Presented the opportunity....

[Belle966]

The difference is that I dislike that capacity in myself, and do not seek to place myself in situations where it occurs. I am well aware of what I am capable of in such a headspace, and attempting to get into that for recreational reasons is the height of folly.

For some reason, I often seem to find myself in those kind of situations. I don't consciously seek them out, but perhaps I'm just drawn to them somehow.

When I'm not in a sexual mood or context, I can completely empathise with the fear of rape and I do have an emotional reaction. Sometimes, I don't find it arousing at all, although I'm always curious about the subject! Depends on the moment really.

 

[neci]

Porn to me is Natural Born Killers.

sorry! i just had to quote this. i absolutely love this movie.

 

[JMohegan]

Of course.

As morally wrong as what went down, no. But repugnant, morally wrong, sure. But again, not as wrong as what went down, which is where the image should be pointing.

Is showing this in court an outrage a second violation etc. etc. Well, yes, however if it puts these people away, quite worth it. Not a second's pause in my my mind, while being fully aware that it isn't pleasant.

Complete agreement on these points. No question.

If the viewing of images shatters our puppies and kitties sense of reality and makes us wonder how we can respond or change things or do differently, then some disquietude is something we'll have to live with.

If I see something violent, experience arousal at it, and then revulsion with my own arousal, if I'm not a freaking psychopath through and through, I'll stay in touch with what in me can possibly be dangerous. Some people are psychopathic sociopaths and frankly you'll have to lock up all Bibles books and films because they'll find any justification, it doesn't have to be a rape video to send one over the edge.

I agree with the last paragraph here, but see the assertion on shattering our "puppies and kitties sense of reality" as problematic - mostly because I think that's a very big "IF."

Just hearing that a 15 year old girl was gang raped for 2 hours at a high school, with multiple bystanders watching, laughing, and snapping pics of the event, is enough for me to know that immediate changes in security, supervision, mentorship, and broader social programs need to take place. Viewing the image itself, for me, is entirely unnecessary in reaching that conclusion.

Perhaps this is because I have actually seen rapes in progress, and intervened to break them up. I know this shit really does happen, and I also know that these incidents are not exclusive to certain neighborhoods.

Maybe there are others who need the image in order to develop a sense of urgency. On the other hand, maybe there are some who would watch and shrug it off as "not my neighborhood, not my problem." I don't disagree with the notion that your statement describes something possible. But how probable, I just don't know.

 

[SimonBrooke]

actually legally they are both crimes, and being beaten to "within an inch of your life" with consent is a much more prosecutable crime than your average rape.

I think this depends a bit on jurisdiction; remember this is the Internet and people are reading this from all sorts of places. But here in Scotland you're certainly right; any form of BDSM practice is pretty much illegal, even in the privacy of your own home.

 

[00Syd]

I think this depends a bit on jurisdiction; remember this is the Internet and people are reading this from all sorts of places. But here in Scotland you're certainly right; any form of BDSM practice is pretty much illegal, even in the privacy of your own home.

I love being from NYC.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

IF I am going to be completely honest with myself, I would probably watch the video, and I would probably get off on it.

I am a sadistic dominant, and I do love to skirt the edges of consensuality...

 

[InternetAlias]

Originally Posted by JMohegan
Let's consider this case.

I agree that outrage should be placed on the rapists and bystanders who "allowed those images to exist." I also agree that the police should retain the cell phone images of the crime, in order to prove in court that it actually happened.

However, assuming that one of those bystanders had sent one or more cell phone images of the crime to friends, who sent them friends, who sent them to more friends, and so on and so on... would you consider that chain of sending to be morally wrong in any sense?

Of course.

As morally wrong as what went down, no. But repugnant, morally wrong, sure. But again, not as wrong as what went down, which is where the image should be pointing.

Is showing this in court an outrage a second violation etc. etc. Well, yes, however if it puts these people away, quite worth it. Not a second's pause in my my mind, while being fully aware that it isn't pleasant. If the viewing of images shatters our puppies and kitties sense of reality and makes us wonder how we can respond or change things or do differently, then some disquietude is something we'll have to live with.

