Powell retrieves testicles from cold storage

[shereads]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-06/11/content_6225666.htm

 

[rgraham666]

Better late than never, I suppose.

 

[3113]

Better late than never, I suppose.

Seems like too little, too late to me. He's just another rat jumping ship.

 

[flavortang]

I saw that Tim Russert interview. I personally don't think that Powell is a guilty party. I think he was genuinely misled by the people who were hellbent on going to war, regardless of the evidence.

 

[WRJames]

I saw that Tim Russert interview. I personally don't think that Powell is a guilty party. I think he was genuinely misled by the people who were hellbent on going to war, regardless of the evidence.

How could he be who he is and be misled? The Russians were screaming at us that we were wrong. The French were screaming at us that we were wrong. Remember all the patriotic outrage at France because they had the guts to tell us we were full of shit? The UN inspectors were saying there was no evidence to backup the claims of WMD. Assuming Colin Powell listened to anyone except his own advisors, he had to know his case was very, very shaky. He was "just following orders" and look where it got us.

 

[flavortang]

I think his early resignation means that he did everything he could within his power to avoid conflict but when he saw that his efforts were going for nothing, he had no choice but to give his support.

After he knew that the truth was coming out, he could feel justified to resign, knowing that the President and those close within those circles were basically thinking "Powell told us so.". I'm not saying the guy is 100% innocent. There's no way to know one way or the other, but he was the one put out there to sell the evidence and I think he was offered up because the public trusted him so much.
They even had George Tenet sit behind him in those Congressional conferences where he made his presentations.

I think he was used a bit, but there's no telling how much information he knew and how much was withheld from him.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Cute thread title. Odd source for the news.

I agree with 3.

I think the Guantanamo situation is a lot less manichean and a lot more ambiguous than the hard left pretends. Question: Is Prez Hil or Bar really gonna take the political risk of just opening the gates and giving a bus ticket to individuals who are sworn to kill and maim as many Americans as possible? More likley they'll try to "slick" it by closing the facility, giving a handful their bus ticket, and hiding the rest in various lower profile hidey-holes. Don't ask me what the solution is, I'm just saying it's not as black/white an issue as you all like to pretend.

 

[Jubal_Harshaw]

Meanwhile, Canada is trying to remember wher they left their testicles.


Psssst.... It was Paris.

 

[3113]

I'm just saying it's not as black/white an issue as you all like to pretend.

No, but it is a mess that's going to come back to haunt us. Too bad the folks who created the mess aren't going to be the ones cleaning it up or paying for it.

As for black and white, it's not about that. It's about logic and science--which our Administration refuses to listen to. Reports using science and experiments have proven that torture isn't very effective...so why do it? Especially if it makes everyone (1) outraged at you and willing to believe the "evil" guys are right in trying to rid the world of you, (2) makes your allies give you the cold shoulder, (3) makes your own people question and fear their government, (4) makes even your own generals question their government.

And it goes on from there. Keeping people jailed without trail, interrogating them for years on end, keeping them out of touch from ANYONE, the ones you release, the "Harmless ones" coming out with horror stories....Is ANY of this doing us ANY good?

So black/white hasn't anything to do with it. This is NOT about jailing evil doers and keeping our country safe. It's about those in charge trying to do a moral-high-ground-tap-dance while employing methods common to despots and tyrants. And then being shocked, shocked, shocked when the courts say they can't do it and presumably descent men like Powell express dismay over it all.

I don't know what Pres. Hil or Bar will do about it--but if they've got any sense at all, they'll know they can't keep things going as is. Either bring the dangerous folk forward, prove they're a danger and keep them jailed (or kill 'em)--or prove them harmless and release them, but whatever they do, it will be, like Powell's objection here, too little too late. Because this gulag, along with other things, has already ruined our reputation as a nation...likely for decades.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

3, you make a lot of good sense in this thread, but I don't really like the dumbing down of what constitutes "torture" that has been created for political purposes since 2001 To me (and to our adversaries) torture means things like the rack, bamboo shoots under finger nails, and the Chinese water torture. I just don't lose much sleep over psychological interrogation techniques like sleep deprivation or certain psyche games when used to get timely info that can save American lives or help us win battles. If any American government authorized real torture I would be out marching with you, but the only real torture I can see in this go-round is to the language.

 

[cantdog]

Cute thread title. Odd source for the news.

I agree with 3.

I think the Guantanamo situation is a lot less manichean and a lot more ambiguous than the hard left pretends. Question: Is Prez Hil or Bar really gonna take the political risk of just opening the gates and giving a bus ticket to individuals who are sworn to kill and maim as many Americans as possible? More likley they'll try to "slick" it by closing the facility, giving a handful their bus ticket, and hiding the rest in various lower profile hidey-holes. Don't ask me what the solution is, I'm just saying it's not as black/white an issue as you all like to pretend.

Amnesty issued a report this year, not long ago. It sucks pretty bad.

 

[shereads]

I saw that Tim Russert interview. I personally don't think that Powell is a guilty party. I think he was genuinely misled by the people who were hellbent on going to war, regardless of the evidence.

I'd like to agree, but can't dismiss the account in Richard Clark's book (credited to a Powell aide) of Powell's frustration with the intelligence he was about to present to the U.N. as evidence of WMD. The aide has him tossing the folder on his desk, saying "This is bullshit."

As a previous poster points out, Powell was too close to the source to be passively misled. He wasn't exactly an insider - the Bush-Cheney inner circle was limited to people who didn't challenge the president, and Powell had done his share of that - but he was close enough to the center to know the evidence for WMD was less than credible.

