Pronouns

[Trionyx]

All this discussion about language changing has me wondering about the pace of change. I’m not sure how one would measure it, but if one could, I would suggest the rate of change has accelerated dramatically since the advent of the PC, internet and cell phones. In the past most people received their language input from verbal language supplemented by various printed materials. Now more people are writing, even if it is by simple texts, and don’t have a teacher or an editor correcting their writing. This in turn can lead to a more rapid acceptance of alternative words or grammatical structures.

 

[Bramblethorn]

My impression, based upon admittedly limited evidence, is that those of you from Oz are all calling each other the C word all the time. Has that become a pronoun, too? I have a high tolerance for dirty words, but it's jarring for this American. Talking that way would be received very differently here.

It's situational. There are workplaces where you'd hear it every third word, and others where it'd be just about unthinkable. I have friends who call their (male) partners "good cunt" as a term of endearment but it's not language that would fit in my mouth. Not exactly squeamishness, more that it'd sound fake coming from me.

 

[Rustyoznail]

It's situational. There are workplaces where you'd hear it every third word, and others where it'd be just about unthinkable. I have friends who call their (male) partners "good cunt" as a term of endearment but it's not language that would fit in my mouth. Not exactly squeamishness, more that it'd sound fake coming from me.

True. Interestingly, there haven't been too many construction sites where calling someone a cunt as a term of endearment has been used. However, I've used "You fucking dickhead..." many, many times.

 

[Bramblethorn]

All this discussion about language changing has me wondering about the pace of change. I’m not sure how one would measure it, but if one could, I would suggest the rate of change has accelerated dramatically since the advent of the PC, internet and cell phones. In the past most people received their language input from verbal language supplemented by various printed materials. Now more people are writing, even if it is by simple texts, and don’t have a teacher or an editor correcting their writing. This in turn can lead to a more rapid acceptance of alternative words or grammatical structures.

There's a lot of work being done on measuring linguistic change; I think some of it uses techniques from genetics. Here's a presentation showing some of the concepts.

I think you're right that modern communications technology spawns change through different patterns of communication, and there are other angles to that as well.

Every medium has its own technical limitations. With a hand-written letter you could easily change the size of your writing, draw hearts over the i's, or whatever. Early email was much more restrictive: standard-size characters with no fancy formatting. Text messaging favours brevity because it's a pain typing long messages on a phone and message services often limit message length. A lot of features of textspeak are adaptations to that, e.g. heavy abbreviation and use of emojis to replace "tone" content that might otherwise be lost.

The other complication is that society is changing faster than it used to be, so even if we weren't changing the way we communicate, we'd need to be inventing more words to keep up with the world we live in. Two years ago, if somebody had told me they scored ten rats at the local supermarket, I'd have assumed they had a pet snake or something of the sort; these days it's a rapid antigen test. On the other hand, I don't talk about VCRs as often as I used to.

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

The use of the word they as singular third person pronoun in English predates the word 'boy'. (Fun fact, all children were called girl once opoun a time.)

I live with someone who uses they/them exclusively and it's never been an issue. If it's hard to tell who 'they' refers to in a sentence that's not the fault of the pronouns in the same way that 'he' in gay male erotica is often confusing.

It's a sign not that the writer should be using a different set of pronouns for a character, but instead that the writer should have referred to them by name rather than pronouns.

 

[shakna]

My impression, based upon admittedly limited evidence, is that those of you from Oz are all calling each other the C word all the time. Has that become a pronoun, too? I have a high tolerance for dirty words, but it's jarring for this American. Talking that way would be received very differently here.

Nah, mate.

It's pretty common if you're from the Territory, but only among the locals, with a particular accent, and only in particular circumstances.

If a tourist opened their mouth a called someone that with a friendly tone, they'd either get an eyeroll, or get shut down. Hard. Especially if they happen to be white. (Not to say that it's only the indigenous who regularly use the slang, not at all. But "dumb white boy" is a trope there for a reason, and it ain't one you want to be labelled as.)

But, if you were to use cunt in anger, like I expect happens overseas, the reactions will be pretty similar. You'll quickly find a fist upside your head.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

'he' in gay male erotica is often confusing. It's a sign not that the writer should be using a different set of pronouns for a character, but instead that the writer should have referred to them by name rather than pronouns.

