Proof of the 'Creator" or not?

[JackLuis]

Wikipedia had a new pix up from the Hubble. The full resolution is amazing!

Interestingly you can see so much more form Hubble. For those who want to write about Space travel, looking at this photo will make you invent FTL or a Warp-drive first and still it is a long way across that Galixey, 3,300 light years!

"Gimmy warp 25 Scotty it's a long way to Paducka."

 

[slyc_willie]

In the 90s, George Smoot was able to get enough time on the Hubble to look for what he called "wrinkles in time," the apparent proof of residual energy shortly after the Big Bang. Following Einstein's explanation of curved spacetime, Smoot figured it didn't matter where you pointed the telescope; it was all a matter of magnification and focus.

The pictures the Hubble made then were impressive and sent ripples through the physics and astrophysics community. Smoot, along with Keay Davidson, published their findings in the book "Wrinkles In Time." It's fascinating stuff.

 

[john-the-author]

That is one lovely picture! Thank you.

 

[amicus]

Not to dissuade anyone from being fascinated by photo's from Hubble or the other orbiting telescopes that specialize in different wavelength observations...as I, myself, have been a space addict since the 1940's and have seen a lot go from science fiction to science...but...(there's always a 'but' with me)

A disappointing huge percentage of the worlds population, even in civilized nations, cannot identify the location of National Entities on earth. Few know anything about Hubble or plans for missions to Io, an icy moon of Jupiter, thought to have a liquid ocean under a very thick ice cover.

I am somewhat torn between the fact that the new administration is cutting NASA's budget and trimming back plans for Aries and Constellation, the machines intended to replace the space shuttle; torn between that and the equally disturbing 'fact' that 'knowledge' such as that provided by the Hubble Observatory and others is interesting, indeed fascinating and yet, in practical terms, useless.

There are practical applications to the operation of space telescopes and unmanned exploration of 'near space', within our solar system, in the form of early warning for earth orbit crossing asteroids and comets and the creation of means and methods to protect the planet.

I know this places me on the, 'duh', side of science for science's sake, for pure knowledge; so be it. I would prefer a commercial venture to exploit the Asteroid belt beyond Mars; a commercial resort orbiting earth and a commercial venture to mine the Moon or begin a colony there and then Mars, with NASA and the entire government apparatus in an advisory capacity if anything, aside from the obvious military interest in space.

I too, have marvelled over the products of the Hubble and the robot, mechanical exploration of the solar system, I find them enjoyable to observe and cogitate, but...again...to what practical purpose?

Amicus

 

[Handley_Page]

If I could be optimistic for a moment?.
With a little luck, the scientific drive to achieve these missions might be used to benefit mankind, as well as making the politicos realise they are but specks of dust in the Creator's eye.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

What a fabulous photo! 3,300 light years is a long ways across and 89 million light years is a long ways away!

 

[Huckleman2000]

Holy crap! did you look at it in full resolution? There's more galaxies all around it in the background too! In the lower left, there's even another dumbbell galaxy that looks just like this one.

 

[trysail]

What a fabulous photo! 3,300 light years is a long ways across and 89 million light years is a long ways away!

Er..., um..., uh..., without intending to be pedantic— it's only 69,000,000 light-years away.

Regardless, the distance is utterly mind-boggling. Let's see what the math is.

Speed of light= 186,282.397 miles per second

× 60 seconds/minute
× 60 minutes/hour
× 24 hours/day
× 365 days/year
____________________
= 5,874,601,671,792 miles in one (1) light-year
× 69,000,000............. light-years to NGC 1300
_____________________
= 387,723,710,338,272,000,000 miles to NGC 1300

( otherwise known as three hundred eight-seven quintillion, seven hundred twenty-three quadrillion, seven hundred ten trillion, three hundred thirty-eight billion, two hundred seventy-two million miles )




ETA: changing the speed of light from 186,000,000 miles per second to 186,282.397 miles per second.

 

[redpaint]

Look at that photo and tell me that we are the only Life on a rock in space out there. We may never meet them, but they have to be out there.

Oh, Thank you for the new background on my computer.

 

[Verdad]

Awe-inspiring photo, thanks.

 

[AngeloMichael]

Not to dissuade anyone from being fascinated by photo's from Hubble or the other orbiting telescopes that specialize in different wavelength observations...as I, myself, have been a space addict since the 1940's and have seen a lot go from science fiction to science...but...(there's always a 'but' with me)

A disappointing huge percentage of the worlds population, even in civilized nations, cannot identify the location of National Entities on earth. Few know anything about Hubble or plans for missions to Io, an icy moon of Jupiter, thought to have a liquid ocean under a very thick ice cover.

I am somewhat torn between the fact that the new administration is cutting NASA's budget and trimming back plans for Aries and Constellation, the machines intended to replace the space shuttle; torn between that and the equally disturbing 'fact' that 'knowledge' such as that provided by the Hubble Observatory and others is interesting, indeed fascinating and yet, in practical terms, useless.

