Poor Boy Scouts

[voluptuary_manque]

I jokingly suggested donating a plaque dedicating the new shithouses at the park to those two.

Appropriate, appropriate. *nods sagely*

 

[3113]

Religious organizations provide an overwhelming percentage of the meeting places and funding for the BSA. The plain and simple truth is that they cannot go against the dominant opinion of what is nearly their only source of support.

Take away the churches in the U.S., and scouting more or less ceases to exist. The few places where it could survive on other support ( primarily on the east and west coast ) could not sustain the organization, and it would fail.

Yet Scouting allows members to be pagans. Worshipers of many gods. Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians. A kid could say they believe that they, themselves are god, and that would pass--they're not an atheist. Hell, if I had kids and they said, "We're not atheists, we worship the devil" by the scout rules they'd be let in as they're not atheists and those are the only ones not allowed in.

So tell me, how is it that the churches allow scouts to be anything other than good Christians? Is it just that they hope that if all those scouts use church places they'll naturally turn into Christians? If so, I think it's time for scouting to stop existing, as it means they've become yet another branch of evangelical fascism.

 

[3113]

In at least two of the incidents that I know about, the original drive for the project was started by a scout organizing for the community service project necessary to advance to Eagle. One managed to complete his requirements, but the other had to start all over after several weeks of personal footwork because two people complained about church and state issues over the youth center, cleaning a public park, landscaping, and finding funding for new equipment.

http://bestsmileys.com/crying/2.gif

I'm sure there were people who suffered terribly when those blacks boycotted the buses. Gosh, those black folks. Didn't they realize how they were inconveniencing people, and ruining favorite lunch spots by sitting at the counter? And women wanting equal pay and equal rights--they really ruined a nice world didn't they? And, ya know, people say Dr. Joseph Mengele was one of the nicest people in the world. A real Christian neighbor, great with kids. Does it really matter that he wasn't all that kind to Jews?

The Scouts know this shit will come up again and again, and it's time they worked to make sure that they became a private club that can have its rules and not keep getting in this mess again and again. Don't blame the messenger for pointing out the law to them, and don't, for fuck's sake, blame people who are and have been discriminated against far worst than this poor, poor little boy who just wanted to make eagle and worked so hard for it.

I've no tears to shed for the scouts and no outrage left for their woes either. They've money, support, and good white christians in power and supreme courts to take care of them. I've plenty tears to shed and plenty of outrage for people who keep getting fucked over by bigots and bigotry. If the scouts want to exclude, let them go private and exclude. If they get most of their funding from the churches, then let them get all their funding from those churches, all their camping and wilderness lands from the churches too, let them do all their good deeds for the churches. And they can allow in only those that the churches want them to.

Win-win for everyone. Except all those excluded who always lose, but at least they still get to roam the public parks, vote, ride the buses and eat at the lunch counters...for now.

 

[Darkniciad]

And, ya know, people say Dr. Joseph Mengele was one of the nicest people in the world. A real Christian neighbor, great with kids. Does it really matter that he wasn't all that kind to Jews?

Yeah, that's an appropriate comparison. Scouting and horrific medical experiments on Jews. I don't see how I missed the connection before.

Ladies and gentlemen, Godwin's Law in action.

Have a nice day.

 

[3113]

Yeah, that's an appropriate comparison. Scouting and horrific medical experiments on Jews. I don't see how I missed the connection before.

Fair enough. Let's try this, using your own example with a couple of changes:

"In at least two of the incidents that I know about, the original drive for the project was started by a scout organizing for the community service project necessary to advance to Eagle. One managed to complete his requirements, but the other had to start all over after several weeks of personal footwork because the NAACP complained about the fact that the youth center discriminated against children of color....The NAACP then protested in front of the scouts....and that quite frankly honked me off, big time. Thankfully, the new local authorities, members of the local KKK, ignored them. The NAACP had a year to organize their own fundraisers and people to do the work, but they were too busy trying to sit at the front of the bus and eating at lunch counters, usually on a weekly basis...."

Now let me ask you, if this was the case, as outlined above, would you still think the scouts were being wronged? All kinds of people do wonderful things. There were plenty of men who were Eagle scouts and cleaning up parks who also joined the KKK. Nazi youth, I'm sure, were as good as any scouts in being wonderful, lawful kids.

My point is: If you let people who do wonderful things for people get off with being bigots, then you head toward a slippery slope. One where so long as the bigots do good deeds, you'll let 'em off scott free. It seems trivial and mean to protest so to you, but it doesn't seem so to anyone who's on the other side of that bigotry. And if you were, I don't think you'd be shaking your head saying that these people are "tossing out the baby with the bathwater."

How badly have you, personally, been discriminated against for your race, religion or sexual orientation? Imagine that you'd been discriminated in that way every day your whole life long. And now imagine someone telling you, "How could you stop that organization that discriminates against you from cleaning up the park! Why do you keep protesting them?" Hello? Hint: It's not the protesters. It's the organization that needs to make up its mind what it wants to do. Once again, scouting KNOWS it discriminates and it KNOWS there are protests and challenges about this when it gets public funding. So let is ask for funding by churches and private organizations to clean up parks and other public works. Then it can discriminate all it likes.