I really feel this pain. I wrote a story where the two male characters went and acquired a couple more male characters. My main conclusion was "if you bastards want to appear in any more stories, you need to start asking for guys' names before you fuck them!"

Cunt is one of those words used rather differently in America vs UK/Australia. While the level of insult varies (among many young UK men and Glaswegians it's a friendly greeting, among middle aged office workers it's likely to be gross misconduct), in the UK and I think Oz when it's an insult, it's an insult like arsehole or bastard only stronger. Usually about a man who has intentionally exhibited cuntish behaviour. Whereas in the USA it seems to be the no.1 misogynistic insult for women?

Regarding pace of language change - flow of info is probably faster now, but with fewer pockets of unknown subcultures which could create their own dialects, because they've been communicating with others. So English public school slang, used to create in-groups and out-groups since being founded, is mostly dead, ditto many rural accents and dialects.

 

[stickygirl]

It's situational. There are workplaces where you'd hear it every third word, and others where it'd be just about unthinkable. I have friends who call their (male) partners "good cunt" as a term of endearment but it's not language that would fit in my mouth. Not exactly squeamishness, more that it'd sound fake coming from me.

I have the same problem with slang credibility and have killed a few conversations stone dead, simply reflecting back the type of slang I'd just heard.

Cunt, like many slang words, loses its sting with repetition. I like to save the word cunt for special occasions

The use of the word they as singular third person pronoun in English predates the word 'boy'. (Fun fact, all children were called girl once upon a time.)

I live with someone who uses they/them exclusively and it's never been an issue. If it's hard to tell who 'they' refers to in a sentence that's not the fault of the pronouns in the same way that 'he' in gay male erotica is often confusing.

It's a sign not that the writer should be using a different set of pronouns for a character, but instead that the writer should have referred to them by name rather than pronouns.

I suspect more than one culture used to refer to young children without any gender marker: most N American tribes had enlightened views on gender roles till the missionaries showed them how bigotry, racism and sexism was done. Younger European children were often dressed in unisex clothing ( think christening gowns ). I suspect it was the advent of retail advertising that pushed an image of mini-women and mini-men onto doting parents.

Sorry, I've wandered away from pronouns yet again.

I do feel sorry for the French with definite articles slapped willy-nilly onto gendered nouns, but we have the Romans to blame for that. For fun I used to describe food in gendered terms, for example lettuce and celery being girl-food but meat pies and Mars bars as boy-food. Bananas and apples are gender neutral, but mangoes and kiwi fruit generally feminine. I've heard guys on construction sites scoff at some lunchboxes "Fuck me mate, that's fucking poof food innit?" The fear of being homo'd amongst men is never far away

 

[Rustyoznail]

Sorry, I've wandered away from pronouns yet again.

I do feel sorry for the French with definite articles slapped willy-nilly onto gendered nouns, but we have the Romans to blame for that. For fun I used to describe food in gendered terms, for example lettuce and celery being girl-food but meat pies and Mars bars as boy-food. Bananas and apples are gender neutral, but mangoes and kiwi fruit generally feminine. I've heard guys on construction sites scoff at some lunchboxes "Fuck me mate, that's fucking poof food innit?" The fear of being homo'd amongst men is never far away

Taking that left turn and heading down the track...

Read "Real men don't eat quiche" (Bruce Feirstein).

But I'll have an egg and bacon pie. With tomato sauce, please.

 

[yowser]

For an extended dive into US cusswords, John McWhorter offers 'Nine nasty words : English in the gutter : then, now, and forever.' 'Cunt' gets a long chapter, but just on US usage, nothing as explained, illuminatingly, here.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

For an extended dive into US cusswords, John McWhorter offers 'Nine nasty words : English in the gutter : then, now, and forever.' 'Cunt' gets a long chapter, but just on US usage, nothing as explained, illuminatingly, here.

Only nine?

I'm still not sure if it's a restricted vocabulary or just a reluctance to play with words, but I don't hear or read much variety in American insults - novels tend to stick to asshole, sonofabitch (has that died since the 80s?), motherfucker, and maybe fucker or fucktard or pussy or cocksucker, to insult men. I never see made-up phrases in American news articles - no "he's got less braincells than a dirty toupee", just very straight, earnest reporting which grates on my British upbringing that requires an undercurrent of humour at all times.

 

[yowser]

Only nine?

