Problems with heterosexual pornography; a rant

[WillowedCabin]

I would like to start off by saying that I am a HUGE porn enthusiast. I think porn has great potential in the liberation of sexuality and promoting acceptance and understanding between different sexual demographics--and it's a non-productive, fun distraction This being said, I think porn is just like anything else that exists; it's 90% shit.

I find that most of the hetero pornography I come across suffers from a few crippling symptoms that really keeps me from sinking my teeth in.

1) a huge lack of POV porn from a woman's perspective. Granted, I'm sure these videos exist, but how come it feels like the porn industry left out 50% of human consciousness?

2) the objectification of the male body. I always feel like the men in these videos tend to be nothing but silent penises thrusting into a screaming body. Aren't men MORE than penises? Aren't there other erogenous zones? And, don't we care if they are enjoying themselves or not? We can't even see their faces!!

3) all hetero porn tends to end with the male orgasm; my question is: why? If the woman was five seconds before writhing on the bed about to finish and the man beats her, the video is over. Why doesn't he finish her, or she finish herself?! It doesn't make any sense.

4) why doesn't anyone laugh in porn? This may seem silly to everyone else, but sex is first and foremost a blast. I feel like if an alien visited our planet and watched all of our porn, he would never know sex was something people thought of as fun. Don't get me wrong, angry or serious sex is HOT... but, whatever happened to, 'let's play put my penis in your vagina'?

**I am not by any means saying that my four 'issues' don't have their place, or cannot be sexy. What I am saying is I'd like some variation in my hetero porn---and I'd like it yesterday!

Am I the only who feels sexually frustrated by bad porn? Am I just crazy?
Help a bitch out.

 

[LindsayRae]

How come it feels like the porn industry left out 50% of human consciousness?

That's because most porn is produced by men. Try some of the newer porn companies that are owned/ran by women and made for women. (And, no, I'm not saying lesbian porn. There are female directors who conduct hetero porn.)

 

[greenjacobin]

When I write my stories with consideration to my needs and wants as a woman, I get a respectable number of hits. When I write my stories with consideration to the needs and wants of men, I get easily four times as many hits.

From a business perspective, I can see why the porn industry creates "male" porn. It's a much. much larger market.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Do you have names of these companies, LindsayRae? I feel like we ought to start a list.

 

[LindsayRae]

I will start some research on the net. I know I've seen episodes on Real Sex and Pornucopia talking about them! Yes, some was lesbian porn, but not all.

 

[Skoti]

Porn plots...no, this isn't a joke.

Another thing that's terrible about nearly every single porn I have ever seen (millions, hahahahah) is that there is very, very, very rarely a plot besides *pizza delivery guy rings doorbell, hot chick answers door, hot chick leads delivery guy by the dick to the bedroom or kitchen, delivery guy fucks her, delivery guy thanks her for the tip*. Really? I don't know about everyone else, but when I was in my Penthouse days (or similar magazines) I didn't jack off to the pictures NEARLY as much as I did the exalted Penthouse Letters. Throw something believable and engaging in there, do something to draw me in besides show me a battered pussy. If you suck my brain into it, I'm THERE, and I guarantee I'll be a far more loyal and worthwhile customer.

 

[DarkBee]

I find porn much more enjoyable when the actors are of the same gender (lez, trans, gay), which is what I watch all the time; that way the people involved are equal instead of one person doing all the motions and the other one just providing the genitals (can work both ways).

 

[LindsayRae]

On a side note, I oftentimes prefer the porns that have no plot. Don't pretend your "actors" are, in fact, actors. They cannot act. Just get to the fucking. Don't "explain" why the pizza boy or pool boy is screwing the MILF or why, suddenly, mommy's boyfriend would rather fuck the daughter in pigtails.

Some women directors are:
Tristan Taormino
Celeste
Belladonna (that's right, the porn "actress")
Stormy Daniels
Kimberly Kane
Diana Devoe
jamYe waXman
Mason
Candida Royalle
Suze Randall


*Some of them produce hetero porn, some gay porn, and some of them both!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm going to say for the umpteenth time that women prefer some context in their fucking.

It doesn't have to be luuurve. It doesn't have to be a pizza boy. It doesn't have to be plot. It doesn't even have to be motivation, in particular.

But an anonymous dick going in and out of a twat that's attached to a make-up plastered face making a mouth like an "O"... what the fuck is that?

 

[greenjacobin]

On a side note, I oftentimes prefer the porns that have no plot. Don't pretend your "actors" are, in fact, actors. They cannot act. Just get to the fucking. Don't "explain" why the pizza boy or pool boy is screwing the MILF or why, suddenly, mommy's boyfriend would rather fuck the daughter in pigtails.

