'Politically correct' language query.

[farfromcd]

Hello chaps and chapesses, first time posting in the forums, looking for some advice. Coming, as I do, from a rather parochial area I'd like to check if a word I wish to use is considered offensive - it would be the last thing I would wish and apologise in advance if it is (because obviously I will have to include it in this post!)

I'm knocking up another Holmes parody (a one paerter than won't take years to finish hopefully this time!) so I'm writing from Watson's victorian perspective and I want to use the word 'Negress' in a purely descriptive way, not as an insult. To me it sounds like a word a Victorian gentleman would use but obviously times, and values, have changed and so please help me out!

If you don't think the term is appropriate why not suggest another, more acceptable, phrase I could use?

MODS - I hope this post is OK but if it isn't, or descends into inappropriateness, please delete it with my sincere apologies.

 

[PennLady]

I'd think it's fine. I wouldn't be offended. I mean, it's a period piece. For it to be accurate as such, your characters should speak the appropriate way.

 

[lovecraft68]

Hello chaps and chapesses, first time posting in the forums, looking for some advice. Coming, as I do, from a rather parochial area I'd like to check if a word I wish to use is considered offensive - it would be the last thing I would wish and apologise in advance if it is (because obviously I will have to include it in this post!)

I'm knocking up another Holmes parody (a one paerter than won't take years to finish hopefully this time!) so I'm writing from Watson's victorian perspective and I want to use the word 'Negress' in a purely descriptive way, not as an insult. To me it sounds like a word a Victorian gentleman would use but obviously times, and values, have changed and so please help me out!

If you don't think the term is appropriate why not suggest another, more acceptable, phrase I could use?

MODS - I hope this post is OK but if it isn't, or descends into inappropriateness, please delete it with my sincere apologies.

This is a site that features stories of rape, adultery, incest, homosexuality and supernatural creatures having sex with humans. Negress? please.

 

[D_Lynn]

I'd think it's fine. I wouldn't be offended. I mean, it's a period piece. For it to be accurate as such, your characters should speak the appropriate way.

I concur.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

'Darky' and 'Colored' are the words youre after. But Black was also common back then. Youre asking this sort of question: WHAT WERE PROSTITUTES CALLED? It depends on who makes the reference.

 

[farfromcd]

Thanks for the replies guys. Yeah, I realise it appears odd to be asking the question on a site that contains the stories it does but there's different 'levels' of story (for want of a better description) and I didn't want to jar this one with an inapproriate word.

I think the lady in question would protest at being called a prostitute mind, in modern parlance she would probably put 'exotic theatrical performer' on her tax return!

(Mind you, I have now realised that I lied when I said the question was my first post - I've now found my first post was back in 2004 but I had completely forgotten it! That was also when I submitted the first part of my four part story that I just finished!! Bad show that.)

 

[Handley_Page]

Welcome back !

 

[oggbashan]

The official definitions at the time used Negro and Negress and included the no-longer-used definitions of mixed race such as mulatto, quadroon, octroon.

19th Century Censuses caused difficulties throughout the British Empire as racial and religious differences were seen as critical by the indigenous populations and irrelevant by the British Civil service who saw them all as 'natives'. In India the census was adapted later to show differences between Brahmins and Untouchables for example.

The Welsh were really sensitive about census forms. When a question was introduced to show those who spoke Welsh, even new born babies were recorded as being fluent in Welsh!

Black entertainers in Holmes' time would describe themselves as Negro Minstrels or even N****r Minstrels. The term C**n Singer was later, in the 10s and 20s of the 20th Century. Those terms were the way they described themselves. I have 78rpm records with labels crediting N****r and C**n singers. Only later did N****r and C**n become offensive.

However, even in historical fiction I would not use N****r and C**n because they have a completely different meaning now.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

The official definitions at the time used Negro and Negress and included the no-longer-used definitions of mixed race such as mulatto, quadroon, octroon.

