Prejudice in voting/private feedback

[fursmoke11]

Not a lot that can be done about that I know; but my first votes were 5's on my stories and these have dropped suddenly. Probably because someone found something offensive and voted with prejudice.
This is sad. A little pathetic even.
My stories have several fetishistic elements including furs and smoking. So yes, there are antis on both of those; and my suspicion is one or two voted on the stories with prejudice against one or other of them for being politically incorrect or a turn off for some. A shame. I often read stories here that are badly written but arousing; then some I may find a little unnerving; also those which have fetishes that do not really interest me. But better not to vote than be prejudiced against them surely? We aren't voting for political reasons here surely?
Still; I have some great private feedback from ladies which helps .

Here are two:

"Thankyou thankyou!
Twenty years ago I could sit at a bar and get attention from a man simply by wearing a fur or a beautiful dress, crossing my legs and lighting a cigarette. It was nice that I knew most men could be aroused in this way. Now it seems that young women get attention by showing acres of fat flesh and drinking pints of beer and lobbing their breasts out in a bar.
Reading your stories returned me to a gentile age of more subtle, but possibly more exciting seduction."

"Very classy and erotic thankyou...I love furs...and I love to smoke. I am glad to know that some men still apreciate ."


So on the one hand subjective criticism can be a downer, but on the other hand it can be a boost!

Of course what a writer would really like to know is about the quality of the writing not the subjective assessment of the content; but now I know not to take any notice of voting; and certainly not the one foul mouthed anti that sent me a message. I suggest he goes and burns some books in his Nazi uniform.

Anyway, I wondered also if anyone else had had some of the best feedback anonymously and privately, and wished people felt confident enough to express it in public?

Alo a message to those whose stories may be the butt of prejudice. Always remember that whist everyone is entitled to their own opinion; not everyone's opinion has equal value. The sad thing is that the story which appeals to everyone means it has probably pandered to the lowest common denominator; in the same way that inoffensive weightless pop music makes money and better stuff, or more specialised cultural stuff (bangra or songwriters like PJ Harvey say), stays underground.
A sad reflection on democracy is we get the bland culture we deserve rather than the quality and richness of culture we crave.

 

[sr71plt]

It's just as likely that your stories were zapped (hit with "1" ratings) precisely because their ratings were high and with no reference to the content or your writing ability at all. That's the norm here. Over the past two weeks, I've had four stories sitting quietly at the top of one of the category listings too, and in one fell swoop, they were all knocked down the list with simultaneous "1" votes.

But there's a possible saving grace. This isn't the first time those stories have been at the top of the category list with at least 10 all "5" votes. If you keep an eye on your stories, you'll likely notice that the Web site has a formula for trying to detect spoiler zapper votes and that it makes occasional sweeps on the listings to adjust the statistics. When this happens, you might see your ratings take a sudden jump up (and a couple of votes shaved off your totals). Of course, if someone has been leaning heavily and often on the "5" vote on your stories, you might see the stats go in the other direction as well.

Don't assume it has anything at all to do with your writing ability or the content of your stories.

 

[fursmoke11]

hmmmm...tell me more. How can this be done? Yesterday I had 10 votes on a new story and today that has fallen to 7. I wondered how that could happen.
Yet the average score also dropped significanty.
Explanation?
Are you saying that vote rigging is assumed so vote rigging takes place to counter it? Bizarre.

 

[starrkers]

hmmmm...tell me more. How can this be done? Yesterday I had 10 votes on a new story and today that has fallen to 7. I wondered how that could happen.
Yet the average score also dropped significanty.
Explanation?
Are you saying that vote rigging is assumed so vote rigging takes place to counter it? Bizarre.

Periodically there are "sweeps" of votes. I don't know exactly what the criteria is, but votes deemed to be false are removed.
Duplicate votes are removed (sometimes people will vote on a story every time they call it up, if they really like it, or they may vote twice, not realising they've already voted); "troll" votes are removed (votes that were made without the story being open long enough to read - and I have no idea how that works).
These sweeps happen particularly often when there's a contest on.