If I see something violent, experience arousal at it, and then revulsion with my own arousal, if I'm not a freaking psychopath through and through, I'll stay in touch with what in me can possibly be dangerous. Some people are psychopathic sociopaths and frankly you'll have to lock up all Bibles books and films because they'll find any justification, it doesn't have to be a rape video to send one over the edge.

This particular point I think is the only one I am interested enough in commenting on since my last post on this thread.

My thoughts are very confused on this particular aspect of morality on this issue. In some senses I am very clear with my own moral viewpoint: the act itself is wrong and recording the act could be wrong (complacent bystanders, participants etc). I also agree that distributing such a video without the victim's express consent would also be morally wrong, even if it was in a court.

I'm not convinced at all that the act of watching the video is itself morally wrong. Depending on the circumstances, watching it certainly could be one part of what I see as an immoral act (you go to find it, emotionally or materially compensate the author/s etc), but watching it with disgust/disapproval, impassiveness or even arousal I don't think crosses a (my?) moral line. I'm not convinced by the argument that merely the act of viewing it means you are increasing a potential target audience by +1 and therefore indirectly justifying its creation.

In the end I agree with...

I don't see it being much more heinous than watching a youtube video of an A-10 blowing an Afghan town to smithereens.

 

[clitoral]

I know for sure that I would because I have an entire folder full of genuine rape vids that I got from 4chan, 12chan, 888chan, shareaza, limewire, bearshare, and frostwire. Rape is my favorite kind of porn and if I even think it is fake, I am turned off by it. The very fact that it is real and that it happened for real to someone is what makes it so good for me. The camerawork doesn't have to be great, the girl doesn't even have to be hot, the quality doesn't have to be high definition, I just need to see that my fantasies do come true and therefore, there is hope that I can have what I want some day. It validates my fantasies, it gives me ideas for new fantasies, and it proves that I'm not alone in wanting those things because someone else actually did them instead of just fantasizing about it or acting it out. What if you never had proof that anyone ever wins that lottery? Would people still buy tickets to a lottery that they know they won't win? Why do people pay so much attention to celebrities? Because they like to see that their dreams of being rich, famouse, and important can and do come true. Lifestyles of the rich and famous? Same thing! My super sweet 16, same thing. We like to see that what we want is real and that other people have attained it, and we want to know how they attained it, and we want it on video, not just in print. Why do I like watching real rape vids? Because I'm just like anyone who watches reality t.v.
Go ahead and call me sick and twisted. I have video and photographic proof that I'm not alone.

 

[minx1]

I know for sure that I would because I have an entire folder full of genuine rape vids that I got from 4chan, 12chan, 888chan, shareaza, limewire, bearshare, and frostwire. Rape is my favorite kind of porn and if I even think it is fake, I am turned off by it. The very fact that it is real and that it happened for real to someone is what makes it so good for me. The camerawork doesn't have to be great, the girl doesn't even have to be hot, the quality doesn't have to be high definition, I just need to see that my fantasies do come true and therefore, there is hope that I can have what I want some day. It validates my fantasies, it gives me ideas for new fantasies, and it proves that I'm not alone in wanting those things because someone else actually did them instead of just fantasizing about it or acting it out. What if you never had proof that anyone ever wins that lottery? Would people still buy tickets to a lottery that they know they won't win? Why do people pay so much attention to celebrities? Because they like to see that their dreams of being rich, famouse, and important can and do come true. Lifestyles of the rich and famous? Same thing! My super sweet 16, same thing. We like to see that what we want is real and that other people have attained it, and we want to know how they attained it, and we want it on video, not just in print. Why do I like watching real rape vids? Because I'm just like anyone who watches reality t.v.
Go ahead and call me sick and twisted. I have video and photographic proof that I'm not alone.

Sick and twisted didnt spring to mind.

Extremely worrying did.

Worrying in that you seem to see rape as an achievement....something to attain, to strive for.
That's some life goal to aim for eh. What an achievement.

As for making allowances for less that hot girls. Wow, how very admirable of you. Just so long as you get your rocks off at their expense. After all thats all that matters isnt it.