19th Century Censuses caused difficulties throughout the British Empire as racial and religious differences were seen as critical by the indigenous populations and irrelevant by the British Civil service who saw them all as 'natives'. In India the census was adapted later to show differences between Brahmins and Untouchables for example.

The Welsh were really sensitive about census forms. When a question was introduced to show those who spoke Welsh, even new born babies were recorded as being fluent in Welsh!

I love Census talk. (No really, I do.) I find the topic of how governments choose to count and classify their populations fascinating.

Funny story about the US Census. The 1970 Census included a question about a person's origin or descent, trying to get at the number of people of Hispanic origin (for the first time, I'm pretty sure). The question included the answer option of "Central or South American" (along with Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Spanish, and other Spanish).* The Census booklet from that year has a paragraph explaining that when the results came in, researchers were stunned; there was a huge Hispanic population in the US South! Then Census figured out that white southerners had checked that box, assuming that being from Arkansas counted as having "South American" ancestry. It pretty much invalidated that portion of the Census.

OK. Maybe it's just funny if you're obsessed with demography.

*Yes, I realize there are a number of problems with this classification.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The official definitions at the time used Negro and Negress and included the no-longer-used definitions of mixed race such as mulatto, quadroon, octroon.

19th Century Censuses caused difficulties throughout the British Empire as racial and religious differences were seen as critical by the indigenous populations and irrelevant by the British Civil service who saw them all as 'natives'. In India the census was adapted later to show differences between Brahmins and Untouchables for example.

The Welsh were really sensitive about census forms. When a question was introduced to show those who spoke Welsh, even new born babies were recorded as being fluent in Welsh!

Black entertainers in Holmes' time would describe themselves as Negro Minstrels or even N****r Minstrels. The term C**n Singer was later, in the 10s and 20s of the 20th Century. Those terms were the way they described themselves. I have 78rpm records with labels crediting N****r and C**n singers. Only later did N****r and C**n become offensive.

However, even in historical fiction I would not use N****r and C**n because they have a completely different meaning now.

Dear Reader

Ogg is trying to say NIGGER and COON without saying it, as if it makes a difference. like 2+2 isnt 4.

 

[autoplot]

Dear Reader

Ogg is trying to say NIGGER and COON without saying it, as if it makes a difference. like 2+2 isnt 4.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[lovecraft68]

Dear Reader

Ogg is trying to say NIGGER and COON without saying it, as if it makes a difference. like 2+2 isnt 4.

How crude. Back when I grew up we preferred Spade.

 

[TE999]

Be careful using the word 'niggardly'. That has been construed as racist. I'm not kidding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_"niggardly"

 

[autoplot]

Be careful using the word 'niggardly'. That has been construed as racist. I'm not kidding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_"niggardly"

Not that I'm defending ignorance and litigiousness by any means, but the problem with terms like 'niggardly' is that they can easily be used to essentially troll. It's like walking up to someone you know is gay and say "hey want to go light up a faggot? HEY IT'S SLANG FOR CIGARETTE WHY ARE YOU OFFENDED FOR NO REASON"

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a couple of those "victims" knew the word would cause political uproar and went ahead anyway. And it doesn't take a genius to just use "miserly" instead and avoid the whole debacle. "Niggardly" is not such a vital word that it needs to be preserved on principle.

The whole thing is eye-rolly for everyone involved.

 

[PennLady]

Not that I'm defending ignorance and litigiousness by any means, but the problem with terms like 'niggardly' is that they can easily be used to essentially troll. It's like walking up to someone you know is gay and say "hey want to go light up a faggot? HEY IT'S SLANG FOR CIGARETTE WHY ARE YOU OFFENDED FOR NO REASON"

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a couple of those "victims" knew the word would cause political uproar and went ahead anyway. And it doesn't take a genius to just use "miserly" instead and avoid the whole debacle. "Niggardly" is not such a vital word that it needs to be preserved on principle.

The whole thing is eye-rolly for everyone involved.

Uh, no. I was in the DC area at the time the incident with Williams' aide happened, and it was utterly absurd. I'll grant that perhaps the people listening may not have been familiar with the word, but once the definition was known, they should have apologized. They came off as ignorant.