 

[cantdog]

They try and try to serve the community and those darn atheists and gays just won't let 'em. Oh, wait...maybe because they won't let the gays or atheists join their exclusive club

Full article here.

This happens over and over again and I wish someone would just put an end to it. If the Scouts want to exclude those who don't believe in god or are gay, that's fine. Like any "Church" or other private club they can do that. But that means they have to obey the rules of such exclusive clubs/churches. They can't be supported by the state or given favor by the state over others who would, like the state, have to be inclusive of all by law.

I don't give a fuck how wonderful, helpful, marvelous, or character building the organization has been in the past or still is, they can't have it both ways. Either they follow the law or they don't, and if they don't then they don't get any special favors.

So it would be, in an ideal world. I have almost decided I love you, 3113. You have an incisive mind.

And the scouts have not been particularly marvelous. They're a glorified gun club in most of the U.S.

 

[cantdog]

You see that is where we differ. I believe that we DO get a say. If getting that say means that we need to go to court so that we are heard, fine. That is why the courts are there.

As far as toning it down? I guess you need to live it to understand why that isn't an acceptable alternative. Shouting at people that wish we'd just shut up and go back into the "closet" like good little queers is often the only way of getting their attention. Your an ex-military guy, so I'm sure you understand multiple / varied attacks, hmmm? BTW, education only works on people when you have their attention.

P.S. I'm no longer willing to "wait for them to die" to get my rights as a human being. Far as I'm concerned any non-violent means available can / should / will be used to get what we should have always had from the beginning.

Damn straight. I'm nearly in love with you, as well. I stand foursquare with the human god damn being. These religious assholes can bloody well stand in line.

 

[cantdog]

So much hate and intolerance!

Fuck off. Cheerfully, of course. with no hate nor any intolerance. If you were gay you would surely have wearied by now of the longsanding tolerance for this kind of horse shit.

 

[cantdog]

Yeah, that's an appropriate comparison. Scouting and horrific medical experiments on Jews. I don't see how I missed the connection before.

Ladies and gentlemen, Godwin's Law in action.

Have a nice day.

You're an asshole, Dark. I've always suspected it but now here's the proof. Have a nice motherfuckin life.

 

[cantdog]

Fair enough. Let's try this, using your own example with a couple of changes:

"In at least two of the incidents that I know about, the original drive for the project was started by a scout organizing for the community service project necessary to advance to Eagle. One managed to complete his requirements, but the other had to start all over after several weeks of personal footwork because the NAACP complained about the fact that the youth center discriminated against children of color....The NAACP then protested in front of the scouts....and that quite frankly honked me off, big time. Thankfully, the new local authorities, members of the local KKK, ignored them. The NAACP had a year to organize their own fundraisers and people to do the work, but they were too busy trying to sit at the front of the bus and eating at lunch counters, usually on a weekly basis...."

Now let me ask you, if this was the case, as outlined above, would you still think the scouts were being wronged? All kinds of people do wonderful things. There were plenty of men who were Eagle scouts and cleaning up parks who also joined the KKK. Nazi youth, I'm sure, were as good as any scouts in being wonderful, lawful kids.

My point is: If you let people who do wonderful things for people get off with being bigots, then you head toward a slippery slope. One where so long as the bigots do good deeds, you'll let 'em off scott free. It seems trivial and mean to protest so to you, but it doesn't seem so to anyone who's on the other side of that bigotry. And if you were, I don't think you'd be shaking your head saying that these people are "tossing out the baby with the bathwater."

How badly have you, personally, been discriminated against for your race, religion or sexual orientation? Imagine that you'd been discriminated in that way every day your whole life long. And now imagine someone telling you, "How could you stop that organization that discriminates against you from cleaning up the park! Why do you keep protesting them?" Hello? Hint: It's not the protesters. It's the organization that needs to make up its mind what it wants to do. Once again, scouting KNOWS it discriminates and it KNOWS there are protests and challenges about this when it gets public funding. So let is ask for funding by churches and private organizations to clean up parks and other public works. Then it can discriminate all it likes.

The Scouts are not worthy of the special status they enjoy, so long as they continue to be a bigoted and discriminatory club. Well said, 3113!

 

[Darkniciad]

"In at least two of the incidents that I know about, the original drive for the project was started by a scout organizing for the community service project necessary to advance to Eagle. One managed to complete his requirements, but the other had to start all over after several weeks of personal footwork because the NAACP complained about the fact that the youth center discriminated against children of color....The NAACP then protested in front of the scouts....and that quite frankly honked me off, big time. Thankfully, the new local authorities, members of the local KKK, ignored them. The NAACP had a year to organize their own fundraisers and people to do the work, but they were too busy trying to sit at the front of the bus and eating at lunch counters, usually on a weekly basis...."