 

[Guest]

Additionally, a story tends to score fairly high right after it posts.

Once it gets ten votes, it will show an "H" if the score is 4.5 or above.

THAT, apparently, attracts the trolls.

Trolls are prepubescent, dickless idiots who live in the basement of their parent's homes who tend to low vote as many stories as they can.

Multiple votes on stories, or low votes (when the rest of the votes are much higher) will be eliminated during those periodic sweeps.

Make sense?

 

[sr71plt]

"Are you saying that vote rigging is assumed so vote rigging takes place to counter it?"

I don't think there's any "rigging" in what the Web site does in its sweeping operations. As Starrkers notes, it has some sort of formula that has a good track record of identifying some percentage of the "spoiler" or "pump up" voting, and it's just stripping these out to the extent they can be identified.

I have enough stories that have returned to perfect "5" ratings so many times that I'm beginning to believe in reincarnation. Of course, over time, nothing really stays at a "5." There legitimately are readers who would/will honestly and thoughtfully consider any story less than perfect.

 

[fursmoke11]

Very informative Starkers and Sarah ; though such practice can be self defeating. For example, I read very very quickly...so will sometimes vote after a minute or two . That vote would then be eliminated?

And then if you don't get done up like a kipper by the prepubescent trolls you get stitched up by the H rating and the attention of the "authorities".

Reminds me of a joke told by UN peacekeepers from a country which shall be unamed about levelling up the votes in an election they were guarding against fraud by shooting one in ten of the likely (as they had been indoctrinated unfairly) communist voters lol!

Love your poem btw Sweetsubsarah.

oh and yes SR71 I realise that early day voting can give odd results but I knew something wasn't right as a story voted a 5 or a 4 can't legitimately be voted a 1 by someone else unless they are a biased troll; and I knew for some reason someone had hit it with a very low rating.

 

[Guest]

Very informative Starkers and Sarah ; though such practice can be self defeating. For example, I read very very quickly...so will sometimes vote after a minute or two . That vote would then be eliminated?

And then if you don't get done up like a kipper by the prepubescent trolls you get stitched up by the H rating and the attention of the "authorities".

Reminds me of a joke told by UN peacekeepers from a country which shall be unamed about levelling up the votes in an election they were guarding against fraud by shooting one in ten of the likely (as they had been indoctrinated unfairly) communist voters lol!

Love your poem btw Sweetsubsarah.

No, it is multiple votes that would be eliminated.

THAT, and fraudulent votes. Especially during contest entries you see votes disappear.

I suppose if the site owners see many 4 and 5 votes and then a few 1 votes those will be eliminated.



And thank you about the poem. It was written by The_Fool. He is amazing.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Alo a message to those whose stories may be the butt of prejudice. Always remember that whist everyone is entitled to their own opinion; not everyone's opinion has equal value. The sad thing is that the story which appeals to everyone means it has probably pandered to the lowest common denominator; in the same way that inoffensive weightless pop music makes money and better stuff, or more specialised cultural stuff (bangra or songwriters like PJ Harvey say), stays underground.
A sad reflection on democracy is we get the bland culture we deserve rather than the quality and richness of culture we crave.

I disagree, if everyone is allowed an opinion, then each opinion is of equal value. You can't just pick opinions that you decide are valid.

Just because a story or a writer is popular, it doesn't mean they have pandered to anything or anyone.

 

[sr71plt]

"as a story voted a 5 or a 4 can't legitimately be voted a 1 by someone else unless they are a biased troll"

Probably true, unless it was the 5 voter who was the biased troll.

But if you read discussion around the board on this issue, you'll read posts from several who will claim that one person's "5" certainly can legitimately be someone else's "1." I would, though, agree that a "1" should mean that the result was so bad that it had negative value to the writer even making the effort to write it--and to legitimately be given, I would hardly think that anyone else could honestly give it anything above a "3" if it's legitimately that bad. (Of course, if it's that bad, it probably shouldn't have survived the selection process here.) Certainly a well-written/told story that was on a topic that didn't arouse the reader should still be worth a higher vote than a "2," I think. In that case, it's the reader who should be reading something else and letting those who are aroused by this topic have their stories.