My sentiments, exactly!

 

[greenjacobin]

I'm going to say for the umpteenth time that women prefer some context in their fucking.

It doesn't have to be luuurve. It doesn't have to be a pizza boy. It doesn't have to be plot. It doesn't even have to be motivation, in particular.

But an anonymous dick going in and out of a twat that's attached to a make-up plastered face making a mouth like an "O"... what the fuck is that?

I agree! But I have given up on ever seeing it.

As LindsayRae pointed out, the acting is horrible. That being the case, spare me the attempts at creating context, just give me the sex.

 

[WillowedCabin]

Hoorah for responses!

Throw something believable and engaging in there, do something to draw me in besides show me a battered pussy. If you suck my brain into it, I'm THERE, and I guarantee I'll be a far more loyal and worthwhile customer.

You know, it's funny; I used to get into arguments with my exboyfriend about philosophical aestheticism and the role of art in pornography (I know, a couple teenagers arguing about verisimilitude while masturbating--- hot right?). He argued that the less real the porn, the better. Sort of like why we love 'Toxic Avenger' and all those other really terrible B movies-- they are so bad that they are good. Yet, I do understand exactly what you mean, Skoti. I feel like my brain and my genitals go really well together. I'd like to see someone really hook me with a plot.

Yet, what is the point of pornography? Is this the creation of a new reality in which pizza boys get lucky, or is this realism? What is sexier? Can there be both? And can more 'artistic' porn be sexy... or is that just mixing two things that have nothing to do with each other?

From a business perspective, I can see why the porn industry creates "male" porn. It's a much. much larger market.

I'm going to have to see some stats on that. Like, yesterday. I keep hearing people tell me that women don't like porn or that women don't watch porn. That women are not stimulated by pictures, or that women like 'erotica' not porn. I have news: all the women I know, watch porn. I watch porn. And if women don't watch as much porn, perhaps it's because of what I listed above with my four issues. Maybe someone already stacked the deck on woman's porn. Speaking of which, here's a favorite quote of mine:

"I don't agree with the widespread division between porn and erotic films in which the term 'porn' refers to male goods which are hardcore, explicit, filthy, rude, degrading to women, and the term 'erotic films' refers to female goods which are romantic, implicit, sterile, soft, and not degrading to women. I think that this division often presents another stereotype saying women want romance, men want sex. I think that the rise of adult entertainment for women in recent years proves that women want sex, they want hardcore."-- Erika Lust, screenplay writer, director, and producer of pornography.

PS: y'all should check out who Erika Lust is. She kicks serious ass.

Do you have names of these companies, LindsayRae? I feel like we ought to start a list.

I absolutely agree! I found some cool contributions:
I don't watch this for the hetero porn (I don't even thing she makes hetero...) but the models and everything that happens is absolutely beautiful.
http://www.abbywinters.com/tour

Also, here's a gender queer filmmaker icon of mine:
http://jizlee.com/wordpress/film/
and an excerpt from an interview:

"The Scavenger: You are involved in productions that steer away from ‘vanilla sex.’ Why is it important to you, to show things like urination, menstrual blood, body hair, fisting, BDSM and ejaculation in your work?

Jiz Lee: Because these things are a part of sex! These things (and other taboo subjects) are a part of the sex we have, and are valid desires and physical sexual responses. When something like female ejaculation is censored, the statement made is that it is shameful, obscene – or worse: that it doesn’t even exist… The more that female ejaculation, fisting, menstrual blood, hair, and other natural things happen in porn, the more people who love these things can feel secure in their pleasure or appearance. I especially value kink being portrayed in pornography where it promotes communication and consent. Pornography can be dark, titillating, challenging, and educating. As a powerful medium, porn can be a very empowering tool."
Genderqueer feminist porn star Jiz Lee interviewed by The Scavenger

A good hetero porn site (not sure if it's run by a woman, man, or wookie):
http://tour.girlsoutwest.com/

Also, I think this director was already mentioned in the 'the list':
http://fleshbot.com/#!5272579/tristan-taormino-shows-straight-men-the-back-door

And here's a poster of 'female directors':
http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr...469331&Signature=TCDwiJIBUWiN3TbBKq6dxezEPLc=

And a list of accredited feminist directors:
http://fleshbot.com/#!5230119/feminist-porn-awards-the-full-list-of-winners

And last, but not least, this porn site is awesome; and I found this article to be interesting:
http://altporn.net/news/2009/03/20/the-evolution-and-perception-of-ethics-in-altporn/

If you read all of this, you deserve a cookie.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Of course "porn for men" is a larger market. Women won't buy what's on offer. It hasn't yet occurred to the big corps that they could increase income by catering to women. They firmly believe that women don't buy porn.