So, we've moved one tick down the scale of comparisons from horrific Nazi medical experiments to the KKK setting bombs, burning churches, lynching black people, dragging them behind cars...

Yep, that's much closer.

Even removing the apples to arsenic comparison, your premise is still nothing resembling reality. In the two situations I cite, the scouts gained no special benefits. No extra access. No monetary gain. No government funding ( save that the long abandoned, and now once again abandoned building is owned by the city, in the case of the youth center. ) Not even a plaque or a poster recognizing the scouts as the driving force behind the opening of the youth center or the original plan to bring the park back to life.

Nothing.

It was on public land, and the two athiest loudmouth prickfucks used that ( and their status as the largest donors to political figures in the area ) to ram their opinions down everybody else's throat.

Here's one for you. If the athiests were running the facility, and the Boy Scouts said that it made them uncomfortable to go there, is that the same thing?

You're an asshole, Dark. I've always suspected it but now here's the proof. Have a nice motherfuckin life.

You'll have to pardon me if something in my wiring doesn't allow me to be assimilated in the collective. I have this defective process called thinking that keeps me from mindlessly wasting bandwidth to multi-post things like "Me too" and "What she said -- you suck"

You want asshole, I can do asshole. It's easy when there are so many fine examples to copy.

 

[Safe_Bet]

So, we've moved one tick down the scale of comparisons from horrific Nazi medical experiments to the KKK setting bombs, burning churches, lynching black people, dragging them behind cars...

Yep, that's much closer.

Even removing the apples to arsenic comparison, your premise is still nothing resembling reality. In the two situations I cite, the scouts gained no special benefits. No extra access. No monetary gain. No government funding ( save that the long abandoned, and now once again abandoned building is owned by the city, in the case of the youth center. ) Not even a plaque or a poster recognizing the scouts as the driving force behind the opening of the youth center or the original plan to bring the park back to life.

Nothing.

It was on public land, and the two athiest loudmouth prickfucks used that ( and their status as the largest donors to political figures in the area ) to ram their opinions down everybody else's throat.

Here's one for you. If the athiests were running the facility, and the Boy Scouts said that it made them uncomfortable to go there, is that the same thing?



You'll have to pardon me if something in my wiring doesn't allow me to be assimilated in the collective. I have this defective process called thinking that keeps me from mindlessly wasting bandwidth to multi-post things like "Me too" and "What she said -- you suck"

You want asshole, I can do asshole. It's easy when there are so many fine examples to copy.

Surely you aren't trying to say that the BSA isn't anti-gay / non-religious? Of course they are. Even the United Way is cutting off their funding because of that.

As to your question: Damn straight. If ANY organization had a policy of actively and willingly discriminating against ANYBODY they should be banned from operating publically owned facilities. The "discomfort" (what a nice sanitary word for blantant bigotry) comes from being FORCED to associate with those who are admittedly and openly discriminating against others. It's not like they try to hide it - they freely admit that they are discriminatory - and if you discriminate you DO NOT GET TO RECEIVE PUBLIC FUNDING OR SUPPORT!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No shoes, no shirt, no service.

The Scouts have a legal right to set whatever membership standards they want, juts like every other organization does. If you walk in the door without a coat and tie, theyre not obligated to seat you.

The Scouts also have a right to use public services and facilities, just like everyone else does.

What they arent entitled to is tax dollars. But this where it gets sticky. If you cut off money to the Scouts because they discriminate, shouldnt we cut off tax money to organizations that limit their services to gays or battered women or the elderly? I mean, a local medical clinic treats no one younger than 55, yet they get tax money. Try and get in the spouse abuse shelter if youre male.

No. The real issue is: Faggots and atheists want their tickets punched by the Scouts.

 

[Darkniciad]

Surely you aren't trying to say that the BSA isn't anti-gay / non-religious? Of course they are.

And that means that Nazis or the KKK are perfectly sensible comparisons?

For the record, the 501c3 status should be revoked, as should the Congressional recognition. That's going to happen, and if the national council isn't making efforts to secure the necessary funding from churches and donations while fighting a rear-guard to buy time, then shame on them. They already have the right spin to coax it out of them by fighting the legal battles.

As I said, scouting wouldn't survive without the backing of the churches in the U.S.

Unfortunately, that also means that scouting as we know it probably won't survive, anyway. Once the churches have complete control of the purse strings, it's going to go totally fundie, and utterly alien to the reality of what the scouts are, if you actually look into the individual troops/members, as opposed to the national platform.

Just like any large organization, it's corrupt. The individual pieces are good and bad, but once you lump them all together, the shit rises to the top.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DARKINCIAD

Anyone familiar with the KKK knows theyre idiots, the Special Olympics of terrorists.

Efforts to stain the Boy Scouts because they wont punch your Gay or Atheist ticket wont work, because no one with any brains believes the Scouts are unAmerican. Most Americans dont care for gays or atheists. The Scouts embarrass the liberals, but most Americans dont give a shit. Americans dont want to associate with groups who present themselves as carnival freaks, and the Scouts are no different.