This board seems to be the most generous in voting of any I've posted to, though, so I'd wager there are as many knee-jerk 5 votes here as 1 votes.

 

[sr71plt]

"not everyone's opinion has equal value."

As DarkSide notes, this really won't fly on this board, at least in terms of ratings. The Web site has determined that everyone's opinion has equal value by the very nature of the voting system they set up. If you choose to play on the Web site, that particular reality has already been established for you.

(In terms of comments, it's true that not everyone's opinion has equal weight on this board--because the board gives the author the power to delete comments attached to their stories that the author wants to delete--just because the author wants to delete them. So, the bias on opinions delivered in comments here is strongly in favor of the author.)

 

[piltdownman]

I don't care very much about the votes. I get pleasure from writing for writings sake, escapism or whatever.. Low votes might spur a person on and make them try harder next time or they might be so discouraged they never post again. I don't think anyone could ever write anything that would please everyone... and it would probably be a mistake to try... especially if it meant you were only writing the kind of stories that you thought people would like... rather than the kind of stories you actually enjoy writing... But it's a personal thing... and that's just the way I look at it.

 

[cloudy]

It's unreasonable to think that a story with a rating of 5.0 after a few votes will actually stay at that rating indefinitely.

You can't please everyone, for one thing. And, although many complain about trolls - even me in the distant past - a vote of 1 is just as legitimate as a vote of 5. And, yes, everyone's opinion is as valid as yours, simply because they're only opinions. Deal.

You're not perfect. Don't expect your story to keep a perfect score.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

It's unreasonable to think that a story with a rating of 5.0 after a few votes will actually stay at that rating indefinitely.

You can't please everyone, for one thing. And, although many complain about trolls - even me in the distant past - a vote of 1 is just as legitimate as a vote of 5. And, yes, everyone's opinion is as valid as yours, simply because they're only opinions. Deal.

You're not perfect. Don't expect your story to keep a perfect score.

I don't know if a 1 vote given just to knock a story down is as legitimate as a 1 vote given for something that is truly poorly written. Just as a 5 vote given just because the writer is a pal is probably not as legitimate as a 5 given for an outstanding piece of writing.

 

[cloudy]

I don't know if a 1 vote given just to knock a story down is as legitimate as a 1 vote given for something that is truly poorly written. Just as a 5 vote given just because the writer is a pal is probably not as legitimate as a 5 given for an outstanding piece of writing.

True, but there's no way of knowing which is which, right? You take the good with the bad. *shrug*

It just makes no sense to complain about illegitimate 1 votes without complaining about the illegitimate 5 votes, as well.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

True, but there's no way of knowing which is which, right? You take the good with the bad. *shrug*

It just makes no sense to complain about illegitimate 1 votes without complaining about the illegitimate 5 votes, as well.

Exactly.

 

[sr71plt]

Yep, agree. Voting either way for some other agenda than assessing the story content and author's writing on that isolated story could be considered "illegitimate"--and this Web site tries to identify what it can of those votes and strip them out. There probably aren't too many story Web sites that make an effort to do this.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I don't write for a score, or for popularity, I write what I want to write. My advice to anyone is to just write, and don't pay too much attention to the voting.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Look dude,
Nobody really, truely understands how votes are cast on Lit. Yes, there are trolls who will trash your story. Yes, you will get friend votes with consistant 5's.

Frankly, I am much more interested in the low votes (2's and 3's) than the high votes (5's). Those are the people you truely reached an struck some kind of nerve with enough force for them to actually finish your story and dredge up some feeling from deep within themselves. I love those votes. They mean I did something right.

 

[sr71plt]

I sorta thought "2" and "3" votes were a myth. That they all were "1" or "5" votes according to the agenda of the moment or the immediate visceral reaction.