There are practical applications to the operation of space telescopes and unmanned exploration of 'near space', within our solar system, in the form of early warning for earth orbit crossing asteroids and comets and the creation of means and methods to protect the planet.

I know this places me on the, 'duh', side of science for science's sake, for pure knowledge; so be it. I would prefer a commercial venture to exploit the Asteroid belt beyond Mars; a commercial resort orbiting earth and a commercial venture to mine the Moon or begin a colony there and then Mars, with NASA and the entire government apparatus in an advisory capacity if anything, aside from the obvious military interest in space.

I too, have marvelled over the products of the Hubble and the robot, mechanical exploration of the solar system, I find them enjoyable to observe and cogitate, but...again...to what practical purpose?

Amicus

We're on the same page here with this one Amicus. I desire humanity to explore space for commercial purposes as well as scientific. Great waves of human achievement have come much of the time on the heels of great exploration ventures - great waves of human atrocities too, I know, but maybe we can do better on that end. It saddens me the lack of enthusiasm many show towards the space program, I think to continually push the envelope in what we know and what we can do out there can only benefit humanity.

The only thing is, I beilive it's Europa that is the frozen moon of Jupiter that scientists speculate consists of an ocean beneath the ice. Io is the most volcanically active of Jupiter's moons and has a noxious atmosphere of sulfur. Pretty much the "Hell World" of the Solar System.

I think one of the recent achievements of astronomers is their new found methoods of finding extra-solar planets. In the last decade they've discovered dozens of new planets oribiting other stars. I think this is a tremendous feat. We went from the time of ancient greeks where all we knew were that some stars moved from their fixed location in the celestial sphere and called them "travelers" - the greek name is where we get the word "planet" from.
There were only six of these all the way up to the time of Galileo when he used the telescope to look up at the sky and discovered the moons of Jupiter and then the discoveries of Uranus in the 18th century and Neptune in the 19th.

That's 8 planets and some odd moons and that Mickey Mouse rock that is not a planet compared with all the new planets discovered in the last 10 years, I really think it is an amazing and under-observed achievement.

 

[amicus]

AngeloMichael...I didn't confirm your correction from Io to Europa, but I assume you did your homework and I appreciate the correction.

However...detecting Stars with Planets around them, seems to have been a major disappointment to the scientific community. First off, it appears only huge gas giants that are classified as Planets, sweep all the debris from the space around the new star, gobbling up all the smaller, 'earth sized' planets.

Secondly, detecting them at great distance requires some rather astounding computer and telescope skills. From the information I have gathered, astronomers are attempting to detect the slight 'wobble' in many stars that would indicate the gravitational effect of a planet orbiting that star.

So far as the informational available to the public, there have been no earth sized planets, orbiting in an earth like distance from a similar class star, that might be suitable habitats for 'human like' life evolving.

As you might note, I am a bit pessimistic about finding other intelligent life in the Universe. Our SETI program, scanning space programmed to detect any electromagnetic emanation that is not random, has failed to produce even a single signal indicated a species of life capable of generating radio waves.

True, against the back drop of time, we have been looking for just a very short time and even our own ability to generate radio waves is a bare century and a half and really less than that to generate the power required to be detected at long distance.

It is a field of interested that has captured my attention for many years and I still follow each new development with great interest; but the odds of finding evidence of sentient life elsewhere seems to be fading.

regards...

Amicus

 

[manyeyedhydra]

I desire humanity to explore space for commercial purposes as well as scientific.

I don't think that's going to happen for a very long time.

We need a number of technological breakthroughs to make the benefits outweigh enormous costs.

This is against a backdrop of a society that doesn't value science, scientists or intellectual pursuits particularly highly. Popular modern heroes are Sports stars, Film stars and Musicians. If you're intelligent, then bigger rewards are to be found by working in the financial sector.

I'd speculate that we're just turning over the peak and about to descend into a couple of centuries equivalent of dark ages.

After then, maybe...

 

[Verdad]

Commercial exploration doesn't seem to be any closer than it was fifty years ago. I wouldn't be so quick to give up on the scientific, though. What Ami says about supergiants is correct, but then, a few years ago we wouldn't have known that, so who's to tell what else waits to be discovered?

By the way, Angelo is correct about Io and Europa. Io is as hellish and instable environment as they come. It's the closest to Jupiter of the four Galilean moons and subject to its tremendous pull. The volcanic activity all but tears it apart.

 

[amicus]

I went back to the original post: "Proof of the 'Creator" or not?", it seems the thread, as they often do, head off in a direction perhaps different than the threadstarter intended?

The Chinese have plans for a moon voyage and perhaps commercial exploitation the is due to arrive years before the NASA projects, so I have read.

In a thread some time back, I made reference to the discovery of material on the surface of the Moon, that would provide an almost never ending source of energy making it commercially feasible for mining and transportation costs to be absorbed and still offer a profit.