 

[Cattypuss]

I know for sure that I would because I have an entire folder full of genuine rape vids that I got from 4chan, 12chan, 888chan, shareaza, limewire, bearshare, and frostwire. Rape is my favorite kind of porn and if I even think it is fake, I am turned off by it. The very fact that it is real and that it happened for real to someone is what makes it so good for me. The camerawork doesn't have to be great, the girl doesn't even have to be hot, the quality doesn't have to be high definition, I just need to see that my fantasies do come true and therefore, there is hope that I can have what I want some day. It validates my fantasies, it gives me ideas for new fantasies, and it proves that I'm not alone in wanting those things because someone else actually did them instead of just fantasizing about it or acting it out. What if you never had proof that anyone ever wins that lottery? Would people still buy tickets to a lottery that they know they won't win? Why do people pay so much attention to celebrities? Because they like to see that their dreams of being rich, famouse, and important can and do come true. Lifestyles of the rich and famous? Same thing! My super sweet 16, same thing. We like to see that what we want is real and that other people have attained it, and we want to know how they attained it, and we want it on video, not just in print. Why do I like watching real rape vids? Because I'm just like anyone who watches reality t.v.
Go ahead and call me sick and twisted. I have video and photographic proof that I'm not alone.

This is psychopathc thinking and behaviour.

 

[clitoral]

You obviously know nothing about psychosis. Let's not degenerate to what amounts to nothing more than name calling.

 

[clitoral]

Sick and twisted didnt spring to mind.

Extremely worrying did.

Worrying in that you seem to see rape as an achievement....something to attain, to strive for.
That's some life goal to aim for eh. What an achievement.

As for making allowances for less that hot girls. Wow, how very admirable of you. Just so long as you get your rocks off at their expense. After all thats all that matters isnt it.

I have no delusions of being able to explain myself so that anyone would ever agree with me who didn't already agree with me beforehand.
However, I think that your response is at least worth a reply.
I understand why you are worried by what I said. I think that your empathy for the one being raped is admirable and understandable, and in fact, your point of view is "normal." But when you say "as long as you get your rocks off at their expense... that's all that matters" I feel I must point out that the girls in the videos will NEVER know that I saw those vids. Those girls don't have a personal hit counter like a website so she knows that one more person just saw the vid. Since she will never know that I watched it, I have not done any harm to her, and ever other person that sees it after me won't hurt her any more than the initial rape already hurt her.

 

[clitoral]

Because those of us who would watch such a video are usually doing so to live out our fantasies vicariously through the video of those who did what we fantasize about, I pose the question, if you could rape the hottest girl in the world and DEFINITELY get away with it and no one but you would ever know, would you?

 

[Cattypuss]

You obviously know nothing about psychosis. Let's not degenerate to what amounts to nothing more than name calling.

Actually I know exactly what the clinical term "psycopathic" encompasses. Which is why I used it in relation to what you had posted.

 

[Belle966]

.....

 

[ketalia]

I'm so shocked to hear so many emphatic no's!

Nope, I wouldn't watch it. Sorry but that's a line I won't cross.

I suppose you all look straight ahead when passing accidents on the highway as well, huh?!

No I don't. I generally look to see if there is assistance on the scene and if there isn't, I stop and assist. But that's just me, ymmv.

Edit to clarify:

Because I was a victim at a young age and there are stills of my abuse floating around out there, it invokes an immediate "Hulk Must Smash" response in me. There may be video; I don't know. None have surfaced online but I do know that there was some at some time. But I don't want to know. But here is something important. In my experience, FOR ME, just because the abuse happened years ago does NOT negate my feelings knowing that complete strangers are looking at and trading my photos around. It does not matter that it was years ago and I have mostly recovered from the abuse. Every time I am notified that the photos are out there, usually due to some one screwing up and getting themselves caught, it's just like slapping an old bruise. It never fully heals. Like someone said upthread, something inside me died when I was child. Photos of the corpse are still available in some circles. And that, my friends, is fucked up.