 

[fursmoke11]

You mostly are misunderstanding my point.

I have only just recently started here, and I wondred how it was possible. The answers are informative and I apreciate them .
I just wondered HOW it worked, rather than being critical of it; although I dare say if elections were run like that there would be uproar lol!

But I see that it is an attempt at getting a fair score; so fair enough.

On the point about opinion however, while I accept everyone is entitled to vote comment and have an opinion here on Literotica, some people opinions will have more worth.

Let us say for example Steven King, or a Professor of Literature turned up here and made a detailed critique...either bad or good...on one's story, then surely one would take more notice of that opinion than say, a half wit with a baised attitude who may have got upset by the content of a story and mouthed off? Or indeed, praised it ?

I also do not believe in censorship personally so would endeavour...unless it was abusive to the extent it breached civility or CoC here....to answer it even if it were critical. A short crit such as "crap" or " wonderful" is also little help. Better to have valid criticsim even if it is bad; otherwise you can't get better.

But also even an experts opinion can be invalid. I once wrote an autobiographical piece (not sex related) and it was published. A fellow author wrote that my character was "simply unbelievable". Yet it based on me and my experiences. I read his stories and what was presented as "gritty realiism" to me had very cliched characters. However, I did not retaliate by criticising him and merely presented him proof of the experiences I had had. Sometimes I guess truth can be stranger than fiction....but it didn't fit with the then current vogue for "Trainspotting" type scripts which his were.

And back to the general point I made....which was not suggesting that people be denied an opinion here, but an observation on culture.

What I was suggesting is that everyone believes that their opinion and taste is valid when it comes to Art, cinema, music etc.
I have an opinion on neuro surgery, but it hasn't the validity of that of a Surgeon, and his less than a neuro surgeon. You wouldn't let a cab driver operate on your brain but you allow him to criticise your painting or writing.
(yes yes I know.... it is just an example...many cab drivers would be experts in various fields)
Yet an Artist/Musician/wirter can regularly be judged in the modern age by anyone...and specially the lowest common denominator effect. This means that many quality movies...for example take "Pan's Labrynth", take a back seat to all action rubbish Hollywood blockbusters. Okay that did get high critical acclaim, but often many movies worthy of it do not.
Thus, only the simplest cultural expressions become available to the masses , and they as a result are shortchanged, and society decays. All because all our opinions have the same value. The other extreme manifestation of this is that culture can only be for the elite: thus high brow Art becomes the perogative of the initiated . So ironically, the reality of the sham that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mass marketing to pander to that opinion (reality tv etc) is a new class system. One culture for the masses, and one culture for the elite. Sad. Communism didn't even do that.

And yes; it also seems we live in a culture where something is "wicked" or "crap" hence the 1 or 5 votes rather than 2 3 and 4. Again sad. But while that occurs, maybe Literotica do have to use their policy to achieve fairness.

There could be literotic gems hiding on here but because they may be obscure they won't be understood; yet...and come on we all do it...if we find a story subjectively erotic we can sometimes mark it high because we are biased; or if it repulses us mark it low. So all I was trying to point out is that we should at least endeavour to be objective.

UPDATE: my current votes have fallen dramatically to 2 and 3 votes cast and have 5s and 4.5s back.

 

[mjl2010]

I sorta thought "2" and "3" votes were a myth. That they all were "1" or "5" votes according to the agenda of the moment or the immediate visceral reaction.

I've voted every score from 1 to 5. I try to be honest.

When I vote, this is what it means.

A 1 vote means the story was so poorly written I couldn't finish it. It has little or nothing to do with the subject. Just the writing.

A 2 vote means I managed to finish it by sticking with it. The subject may or may not have been to my liking. Again it doesn't matter, the writing was just plain poor.

A 3 vote means I thought the author could have spent more time on the writing. They had a good idea but they rushed through it. A good example is a story that moves way too fast. Eg: Girl picks up Guy in a bar in sentence one. Sentence two they go to her apartment. Sentence three... you get the picture. If you're gonna write. Then write. Paragraphs so long you scroll twice to read them are another thing. One or two might get you a four vote, but the whole story probably means a three.