I'm still not sure if it's a restricted vocabulary or just a reluctance to play with words, but I don't hear or read much variety in American insults - novels tend to stick to asshole, sonofabitch (has that died since the 80s?), motherfucker, and maybe fucker or fucktard or pussy or cocksucker, to insult men. I never see made-up phrases in American news articles - no "he's got less braincells than a dirty toupee", just very straight, earnest reporting which grates on my British upbringing that requires an undercurrent of humour at all times.

We colonials are nowhere near as adept. My time spent in English pubs was inevitably enhanced by overhearing creative insults that would make the average American's head spin. For the record, the book mentioned self-consciously expands on comedian George Carlin's 'Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television' piece (ca 1972), with two bonus words added. On the other hand, we have academics here (former linguist Geoffrey Nunberg) able to spend an entire book on just one profanity: Ascent of the A-Word.

 

[MelissaBaby]

On the issue of a lack of creative insults among Americans, some of you need to make some Black friends.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

On the issue of a lack of creative insults among Americans, some of you need to make some Black friends.

I admit I know roughly zero black Americans - all my family are whitish and live in fairly rural 99% white areas. Many of my black British friends and neighbours are people I try hard not to swear too much in front of because they don't, being nice churchgoing types, but the others have mouths like any other locals.

Is it a real thing that black Americans do good imaginative insults and swearing? I thought Eddie Murphy and young Will Smith and the guy in Rush Hour were stereotypes with their wisecracking retorts and rudeness. Reg D Hunter has become an honorary Brit - is he known in America at all?

 

[MelissaBaby]

I admit I know roughly zero black Americans - all my family are whitish and live in fairly rural 99% white areas. Many of my black British friends and neighbours are people I try hard not to swear too much in front of because they don't, being nice churchgoing types, but the others have mouths like any other locals.

Is it a real thing that black Americans do good imaginative insults and swearing? I thought Eddie Murphy and young Will Smith and the guy in Rush Hour were stereotypes with their wisecracking retorts and rudeness. Reg D Hunter has become an honorary Brit - is he known in America at all?

Creative, humorous insult competitions, sometimes called "Signifyin'" or "Playing the Dozens", is a long established thing in Black culture. In recent times, it shows up a lot in rap battles. Forget about Eddie or Will, check out some Richard Pryor, or especially Rudy Ray Moore, who became well known for a character called Dolemite. Eddie Murphy made a movie about him a couple of years ago, called Dolemite is My Name

 

[BelleCanzuto]

All this discussion about language changing has me wondering about the pace of change. I’m not sure how one would measure it, but if one could, I would suggest the rate of change has accelerated dramatically since the advent of the PC, internet and cell phones. In the past most people received their language input from verbal language supplemented by various printed materials. Now more people are writing, even if it is by simple texts, and don’t have a teacher or an editor correcting their writing. This in turn can lead to a more rapid acceptance of alternative words or grammatical structures.

I'd agree that language is evolving faster. I think all the exposure to subgroups of people who hardly interacted with mainstream culture without codeswitching has lent a great variety to modern English. I don't have a reference for other languages.

But, for one small example, "give me the t" for gossip, throwing shade, "reading" someone are all pretty mainstream American slang now, whereas, what 10 years ago? or less, those were phrases that were almost exclusively used in gay (or maybe even specifically drag) subculture. No one thinks twice about using those in casual conversation now, at least not many people under 40.

I guess this also touches on the beauty of representation in culture.

Only nine?

I'm still not sure if it's a restricted vocabulary or just a reluctance to play with words, but I don't hear or read much variety in American insults - novels tend to stick to asshole, sonofabitch (has that died since the 80s?), motherfucker, and maybe fucker or fucktard or pussy or cocksucker, to insult men. I never see made-up phrases in American news articles - no "he's got less braincells than a dirty toupee", just very straight, earnest reporting which grates on my British upbringing that requires an undercurrent of humour at all times.

Well, there's yer problem. Lookin' to the news for creative expression. That's just not the way American journalists write, and they'd be expected to paraphrase any quotes along those lines.

Creative, humorous insult competitions, sometimes called "Signifyin'" or "Playing the Dozens", is a long established thing in Black culture. In recent times, it shows up a lot in rap battles. Forget about Eddie or Will, check out some Richard Pryor, or especially Rudy Ray Moore, who became well known for a character called Dolemite. Eddie Murphy made a movie about him a couple of years ago, called Dolemite is My Name

Truth.