort once and I felt guilty and stupid right away). These past few months alone we had in my country many high-profile cases of young girls who killed themselves because of photos and videos that ended up online.

And it's not just because of the images itself. It's because from the moment something like that hits the internet, they were judged, blamed, labeled and denigrated by everyone, including family. So what if someone trusts you? Even if they trust you with their life, the price of being wrong could literally be their life. It's a huge leap of faith.

As for not wanting to give you a reason, it's like DVS said. Some weeks I get so many idiots in my inbox on Fetlife, I already click on messages rolling my eyes and answer them on autopilot. I guarantee you there is a real reason why someone won't send you a picture. My whole generation was raised on 'there are pervs online who will rape you' warnings. If I meet someone online who isn't very keen on investing time until my walls are down, I suspect of them even more so than you do when someone doesn't send you a picture.
 
You're ready they're not. Continue ranting all you want, but the effect is what I said. NOBODY is going to feel MORE comfortable letting you in when you ask them point blank why they're not. "No real reason" or "no reason they want to tell you" is called "tough shit" - it could be anything or nothing and there's nothing you can do about it so move on, it's them it's not you, there's better uses for your time. This applies to any kind of dating doesn't it? Your chances of "getting laid" go up exponentially when you spend more time trying to do that than dissecting why THAT girl doesn't want to get it on.

If they're not willing to send you a picture of a shirt, their needs out of this online interaction are different from yours, more limited in scope, and that's how it is. Maybe it's a dude you're talking to, and maybe it's a woman who's encouraged to be "nice" and would never out and out tell you "I get off thinking about doing these assignments, but when I orgasm, I'm kind of done with the fantasy and I have work to do here..."

I'd assume that might be the case a lot of the time, especially if you're not in a trying to meet up someday kind of thing.

God, sometimes I feel like I'd make a great PUA coach, worrisome as that is.

You still didn't read exactly what I said.... It seems you assume I want this right away when I'm trying to say I'm willing to wait but how does one get past a girl that won't even when they ' trust' me/someone. Hell I had a girl say even if I was her 'one ' I wouldn't get pics.
 
You still didn't read exactly what I said.... It seems you assume I want this right away when I'm trying to say I'm willing to wait but how does one get past a girl that won't even when they ' trust' me/someone. Hell I had a girl say even if I was her 'one ' I wouldn't get pics.


You don't get past it. Some of us just don't send pics to people we haven't met. Period. On many occasions I've been offered pics and I always made it clear up front that there would be no reciprocation. Never stopped them from sending them, but because I'm pretty rigid about not sending pics, I always felt more comfortable being clear up front.
 
It kind of doesn't matter what a woman's reason is, you can bet there is one.

It has nothing to do with you, or your mutual trust level. It's not personal.

It is a need for self-preservation that, rightly or wrongly (I say in advance of your protestations), has been drilled into her head for a lifetime.

She might not want to discuss it because she figures you'll denigrate it as being trivial and try to override her -- women get called "cowards" when they aren't being called "sluts."
 
You still didn't read exactly what I said.... It seems you assume I want this right away when I'm trying to say I'm willing to wait but how does one get past a girl that won't even when they ' trust' me/someone. Hell I had a girl say even if I was her 'one ' I wouldn't get pics.

No I didn't assume that. You can't "get past" that, you can't do anything about it. If it sounds nutty to you, maybe 2 and 2 = 4 and it is. If it sounds evasive to you maybe 2 and 2 = 4 and ...it is! Nutty and paranoid are her prerogative to have and your prerogative to take or leave and no more. That's true anytime someone wants access to another person in any way.

What she said tells you that she's operating on an internal fairy tale level - that even if you are her "one" there is no chance of reality ever ever ever intruding into the game. You don't like that, she's not the girl to play with.

I think there IS a point of paranoia versus preservation. But I've never been "convinced" to go face to face with anyone - the second he starts "convincing" it's over.
 
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Disclaimers: Sharing pics should be done only when someone is ready and I agree with that with that said lets get on with the discussion. -TheGM26

What happens if she's never 'ready'?

You agree that someone should only do it when they want to, but you're angry that they never get to that point.

No matter what you're asking for in the picture, maybe it's just an object or a single body part with no chance of anyone figuring out who the body part belongs to. Either way, if they said no pictures and you agreed to continue playing with them, then you agreed to no pictures.

If you start without talking about what will and will not happen then it's on you. One of your ground rules should have been to include pictures. If they can't do that then move on to the next one until someone meets your expectations.

Furthermore, there doesn't NEED to be a reason behind not sending pictures. If someone doesn't want to they don't have to, that's the fucking beauty of the internet. Lots of social interaction with limitations. I like the limitations afforded me. Here I can talk about all my darkest fantasies and no one here knows who I am. I'll keep it that way, too. I assume most people interacting on the internet think the same way.
 
No one should send pics they don't want the whole world to see. Shit happens.
 
OK, I'll have a crack at this, as a girl who did some stuff on camera at 19 and has regretted it with terrifying intensity ever since. I still panic about it at 3am some nights. I'm pretty much just reiterating other people, though, and also this quoting business confuses me; I apologise for that.

What I cant understand is the immovable will some of them have that its a horrible idea to provide me with some kind of proof.
Doesn't trust work both ways? If you need to trust me, do not I need to be able to trust you too?