A 4 vote means that not only did I like the story idea, but the author put the time in to develop both the story and the characters. The paragraphs weren't so long I couldn't read them. They had reasonable grammar and spelling. Few things jumped out at me as flaws.

A 5 vote means I loved the story. The author obviously put some effort into it, had well developed characters and knew proper grammar, punctuation and spelling. No big story flaws or obvious problems.

If I open a story to read it and can't get past the first scroll, I just don't vote. What really bugs me is there are stories here that are so poorly written it's next to impossible to follow them and they have good scores. Go figure.

Anyway, that's how I vote. Oh and if someone asks for feedback here, I try to give it and be nice. I've even read gay male stuff which is a total turn-off for me and judged the writing. So, I wonder if anyone else uses any sort of criteria when voting besides "it got me hard" or "it got me wet."



MJL

 

[sr71plt]

That's very conscientious of you, mjl2010; am not going to knock that. I don't think I've ever given a "1" myself--or even a "2" for that matter. If I don't reach the end of the story, I don't vote at all--because I don't assess without giving the author his/her full shot. I suppose I'd give a "1" if I thought the writer was making fun of the reader on top of everything else going wrong with the story, but if I thought it was at least a genuine effort to be creative, I'd go higher than a "1." I'd have to recognize the effort that was made. I must admit, though, that I don't do much reading here--I don't want to be picking up anyone else's style and/or ideas, even unconsciously, and writing the stories takes up most any time I have to devote to erotica. Writing and editing is what I also do in my "other" life now.

I find the voting system here limits me too much too on the stories I do read. If I don't hit the top and give it a full "5," I'm damaging its chances to go hot (and I do believe that the hot rating means something to the author--I do believe readers are more prone to read a hot story than one that doesn't have this designation). I'd give a whole lot fewer "5s" if there was another rating I could give it and still say it was "hot," even if not perfect in every category.

 

[Darkniciad]

I tend not to vote at all unless I can give something a four or a five, for pretty much the same reasons as sr71plt, especially if it's outside the categories I'm fond of. If it's only worth a one or a two, I'm not going to make it down to the voting form unless asked to read it. Even then, I still don't vote, I just offer the requestion feedback. I've given a very few threes, most of those during contests where I try to vote on every story when I can squeeze out the time.

I have a feeling that this is the reason contest stories trend a little lower than most non-contest stories as much as the troll target the visibility puts on them. More people will vote because of the minimum vote requirement to qualify.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Changed my voting philosophy

Keeping in mind that I write and do little reading, I have voted low a couple of times. And then I felt badly about it, realizing after-the-fact, first-hand that writing takes effort. You know, formulating an idea, developing characters, etc. In some cases chasing down an editor... Or even having the balls to submit when you know it's not up to par with other stories.

Some have talent... some don't. Instead of laughing at the guy/gal that can't keep up, help him/her along!

So my revised scale is this. First off, I decided I won't vote in a contest I am participating in (to a story I'm striving to beat).

3 - Hey, the writer has tried to write, but it really kinda sucks, many errors and problems in the plot, etc. But TELL THEM in a feedback, allowing them a chance to improve.

4 - Wow, either very good writing lacking editing, or very good editing lacking writing, and TELL THEM in a feedback.

5 - Excellent! Very good story, very good form (a couple of errors are acceptable, no editor is perfect). AND TELL THEM IN A FEEDBACK!

The reason for my revised scale... I tout myself as an editor/mentor. I do teach (professionally, at the adult level). I prefer to encourage and foster, not slam, which accomplishes nothing. And I'll comment as well.

Again, I read very little, but I have been randomly selecting stories as time allows. Just two so far, but if time allows, maybe more. And I vote according to the scale, AND PROVIDE FEEDBACK!

It's in my nature to teach and nurture. I think more of us are capable of this.

<stepping off soap box>