 

[LindsayRae]

I'm going to say for the umpteenth time that women prefer some context in their fucking.


But an anonymous dick going in and out of a twat that's attached to a make-up plastered face making a mouth like an "O"... what the fuck is that?

I've never been a fan of the fake Barbie women. I don't like huge tits, especially the fake ones. I don't like it when they cake the make up on. I especially hate it when they have the shaving irritation/shaving pimples all over their cunt and ass.

I am, however, a woman. And I do like it when they get to the fucking. I didn't care for the "stories" in the 70s and 80s and will FF through all that shit. (Some examples being "I Like to be Watched" with Canyon, "Deep Throat" with Chambers, and even *new* ones like "Teenie Boppers #40" or whatever.)

 

[sunandshadow]

Of course "porn for men" is a larger market. Women won't buy what's on offer. It hasn't yet occurred to the big corps that they could increase income by catering to women. They firmly believe that women don't buy porn.

Women won't buy what's on offer. But producing stuff of a quality women would buy would be a lot more expensive than producing what's on offer. The increased expense of higher-quality erotic movies would probably limit the number of people willing to buy them. I hate that it is this way, because I'd really love to see erotic versions of some of my favorite fantasy movies and Shakespearean interpretations which have gorgeous costumes and good acting. But an erotic movie which had a budget comparable to one of the lord of the rings movies or twilight movies or harry potter movies wouldn't be able to recoup that budget and a profit in sales no matter how well-written, beautifully acted, and all-around gorgeous the resulting erotic movie was.

 

[AlmostAlice]

I think a lot of these problems are specific to professional porn? Amateur, or "amateur" porn is generally better regarding the female orgasm, people giggling, etc. And there's a better variety of body types around, so it's not always Plastic Surgery Barbie and Torpedo Ken (not that that isn't nice to have).

I feel like either porn should have nice story and convincing acting, or just no story at all - nothing wrong with leaving some things to the imagination. Anything halfway is usually pretty lame.

 

[Que]

Agree with all the above. As far is the reason that simple economics. It's not a huge margin but definitely more men view porn than women. THe big problem with female driven porn is women for whatever reason simply will not pay for pornography. One could of course argue that they would pay if in fact they were having their needs and desires met. I suspect its biology. women don't do a lot of thinking with your penises (penii?) which is pretty much men use to make their decisions to point down some cash for some porn.

Also and not insignifigantly, if a women wants to watch some screwing all she needs to do is have a mirror at home, and mention her interest to anyone with a penis.

 

[sunandshadow]

I agree that most pornography is unappealing.

Women are too skinny most of the time. I don't know why skinny women are preferred to such a degree in professional pornography. I shouldn't complain about it because I realize some folks like them skinnier but their needs to be some body fat or else you don't see any curves. How is that appealing?

As for the part about women not getting enough porn. It is true that it's not in high demand. I don't get romance novels aimed at men, despite the fact that I love romance and have met other guys who like the genre also. So I am very aware of the pain from being ignored like that. Plus I enjoy many of the porn sites I have come across for women because I get off on women enjoying themselves. So its a double downer for me. if all porn was made for women and all romance was made for guys I'd probably be in heaven .

Have you ever played a dating sim? Those bear at least some relation to romances aimed at men.

As a romance writer I'd be quite interested in hearing about what you envision a romance novel aimed at men should be like. I'm having a tough time envisioning it, myself. Romance (the usual for-women kind) is shaped on a deep level by women's concerns about finding a man who can be trusted to be faithful, supportive (especially of childbearing), protective, a good provider, and a source of good genes. Men don't really have the same kind of concerns or the same kind of laundry list of what they want in a mate.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Women won't buy what's on offer. But producing stuff of a quality women would buy would be a lot more expensive than producing what's on offer. The increased expense of higher-quality erotic movies would probably limit the number of people willing to buy them. I hate that it is this way, because I'd really love to see erotic versions of some of my favorite fantasy movies and Shakespearean interpretations which have gorgeous costumes and good acting. But an erotic movie which had a budget comparable to one of the lord of the rings movies or twilight movies or harry potter movies wouldn't be able to recoup that budget and a profit in sales no matter how well-written, beautifully acted, and all-around gorgeous the resulting erotic movie was.

I used to think that too-- that there had to be a story and real actors for a porn film to get me off.