You have so much less to lose in this scenario, though. As everybody has pointed out, pictures are forever, and pictures with any sort of sexual content can destroy your life. Even if you are 100% trustworthy, what if a friend uses your computer one time and copies the picture for their own use? Or if your computer gets stolen? Or hacked? Or you put the pictures up on a site for your own personal perusal and it turns out that site's not as secure as you'd hoped? There are SO MANY WAYS that pictures can get out into the wider internet, even assuming you're squeaky clean (and very few females will assume this of a man).

Whereas if they don't send you pictures, all you've lost is certainty. That may well be a horrible, discomforting thing that taints your relationship with this woman, I understand that. But in that case, find somebody else! Somebody who will give you pictures! It's a case of relationship incompatibility after all; she's got a hard limit, but you need that hard limit in your relationship.

I'm pretty new to all this and I don't operate within a D/s framework so maybe someone could clarify this, but surely hard limits do not exist to be changed? And even if they do, surely that decision must come from a mind change of the sub, not from coercion from the Dom?

You could also argue that there are so many people using the internet everyday that if one of your friends happen to fall upon a pic of you on the internet where is the proof that its you (unless you confirm it somehow)? Especially if the pic does not include one's face. Just like there are celebrity look a likes there are look a likes for everyone. Yes everyone is unique in some way, but you also have to take into account that that friend probably has not seem them naked before so do not know what they look like naked. Lets face it someone wearing clothing and someone naked are generally two different things.

This is a really fucking stupid argument. What if it's your current partner? Or ex-partner? Or gym partner? Fellow sports player? Regular gynecologist, idek. Or parent! There are most likely to be many people in the world who DO know what you look like naked. And that's not even touching upon the whole video aspect where your voice can give you away to literally anybody who knows you.

The second argument to bring up is that is not it a bit rude to assume someone is going to screw you? Why do people always assume the worst of the human race? It gets tiring. I guess this one is not quite strong, but it merits bringing up anyhow."

It's not rude. Depending on where you are in a relationship with somebody, it's either sensible or a bit paranoid. It shows a lack of trust, and in my opinion, a healthy dose of self-preservation. People assume the worst of the human race because that way they're protected from the worst happening to them.

Proof comes in many forms for me. It is not always pics/cam/voice calls that require one to be naked. Hell there are times where a pic of a shirt or pic of a dildo would work for me or even showing up at the right time is proof for me sometimes.

Personally, just from me, I wouldn't do that because I would see it as a 'gateway' picture. Once I'd sent you one picture, you would want me to send more, and maybe I would be more likely to do it. And that IS flat-out paranoid, but I make no apologies because I would rather protect myself.

I guess my point is be careful but be less careful.

No. That's not your decision to make. Or even consider. It's theirs.

I'm talking more in general rather than one girl. I'm also referring to the girls that are completely against it for no real reason, or won't give me a reason. I understand past bad experiences, but communication is preached here constantly. I like to at least know why they refuse.

In general: WOMEN WILL NOT SEND YOU PICTURES BECAUSE THEY DO NOT THINK IT IS WORTH THE RISK. Isso simple.

Not giving you a reason: I'm presuming that to have got this reaction you've asked people, essentially, "why won't you send me pics?" Now, personally, my reason for not responding to this would be because I would be afraid that you wouldn't accept my reason. You would throw more bullshit at me like the above about fucking "lookalikes", and you would take my opening this dialogue as a chance to try and persuade me that I was paranoid and silly and wrong. And worst-case scenario maybe I would be convinced and feel horrible and send you a face picture - and then yay, another 3 years of panic for me! Disclaimer: I'm not saying that is what I think you would do, I'm saying that would be why I would never answer that question.

You still didn't read exactly what I said.... It seems you assume I want this right away when I'm trying to say I'm willing to wait but how does one get past a girl that won't even when they ' trust' me/someone.

YOU DON'T. There is no 'getting past' this woman, and wtf sort of phrase is that anyway?? If she won't, even when she says she trusts you, then you need to do what I said above and move the fuck on because you two are incompatible.

Disclaimers: Sharing pics should be done only when someone is ready and I agree with that with that said lets get on with the discussion.

I bolded the important bit. You don't get to decide when someone is ready to share pics with you. You don't get to try and change it, no matter how frustrating it may be for you.
 
Just an FYI, there are apps available where a picture can be sent and it will last for 30 seconds or so when opened on the recipients phone. Not perfect, but a solution of sorts.
 
I give up.... I think you all misunderstood me and that's fine...

I think I understand your point - being told that you are being obeyed is not sufficient for you, and you want visual proof of some sort in order to get full satisfaction from the dynamic you're working within.

I have nothing to add with regard to how to win someone's trust, or the dangers inherent in sharing photos with a stranger. But I wondered whether you opt to share photos of yourself first, and whether that might help to convince the other party that you are prepared to take the same risk yourself?
 
Just an FYI, there are apps available where a picture can be sent and it will last for 30 seconds or so when opened on the recipients phone. Not perfect, but a solution of sorts.

You can always take a print of the screen.
 
Yes. Not all phones have this capacity but many do.

Yeah. Particularly, I'm not the most tech savvy of my group of friends. Most of my friends, though, use Snapchat a lot and they can take a print on their cell in two seconds.
 
In my mind having a relationship without some kind of proof is along the lines of what role-play would be.

You are role-playing, you are not having a relationship. So it all makes sense.
 
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