I simply can't buy the idea that once the original crime is committed, it is okay to circulate vids and photos because no further harm can be done to the victim. It can be. Especially when sometimes, there is enough identifying info out there that the victim may still be identified years later. For example, I have seriously considered getting a distinctively shaped birth mark removed (a painful and expensive procedure) because people have recognized it. I don't want to be "that girl" anymore, and while I can distance myself and my psyche to some extent, at least one slimeball has tried to hit on me because of some percieved notion that I'm some kind of sex fiend because someone abused me when I was a child. That poor young lady who was gang raped while people came and went and did nothing makes my heart bleed because enough info is out there that to some people she will always be "that girl" and will be judged accordingly.

So....

Because rape is not exciting to me, and because I do not feel that I could deal rationally with a distributor (or someone who wanted to watch it with me) of said video, I would not choose to watch it. The only reason for me to watch it would be in a court case mentioned above, and I know that I could not be rational about my responses so I probably wouldn't be in that situation.

 

[Belle966]

I have no delusions of being able to explain myself so that anyone would ever agree with me who didn't already agree with me beforehand.
However, I think that your response is at least worth a reply.
I understand why you are worried by what I said. I think that your empathy for the one being raped is admirable and understandable, and in fact, your point of view is "normal." But when you say "as long as you get your rocks off at their expense... that's all that matters" I feel I must point out that the girls in the videos will NEVER know that I saw those vids. Those girls don't have a personal hit counter like a website so she knows that one more person just saw the vid. Since she will never know that I watched it, I have not done any harm to her, and ever other person that sees it after me won't hurt her any more than the initial rape already hurt her.

This is exactly what I was trying to express before. Watching a video doesn't hurt anyone any more than simple fantasising does, yet it's viewed so differently.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Because those of us who would watch such a video are usually doing so to live out our fantasies vicariously through the video of those who did what we fantasize about, I pose the question, if you could rape the hottest girl in the world and DEFINITELY get away with it and no one but you would ever know, would you?

No, of course not. If you would, you have crossed a very important line.

 

[SimonBrooke]

This is exactly what I was trying to express before. Watching a video doesn't hurt anyone any more than simple fantasising does, yet it's viewed so differently.

This just completely isn't true.

The victim may not have a hit-counter on the website, but the person who publishes the pictures or video probably does. They feed off the feedback they get from the people who watch it; that feedback validates them, makes them feel what they have done is acceptable or even daring. And because it validates what they have done, it encourages them to repeat the behaviour.

So no - viewing the video does not directly hurt the victim in the video. But it does hurt perpetrator's next victim, because without the encouragement the perpetrator gets through that feedback there might not be a 'next victim'.

I'm not pretending this area is simple or black and white. I have said before and I will say again that in my opinion there's absolutely no way you can tell for certain watching a video or looking at a picture whether what looks like rape is real or consenting. And some rape scenes certainly can be hot, for me. And as I've argued elsewhere there are wide grey areas around the margins of consent.

But ultimately we all know what we mean by rape: it's sex that one of the parties (almost always the party being penetrated) does not consent to at any level. On the good old fashioned test of 'do as you would be done by' that's clearly wrong. So being complicit in it is wrong. End of story.

 

[Homburg]

Actually I know exactly what the clinical term "psycopathic" encompasses. Which is why I used it in relation to what you had posted.

This is what I was thinking. "Psychosis" and "Psychopathy" are entirely different animals.

 

[Firebrain]

Are they hot?

 

[Netzach]

Because those of us who would watch such a video are usually doing so to live out our fantasies vicariously through the video of those who did what we fantasize about, I pose the question, if you could rape the hottest girl in the world and DEFINITELY get away with it and no one but you would ever know, would you?

If I could plunger sodomize people who would, I would get off on that.

I'm totally getting hot thinking about it.

If I had a little mentally ignited control panel that alerted me to where they lived and I knew to jump in my batmobile with plunger, restraints, Marathon Man dental kit tm. and no one would ever find me? Even better if somehow someone like me were waiting for them in their brain indeliably on the other end of their *fantasy* about such things, that's kind of a hot mind control wank for me. Almost all of my incredibly inhumane fantasies involve convicted rapists, not because I need to feel justified (the punishment exceeds the crime) but because a little righteous indignation is that much hotter isn't it? Revenge narratives are a kind of mass market porn in themselves.