I think he was being a good soldier. Loyal to his rank, even went it meant betraying his own common sense and perhaps his conscience, as well. Of all the burdens for a former soldier to have on his conscience, helping sell a futile, avoidable war must be a bitch.

 

[Stella_Omega]

3, you make a lot of good sense in this thread, but I don't really like the dumbing down of what constitutes "torture" that has been created for political purposes since 2001 To me (and to our adversaries) torture means things like the rack, bamboo shoots under finger nails, and the Chinese water torture. I just don't lose much sleep over psychological interrogation techniques like sleep deprivation or certain psyche games when used to get timely info that can save American lives or help us win battles. If any American government authorized real torture I would be out marching with you, but the only real torture I can see in this go-round is to the language.

I assume you're using these three semi-outmoded methods only for rhetoric's sake, to intimate that physical pain-creating methods are the only methods that should be dignified with the term torture.

a) I disagree with you, and

b) Do you really think our government isn't using pain methods? Why do you think not?

 

[shereads]

Remember all the patriotic outrage at France because they had the guts to tell us we were full of shit?

Yes. But the outrage regarding their fries was right on the money, as it turns out. I just watched the documentary, "Supersize Me," and have sworn off freedom fries.

 

[shereads]

b) Do you really think our government isn't using pain methods? Why do you think not?

Cheney has condoned "water boarding" and I have to admit, it looks like fun when my nephew does it at the beach.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I assume you're using these three semi-outmoded methods only for rhetoric's sake, to intimate that physical pain-creating methods are the only methods that should be dignified with the term torture.

a) I disagree with you, and

b) Do you really think our government isn't using pain methods? Why do you think not?

I think we are too sophisticated, and I know that someone would squeal and they would get in big trouble. The American public won't accept real pain torture by our government, because we believe that we are the good guys, that that would mean that we are not. It would be a betrayal of our self-identity. The administration and the military know that, so not only do they not use those methods, they make damned sure that no psychotic guards are systematically doing so. Abu Graib was an aberration that occurred in the midst of a rather chaotic environment; Guantanamo is not at all chaotic.

The American people sense that my analysis here is correct, and that is why all the fulminations of the left on this issue have not been credible and not stirred the public. Amnesty International is viewed as very compromised - if an American gives a prisoner a dirty look it's torture, but if some pissant dictator with a leftist line of patter uses the real thing it's ignored. I know that description is an exageration, but there's a germ of truth to it, and it accurately describes the popular perception. Credibility once compromised is not easily regained, and both AA and the American left have compromised cred on this issue.

 

[shereads]

Cute thread title.

Why, thank you. I'd like to take full credit, but the thread title was inspired by an old Doonesbury strip in which Bush I "put his manhood in a blind trust" while serving as Reagan's v.p.

Odd source for the news.

Isn't it? I did a google search for the Powell story, and referenced the first link that came up. Their account is essentially the same as stateside reports of the same interview - except the Fox News one, which refers to Powell as "a polite, well-groomed colored man" who left Bush's employ "after a dispute over a pan of corn pone."

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Cheney has condoned "water boarding" and I have to admit, it looks like fun when my nephew does it at the beach.

Related to my last post, that is probably over the line for most people, but not so far that they would not queasily accept it if convinced that it was to acquire timely info that would save lives.

BTW, I'm describing my view of the perceptions and judgements of the public here (and low salience of the issue suggests that I am on target), so there is no need to make the case as to why this or that techique is not OK, or that the "timely lifesaving info" line is BS, etc.

 

[Edward Teach]

Why, thank you. I'd like to take full credit, but the thread title was inspired by an old Doonesbury strip in which Bush I "put his manhood in a blind trust" while serving as Reagan's v.p.


Isn't it? I did a google search for the Powell story, and referenced the first link that came up. Their account is essentially the same as stateside reports of the same interview - except the Fox News one, which refers to Powell as "a polite, well-groomed colored man" who left Bush's employ "after a dispute over a pan of corn pone."

Coke spew

 

[Guest]

The American people sense that my analysis here is correct, and that is why all the fulminations of the left on this issue have not been credible and not stirred the public.

This is an amazing statement.

 

[Edward Teach]

This is an amazing statement.

You really don't have anything to do tonight, do you.

 

[Guest]

You really don't have anything to do tonight, do you.

I was going to say the same thing about you, Teach.

 

[Edward Teach]

They have this sound chamber at Gitmo. Completely isolated. They can place you in there, and bombard you with sounds. Vary the timing, intensity, pitch, etc.
Drives a person insane within 24 hours.

And, of course they can increase the volume to eardrum bursting levels. Excruciationgly painful.

They use that shit all the time.

 

[Edward Teach]

I was going to say the same thing about you, Teach.

You look good.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think we are too sophisticated, and I know that someone would squeal and they would get in big trouble. The American public won't accept real pain torture by our government, because we believe that we are the good guys, that that would mean that we are not. It would be a betrayal of our self-identity. The administration and the military know that, so not only do they not use those methods, they make damned sure that no psychotic guards are systematically doing so. Abu Graib was an aberration that occurred in the midst of a rather chaotic environment; Guantanamo is not at all chaotic.

The American people sense that my analysis here is correct, and that is why all the fulminations of the left on this issue have not been credible and not stirred the public. Amnesty International is viewed as very compromised - if an American gives a prisoner a dirty look it's torture, but if some pissant dictator with a leftist line of patter uses the real thing it's ignored. I know that description is an exageration, but there's a germ of truth to it, and it accurately describes the popular perception. Credibility once compromised is not easily regained, and both AA and the American left have compromised cred on this issue.

Rush Limbaugh is of the opinion that the left hates Bush because he's tall and handsome and they're not...

There might be a germ of truth to that, as well!