I am not sure of the threadstarter's connection to the magnificence of the Hubble photograph carries any particular weight as there have been so many awe inspiring photo's and discoveries that perhaps can overwhelm one, but hardly posits a Creator?

Amicus

 

[JackLuis]

I went back to the original post: "Proof of the 'Creator" or not?", it seems the thread, as they often do, head off in a direction perhaps different than the threadstarter intended

I am not sure of the threadstarter's connection to the magnificence of the Hubble photograph carries any particular weight as there have been so many awe inspiring photo's and discoveries that perhaps can overwhelm one, but hardly posits a Creator?

Amicus

Actually Ami, I was captured by the full res photo and thought I'd share with the folks here. The Creator was a way to "Hook an audience" but it is interesting to think about the vastness of Creation and wonder what the Creator's intent or purpose was in her Creation.

I was surprised at the draw it had. Glad you liked it!

Photo's like this provide a perspective that makes me realize just how small Earth and our minor solar system is in the grand scheme of things.
Humility, we need to realize the need for.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I think the hydra is far too pessimistic. Heck, Virgin is already building a spaceport in southern New Mexico and NASA is offering rewards for people who can come up with cable strong enough to make a space elevator out of. And to really get your mind blown, go to amazon.com for Lightcraft Flight Handbook LTI-20: Hypersonic Flight Transport for an Era Beyond Oil. This is nearly off-the-shelf technology. All it lacks is a big enough laser.

 

[AngeloMichael]

AngeloMichael...I didn't confirm your correction from Io to Europa, but I assume you did your homework and I appreciate the correction.

However...detecting Stars with Planets around them, seems to have been a major disappointment to the scientific community. First off, it appears only huge gas giants that are classified as Planets, sweep all the debris from the space around the new star, gobbling up all the smaller, 'earth sized' planets.

Secondly, detecting them at great distance requires some rather astounding computer and telescope skills. From the information I have gathered, astronomers are attempting to detect the slight 'wobble' in many stars that would indicate the gravitational effect of a planet orbiting that star.

So far as the informational available to the public, there have been no earth sized planets, orbiting in an earth like distance from a similar class star, that might be suitable habitats for 'human like' life evolving.

As you might note, I am a bit pessimistic about finding other intelligent life in the Universe. Our SETI program, scanning space programmed to detect any electromagnetic emanation that is not random, has failed to produce even a single signal indicated a species of life capable of generating radio waves.

True, against the back drop of time, we have been looking for just a very short time and even our own ability to generate radio waves is a bare century and a half and really less than that to generate the power required to be detected at long distance.

It is a field of interested that has captured my attention for many years and I still follow each new development with great interest; but the odds of finding evidence of sentient life elsewhere seems to be fading.

regards...

Amicus

Actually, the first "Close to Earth size" planet was discovered a few months ago.
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=102964

Close to earth meaning twice as large, and it's too close to its star to have life, but again this is a relatively new method of finding planets and I think the progress has been astounding. I certainly am not disappointed.

I share your pessimism about finding intelligent life, I believe it is quite likely to exist out in the vastness of space...somewhere, but for us to find it, especially in our lifetime is highly doubtful.

However life, whether just tiny microbes or something just a little bit more advanced, I think we have a good chance at.

We could find signs of extinct life on Mars which would be fascinating in itself, but I am really excited about the mission to Europa. Speculatively, there's an entire ocean on that world, and as scientists have discovered on our own planet, life can develop with only water and a heat source.

Jupiter's gravitational pull constantly churning Europa's core keeps the water warm close to the core, who knows what we might find?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Despite the enthusiasts at SETI, I believe there is a large body of astronomical opinion that puts the number of intelligent species per galaxy at one, perhaps two. There are so many unlikely things that have happened to the Earth to make us possible that the odds are very, very long against there being anyone else there to talk to. Given that, I am confident that better instrumentation will show within my lifetime that there is oxygen breathing life on some other planet within our ability to detect.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

I think the hydra is far too pessimistic. Heck, Virgin is already building a spaceport in southern New Mexico and NASA is offering rewards for people who can come up with cable strong enough to make a space elevator out of. And to really get your mind blown, go to amazon.com for Lightcraft Flight Handbook LTI-20: Hypersonic Flight Transport for an Era Beyond Oil. This is nearly off-the-shelf technology. All it lacks is a big enough laser.

I live in hope of being proved wrong

 

[JackLuis]

Another thought. If this galaxy is, what we are seeing is light 69 million years old. Who knows what it is like now, there. Even if we could Warp C, what would we find if we had detect radio waves in nonrandom sequences from a planet in that galaxy?

 

[slyc_willie]

Another thought. If this galaxy is, what we are seeing is light 69 million years old. Who knows what it is like now, there. Even if we could Warp C, what would we find if we had detect radio waves in nonrandom sequences from a planet in that galaxy?

Chances are the galaxy itself wouldn't be much different . . . it just wouldn't be where it had been when its light reached us. Now, if you were talking about a nebula observed five and a half billion light-years away . . . chances are it would no longer be there, and replaced by galaxies.