 

[minx1]

I have no delusions of being able to explain myself so that anyone would ever agree with me who didn't already agree with me beforehand.
However, I think that your response is at least worth a reply.
I understand why you are worried by what I said. I think that your empathy for the one being raped is admirable and understandable, and in fact, your point of view is "normal." But when you say "as long as you get your rocks off at their expense... that's all that matters" I feel I must point out that the girls in the videos will NEVER know that I saw those vids. Those girls don't have a personal hit counter like a website so she knows that one more person just saw the vid. Since she will never know that I watched it, I have not done any harm to her, and ever other person that sees it after me won't hurt her any more than the initial rape already hurt her.

Thanks for your response.

Actually from what I read, I am not sure my reaction is the ''normal'' one.

I do however think you are wrong when you say that you arent contributing to the hurt. To me thats just a get out. An excuse.

You are sharing in somebody's violation. Something immensely personal and shattering. You have read peoples accounts here of how rape has impacted them, yet you are choosing to watch the moments someones life is destroyed, just for sexual gratification.

I am sorry if that sounds harsh or overly emotional, but that is exactly how I see it.

Its the choice thing again. And faced with that choice, you choose to watch. You seek them out and ultimately you and everyone else who makes that choice helps to increase the demand for those kind of videos.

I find it a naive excuse to say you are doing no harm.

 

[Marquis]

Well, this thread certainly took off!

Would you pay to watch a rape video? Even if it were just a few dollars?

That's a really interesting question, it brings up the notion that by paying for it I would somehow be contributing to a market for such material and thus a demand.

On the other hand, time is money so in some sense even considering watching the video is in a way spending money on it. It seems likely that a market for such materials does exist, however undeveloped it may be.

Interesting question, I don't have an answer. I think it would come down to the specific situation, if some guy came up to me at a bar and said "for 50 bucks I'll let you see this video I made of this girl I kidnapped and raped," I would definitely not view it and probably call the cops.

I really don't know how I would ever come to possess such a video, but I wouldn't do anything to contribute to the prosperity of the attacker, that's for sure.

My mother spent a year, very late in life, studying to be an OR assistant. This was a woman who couldn't stand to see an IV in my arm. Amazingly, what stopped her from going into the field was not an inability to watch, participate, and look, as entrails are drawn out and resectioned, as eyes are removed, but the reality of 58 year old reflexes and timing. If people in general could not be able to shut off this part of their brains, we'd be in big trouble as a species.

Great point!

I know for sure that I would because I have an entire folder full of genuine rape vids that I got from 4chan, 12chan, 888chan, shareaza, limewire, bearshare, and frostwire. Rape is my favorite kind of porn and if I even think it is fake, I am turned off by it. The very fact that it is real and that it happened for real to someone is what makes it so good for me. The camerawork doesn't have to be great, the girl doesn't even have to be hot, the quality doesn't have to be high definition, I just need to see that my fantasies do come true and therefore, there is hope that I can have what I want some day. It validates my fantasies, it gives me ideas for new fantasies, and it proves that I'm not alone in wanting those things because someone else actually did them instead of just fantasizing about it or acting it out. What if you never had proof that anyone ever wins that lottery? Would people still buy tickets to a lottery that they know they won't win? Why do people pay so much attention to celebrities? Because they like to see that their dreams of being rich, famouse, and important can and do come true. Lifestyles of the rich and famous? Same thing! My super sweet 16, same thing. We like to see that what we want is real and that other people have attained it, and we want to know how they attained it, and we want it on video, not just in print. Why do I like watching real rape vids? Because I'm just like anyone who watches reality t.v.
Go ahead and call me sick and twisted. I have video and photographic proof that I'm not alone.

This is the kind of truly bizarre and interesting opinion I was hoping to have access to.

I am curious about what you are saying here though. Are you male or female?

Are you hoping you will be raped one day, or hoping to rape someone?

Either one seems easily enough achieved, if you are a guy you could just pick a girl off the street and rape her, if you are a girl you could simply put yourself in an isolated and vulnerable position and I'm sure it would happen before long.

If you're struggling with the dichotomy between planning something sufficiently for it to happen and a fantasy that doesn't involve any planning, I think everyone on the board is familiar with that conflict.