But I've come to realise that's not really so. Women are damn good at seeing the context in the faintest of hints -- gee, maybe because we have had no choice? and in fact, the films that have tried that have been revolting-- the story of O from the seventies, and there was some other film that got good reception the first time so they made more. "Evangeline in bangcock" or something like that.

But that's not necessary. There doesn't have to be a big storyline. There just has to be some connection. One of the best series of queer films is "The Crash Pad." There's one set, used over and over again. When people come into the room, they have some past history, which we learn about to a larger or smaller extent, and what they do is in that context. Women are pretty good at picking that stuff up, and it's satisfying: men not, but they don't care so much anyways. It seems like a win/win to me

The one reason Crash Pad-type films might cost more to make though, is that the film team spends more time on the filming. They don't use fluffers to get the penis character ready to squirt, they let the man himself get hard in his own time... get to know the woman. And that lets the viewers get to know them too. That's what makes it sexy.
It becomes more genuine.

 

[WillowedCabin]

In response:

Agree with all the above. As far is the reason that simple economics. It's not a huge margin but definitely more men view porn than women. THe big problem with female driven porn is women for whatever reason simply will not pay for pornography. One could of course argue that they would pay if in fact they were having their needs and desires met. I suspect its biology. women don't do a lot of thinking with your penises (penii?) which is pretty much men use to make their decisions to point down some cash for some porn.

Also and not insignifigantly, if a women wants to watch some screwing all she needs to do is have a mirror at home, and mention her interest to anyone with a penis.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr...491503&Signature=T5H9YCapU6d2wLFLton+xQxGWA0=

--Okay, I'm going to have to take this apart. 'female driven porn isn't economical'? Let's break this down; I'm a woman. And if I made porn, it would be no joking around, real, hardcore, sex; you can keep your big sets, your knitting patterns, your expensive fake tits, and your lace. I think what I'm asking for is porn that isn't shitty-- that's all. And porn that doesn't leave us out of the viewer demographic. I don't think we're confusing our 'romance novels' with pornography.
--On the subject of biology, women can absolutely think with their clitoris. Are you aware that women are more likely to dance erratically, flirt, and show more skin at a club while ovulating? Biology is telling us to seek multiple partners constantly. And furthermore, can you really be so severe on the male sex? Isn't it about time we take the men out of caves? Why do we assume men foam at the mouth over titties-- are men incapable of making smart, artistic porn? And why does artistic mean big-bucks?! There are whole branches of wonderful, artistically provoking cinema that is low budget. My point is, you can have great porn, without a script from Pride and Prej., without Colin Firth, and still make a wonderfully sexy porno.
--On the subject of 'if women want to see some screwing'--woah, what the hell. Can we all understand that watching porn about something doesn't exactly mean you want to do it? How many of us enjoy watching fetishes that we don't actually partake in? I would bet a ton of us. And guess what, that's just fine!! I love watching male/male gay porn and I'm not a male. So that whole idea that 'if a woman wants to see fucking' she can just go do it, is a bit odd and doesn't really have to do with this discussion.

As a romance writer I'd be quite interested in hearing about what you envision a romance novel aimed at men should be like. I'm having a tough time envisioning it, myself. Romance (the usual for-women kind) is shaped on a deep level by women's concerns about finding a man who can be trusted to be faithful, supportive (especially of childbearing), protective, a good provider, and a source of good genes. Men don't really have the same kind of concerns or the same kind of laundry list of what they want in a mate.

Alright, I'm going to have to take this apart. Romance novels today are not romance novels in the past. We can argue about why romance novels from the 80s were all the same, but that would just devolve this conversation even more so. Today what defines a romance novel is 'it is about love'-- the end. There are women writing romance novels about gay relationships and alternative lifestyles. Also, don't forget the number of novels written about alpha-heroine, kick-ass types who have multiple lovers and are more the 'knight and shinning armor' than 'the damsel in distress'. In fact, if we're really going to get into it, I think older more 'traditional' romances sold because the women readers were able to identify with their hero, and live vicariously through his 'alpha-male' decisions, simply because in their own lives they were so repressed that they never truly got to make their own decisions. And as for 'men aren't as picky' about their mates thing, I'm not sure that's true. I think people are people. A man at 45 wants something VERY DIFFERENT in a mate than a man at 18. We all want stability and good genes, but we're not fucking chimps.
-On a side note, there are specific categories given to romances about 'finding mates for breeding'; they are usually marked as 'all American romances' or 'family romance'. They even now have Nascar romances (vomit). But hey, whatever floats your boat.

And what kind of romance novel would men write? Hm, depends. Maybe if culture would stop boxing men into the tiny 'machismo' hole, we could find out. And uh, I think men have written romance before... how about the Odyssey, Tale of Two Cities, or ANY of Shakespeare's romances? What about the thousands of male poets who have written wonderful verses on love? Is there anything that verse can't do that fiction does?

