Possible punctuation, of a too long sentence?

[ellynei]

I was self-editing an old chapter of mine, fixing punctuation and phrasing because my understanding of those things has increased since last I self-edited it.

This paragraph bugs me though, it caused me to stop and come here to ask advice.

"Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through so hard times then he could use that knowledge to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out fast and what he needed to leave be for a while."

That is a very long sentence...

The book is written with an all-knowing narrator, so I wish to retain details such as 'Baglian expected', making a briefer wording difficult for me to find.

I kind of like the current wording, but a sentence of this length... It can't read well can it?

Is there any way to punctuate it better, so it retains current (or near current) wording and meaning?

It would be very helpful if someone could give me some suggestions on that particular overgrown sentence. This sentence is a good example of a problem I often have when trying to express causality chains in writing. Maybe if I can get help with this one I can learn something which I can use in similar situations.


Help please

Ellynei

 

[michchick98]

I was self-editing an old chapter of mine, fixing punctuation and phrasing because my understanding of those things has increased since last I self-edited it.

This paragraph bugs me though, it caused me to stop and come here to ask advice.

"Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through so hard times then he could use that knowledge to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out fast and what he needed to leave be for a while."

That is a very long sentence...

The book is written with an all-knowing narrator, so I wish to retain details such as 'Baglian expected', making a briefer wording difficult for me to find.

I kind of like the current wording, but a sentence of this length... It can't read well can it?

Is there any way to punctuate it better, so it retains current (or near current) wording and meaning?

It would be very helpful if someone could give me some suggestions on that particular overgrown sentence. This sentence is a good example of a problem I often have when trying to express causality chains in writing. Maybe if I can get help with this one I can learn something which I can use in similar situations.


Help please

Ellynei

If I were editing, this is how I would punctuate the sentence:

"Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through so hard times, then he could use that knowledge to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out fast, and what he needed to leave be for a while."

Where it's underlined, I've added commas. Beyond that, I don't know what else I would do. Maybe somehow break it up into two sentences?

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with Michchick's first comma suggestion, but, technically, the second gives the reader a false impression another independent clause is expected and they may stop to look for a missing subject and verb.

So, if one sentence:

"Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through so hard times, then he could use that knowledge to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out fast and what he needed to leave be for a while."

If you want to tweak the sentence a bit:

"Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through so["such" rather than "so"] hard times, then[delete "then" as superfluous] he could use that knowledge to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out[Don't understand "peel out" in this context] fast and what he needed to leave be for a while."

And, if you wanted to break into multiple sentences:

"Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through so hard times, he could use that knowledge. He could use it to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out fast and what he needed to leave be for a while."

 

[ellynei]

Thanks michchick98.

Thanks sr71plt.

I would fear the comma before "and" too; I tend to regularly use the "Independent thingy, and independent thingy." Where it could have been "Independent thingy. Independent thingy." So a reader would very likely expect a grammatically complete context in it (like sr71plt said.)


The "what" refers to obstructive behavioural and cognitive habits - described in the previous paragraph which I haven't quoted here. With "peel out" is meant "make her cease the habit" "remove the habit from her".

(larger context quote:
"He began a further analysis of her mind, this time his priority was to estimate how strictly he could push her into his training without risk of causing mental damage in her. To this end he also investigated what had made her able to survive the hardships of her last five years.

When training students in the past, Baglian had many times peeled several behavioural habits out of them, both habits of thought and habits of action. It was very important, however, to not rip away even obstructive habits without consideration.

Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through so hard times then he could use that knowledge to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out fast and what he needed to leave be for a while."
quote end.)

I hope "peel out" is understandable in this context?


I don't understand why you would replace "so" with "such" here.

so hard times --- such hard times

(Such hardships she endured, those times were so hard. Such hard times he would never wish upon anyone.)

I think my head is gonna explode

Is it an idiom thingy?

'so hard times' I meant 'times that were very hard'


Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through such hard times, he could use that knowledge to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out fast and what he needed to leave be for a while.


Baglian expected that gaining an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through such hard times could be useful. He estimated such knowledge would aid his analysis of what it would be safe to peel out fast and what he needed to leave be for a while.


Aaargh. My mind is overheating.

Thanks michchick98 and thanks sr71plt, was very nice of you two. I think I need to rest my head a little and look at it with fresh eyes later.

 

[sr71plt]

'so hard times' I meant 'times that were very hard'

I think "so hard times" must of a regional idiom of wherever you are. I've never encountered that usage before in several decades of editing.

 

[ellynei]

Most likely not an idiom at all.

I think the expression I was thinking of that got me down that track was.

"This is so hard."

Giving me 'so hard' on the brain.

I guess if you want to say 'so hard' in general, you need to say.

This was so hard that 'something'.

Right?

These were so hard times that 'something'. And even then i guess it would be "...times so hard that 'something' "


So I think I understand the so -> such correction now.


I could also have written 'that hard times'. Right? if wanting to refer back to a previous description or inferral of the hardships?

Or: 'times that hard' to create and inferral that the times had been hard. Right?


So hard on my brain. This is soooo hard.

I know, I know. It is annoying when someone goes "It's so hard," isn't it?

(Unless, I'm guessing, it is done to a guy by a person of his preferred gender of contact in a kneeling position looking up at him with admiring eyes. Or something like that...)


Sorry, I'm dense. Thanks for being nice about it


Sorry for the slow "getting back to thread" on my part too, got carried away with creative writing. Time and place disappeared. Well, our time and place that is.

Weeeeee, what a rush

Sadly it blew my brain completely, so right now I really can't work on that horror sentence

Thanks again

 

[Shwenn]

double post

 

[Shwenn]

"Baglian expected that if he gained an understanding of how Student Majgen had managed to stay healthy through so hard times then he could use that knowledge to estimate what it would be safe for him to peel out fast and what he needed to leave be for a while."

Consider this because it is easier to read:

Baglian expected that, if he learned how Student Majgen stayed healthy through hard times, he could estimate what he could peel out fast and what he should leave be for a while.

A good rule of thumb is, if you can say it with less words, say it with less words.

 

[Shwenn]

triple post.

 

[ellynei]

Baglian expected that, if he learned how Student Majgen stayed healthy through hard times, he could estimate what he could peel out fast and what he should leave be for a while.

Oh, I love this rewrite.

Why can't I do that unaided, why, why, why! Nevermind why I can't, I'll try to focus more on learning to do it, rather than focusing on being unable to.

Thanks so much Shween.

 

[Shwenn]

Oh, I love this rewrite.

Why can't I do that unaided, why, why, why! Nevermind why I can't, I'll try to focus more on learning to do it, rather than focusing on being unable to.

Thanks so much Shween.

It is very difficult. It's exactly the sort of thing that people have no idea how hard it is. Your question tells me you think I just have an eye for it. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are some serious blood, sweat and tears behind this ability of mine.

And it's easier to do it to other people's stuff. We get this weird attachment to our own words, even when they serve no purpose but to bloat our prose.

Just practice. And, when you read, really pay attention to how clean and efficient a good writer's sentences are.

 

[ellynei]

It is very difficult. It's exactly the sort of thing that people have no idea how hard it is. Your question tells me you think I just have an eye for it. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are some serious blood, sweat and tears behind this ability of mine.

And it's easier to do it to other people's stuff. We get this weird attachment to our own words, even when they serve no purpose but to bloat our prose.

Just practice. And, when you read, really pay attention to how clean and efficient a good writer's sentences are.

It is comforting that you say it is a matter of practice and hard work It strengthens my hope that one day I can learn to do it

I did have a thought that maybe some people just have that skill, without working for it.


Thanks again