I would like to see these comments fleshed out a bit more, there is some interesting stuff in here and I'm not judging you either way.

Because those of us who would watch such a video are usually doing so to live out our fantasies vicariously through the video of those who did what we fantasize about, I pose the question, if you could rape the hottest girl in the world and DEFINITELY get away with it and no one but you would ever know, would you?

My rape fantasies are in no way motivated by the physical attractiveness of the victim, but I think my response is generally similar to Netz's here:

If I could plunger sodomize people who would, I would get off on that.

I'm totally getting hot thinking about it.

If I had a little mentally ignited control panel that alerted me to where they lived and I knew to jump in my batmobile with plunger, restraints, Marathon Man dental kit tm. and no one would ever find me? Even better if somehow someone like me were waiting for them in their brain indeliably on the other end of their *fantasy* about such things, that's kind of a hot mind control wank for me. Almost all of my incredibly inhumane fantasies involve convicted rapists, not because I need to feel justified (the punishment exceeds the crime) but because a little righteous indignation is that much hotter isn't it? Revenge narratives are a kind of mass market porn in themselves.

Speaking of revenge fantasies, ever see Day of the Woman? Rape+Revenge very neatly tied together.

But yeah, a little indignation would go far in making my own rape fantasies more palatable. When my little sister first went off to college we had the "how to stay safe" conversation a few times and it led me to thinking that if something were to happen I would save her the embarrassment of a public trial by butt-raping her attacker in his dorm room at gunpoint, a more private but hopefully no less satisfying justice.

More typical staples of my rape fantasies - fat girls who preempt rejection with bitchiness, super innocent naive girls who rely too heavily on the kindness of strangers and racists - particularly southern belles or on the other end of the spectrum confederate flag waving trailer trash whores.

Nope, I wouldn't watch it. Sorry but that's a line I won't cross.


No I don't. I generally look to see if there is assistance on the scene and if there isn't, I stop and assist. But that's just me, ymmv.

Edit to clarify:

Because I was a victim at a young age and there are stills of my abuse floating around out there, it invokes an immediate "Hulk Must Smash" response in me. There may be video; I don't know. None have surfaced online but I do know that there was some at some time. But I don't want to know. But here is something important. In my experience, FOR ME, just because the abuse happened years ago does NOT negate my feelings knowing that complete strangers are looking at and trading my photos around. It does not matter that it was years ago and I have mostly recovered from the abuse. Every time I am notified that the photos are out there, usually due to some one screwing up and getting themselves caught, it's just like slapping an old bruise. It never fully heals. Like someone said upthread, something inside me died when I was child. Photos of the corpse are still available in some circles. And that, my friends, is fucked up.

I simply can't buy the idea that once the original crime is committed, it is okay to circulate vids and photos because no further harm can be done to the victim. It can be. Especially when sometimes, there is enough identifying info out there that the victim may still be identified years later. For example, I have seriously considered getting a distinctively shaped birth mark removed (a painful and expensive procedure) because people have recognized it. I don't want to be "that girl" anymore, and while I can distance myself and my psyche to some extent, at least one slimeball has tried to hit on me because of some percieved notion that I'm some kind of sex fiend because someone abused me when I was a child. That poor young lady who was gang raped while people came and went and did nothing makes my heart bleed because enough info is out there that to some people she will always be "that girl" and will be judged accordingly.

So....

Because rape is not exciting to me, and because I do not feel that I could deal rationally with a distributor (or someone who wanted to watch it with me) of said video, I would not choose to watch it. The only reason for me to watch it would be in a court case mentioned above, and I know that I could not be rational about my responses so I probably wouldn't be in that situation.

This is an interesting perspective from someone close to the topic at hand.

 

[PertPerth]

I find this topic so very interesting, especially as it's evolved from "would you watch it?" to " Would you enjoy watching it?" which in my mind, are two different things.

A side topic - I am currently reading a book which had many stories - from personal interviews - about real women who have been raped and abused. The purpose of the book was not to entertain, but to educate. IMHO we shouldn't be ignoring the fact that rape happens - it always has and it always will. The victims live to tell the tail. Some gain strength from the experience, and use it to empower themselves. Some allow it to continue.