*breathes* okay, I'm done ranting now.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Agree with all the above. As far is the reason that simple economics. It's not a huge margin but definitely more men view porn than women. THe big problem with female driven porn is women for whatever reason simply will not pay for pornography. One could of course argue that they would pay if in fact they were having their needs and desires met. I suspect its biology. women don't do a lot of thinking with your penises (penii?) which is pretty much men use to make their decisions to point down some cash for some porn.

Chicken-and-egg. if marketers paid as much attention to women's preferences in porn-- as they do when they design shoes-- you'd see some shelling out. Trust me.

Also and not insignifigantly, if a women wants to watch some screwing all she needs to do is have a mirror at home, and mention her interest to anyone with a penis.

Except that "anyone with a penis" is NOT what women want out of their porn. They want someone they can get into-- with a penis, or not, depending...

 

[Stella_Omega]

You're melting my little heart, organsinmains!

I'd like to suggest Sarah Rees Brennan's "Demon's Lexicon" trilogy for you then. it isn't exactly romance, it's urban fantasy/ YA (you might find a lot of your kind of reading in YA genre) And there's a lot going on in it... including several brash and princely women

 

[infinity706]

Of course "porn for men" is a larger market. Women won't buy what's on offer. It hasn't yet occurred to the big corps that they could increase income by catering to women. They firmly believe that women don't buy porn.

I don't know. I've heard it a lot on the internet, but I haven't really seen it in person. What I have seen is that a lot of women are full of shit and putting on an act, as badly as all the "straight" guys that hide their love of cock. I, honestly, don't have enough fingers to count the number of women I've met this year that have lied to every boyfriend they've had and told them that they're straight and even if they were, they'd certainly never let a guy watch. Afterall, that would be objectifying women They'll drop their beliefs like a hot potato in exchange for getting to see guy on guy action. A lot of women are just as into the guy/guy thing as a lot of guys are for the girl/girl.

I've seen the same thing with porn, though. I've been told about the plot thing, but when you get down to practice, it's often a different thing. A lot of those women drop that, too, and want to watch gangbangs, rape porn, BDSM, pissing, fucking a baseball bat, and especially, "mature" women. From what I've seen, quite a lot of women love the supposed "male fantasies." They just hide it and lie to men because they're terrified of being seen as the freak.

Honestly, it's about as much of an epidemic as gay bashers soliciting male prostitutes/abusing little boys and beauty queens with sex tapes. To be honest, I have to assume at least half of the "porn is rape" women probably enjoy being tied up, whipped, and throat fucked.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You're right, more women than most straight men could possibly imagine-- really love M/M action. Some of the women in this thread have mentioned it.

There are lots of studies out about this, I can hunt them down if anyone's interested-- from women talking about it personally, to men being befuddled and trying to force the notion into their Evo-Bio theories (quite a tap dance, and very entertaining to watch)

There seem to be three motivations overall:

If a woman objectifies male bodies, two guys is even better than one. Plus, gay porn shows whole bodies, because gay men like men. They want to look at men. A straight woman does too.

If a woman is extremely aware of gender politics, M/M is good hard fucking minus the "females are sluts" message that she KNOWS she'll get from het pron (this is probably the problem for the women you're complaining about, infinity. It isn't hypocrisy, it's all of a piece.)

If a woman is not conventionally feminine, she can place herself into the action as one of the men.

And a bonus for women concerning gay porn, there IS more likely to be connection between the guys. More context.

They just hide it and lie to men because they're terrified of being seen as the freak.

Damn right, because you know what happens to women who are the freak? Things they do not want in their lives, ever. That last for the rest of their lives, too. Do you blame gay men for staying in the closet? It's a very similar thing, with very similar repurcussions.

To be honest, I have to assume at least half of the "porn is rape" women probably enjoy being tied up, whipped, and throat fucked.

That's a hell of an asshole assumption. Try not to be bitter.

 

[sunandshadow]

There are undoubtedly some women who like porn with no plot or romance but I'm deeply skeptical that they would be a majority. Any place I go where women are talking about creating erotica they aren't talking much about men's looks, they aren't talking much about particular sexual acts, they are talking A LOT about men's personalities that are hot and situations (aka plot) that men could be in which would be hot. If you go to a forum which has a fiction section and an art section there will always be a higher proportion of men requesting visual images of characters and sexual acts, and there will always be a higher proportion of women requesting stories about characters feeling particular emotions and a relationship progression they want to see occur.