"Faggot" is slang for cigarette -- if you're British. So walking up to someone and doing that would just be stupid.

There is no reason the word "niggardly" needs to be avoided. I don't know if the man used it off the top of his head, or if he had written notes, or whatever, but (still speaking of the DC incident) there was nothing wrong with it. Obviously he thought his audience would be smart enough to get it, and unfortunately, he was wrong.

 

[oggbashan]

"Faggot" is slang for cigarette -- if you're British. So walking up to someone and doing that would just be stupid.

"Fag" is more usual, but it is also an abusive term for 'gay'. A third definition is a junior boy at a public boarding school who does chores for an older student.

 

[autoplot]

Uh, no. I was in the DC area at the time the incident with Williams' aide happened, and it was utterly absurd. I'll grant that perhaps the people listening may not have been familiar with the word, but once the definition was known, they should have apologized. They came off as ignorant.

There's more than one case in the link. Anyway, I agree that it's absurd and that making other people responsible for one's ignorance isn't a direction we should encourage society to go in. Just saying that all uses of the word are quite possibly not as innocent as all that.

 

[PennLady]

There's more than one case in the link. Anyway, I agree that it's absurd and that making other people responsible for one's ignorance isn't a direction we should encourage society to go in. Just saying that all uses of the word are quite possibly not as innocent as all that.

I did see that there were more instances, but I didn't have the chance to look at them.

You could be correct in your last sentence, but I honestly can't attribute that kind of ... deviousness (?) to that many people. Like it would take too much work for them to do that. On the other hand, there are trolls who seem to enjoy doing nothing but bitching about the stories on here, so...

 

[autoplot]

You could be correct in your last sentence, but I honestly can't attribute that kind of ... deviousness (?) to that many people. Like it would take too much work for them to do that. On the other hand, there are trolls who seem to enjoy doing nothing but bitching about the stories on here, so...

Perhaps I'm just being cynical. I hope so.

But people getting upset over trivial issues often gets used as evidence that said group (whomever they may be) is overly sensitive and thus should be ignored when something genuinely offensive comes along.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Perhaps I'm just being cynical. I hope so.

But people getting upset over trivial issues often gets used as evidence that said group (whomever they may be) is overly sensitive and thus should be ignored when something genuinely offensive comes along.

Quoted for truth.

When you get kicked in the shins so regularly that your shin is one permanent bruise, it's going to be "overly sensitive" for reals. So who gets to define what "Overly sensitive" is? Not the guy that's doing the kicking.

 

[estragon]

If you want to see how Sir Arthur Conan Doyle dealt with Sherlock Holmes and the race question, read "The Yellow Face" in his "Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes." You might be surprised.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If you want to see how Sir Arthur Conan Doyle dealt with Sherlock Holmes and the race question, read "The Yellow Face" in his "Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes." You might be surprised.

etext here

 

[estragon]

Thanks, Stella. Now how's that for an example of how a great writer dealt with what might be a difficult subject even today?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks, Stella. Now how's that for an example of how a great writer dealt with what might be a difficult subject even today?

Yes, it's very awww.

However. Some of my friends would point out that the story is exclusively about the white folks and the ways those white folks dealt with a problem black baby. It isn't about the baby herself, or about black people, at all. The resolution is all about congratulating the second husband on his ever so special demonstration of tolerance and humanity.

I think I wouldn't want to see a current writer treat the same issue in quite the same way-- not in a current setting... if you see what I mean.

 

[patrick1]

The phrase 'politically correct' thankfully seems to be going out of fashion. The issues raised by people using it generally seem to me to boil down to, how sensitive should I be to interpretations by others from different backgrounds of what I say but didn't really mean? Or, when people are deliberately pushing at taboo boundaries, how insensitive can I be and get away with it?

The guy in Washington DC who used 'niggardly' in the 1999 case seems, on the public record, to have accepted that as a white man, using the word to black workers when working on behalf of a black politician currently in the media firing line for not being 'black enough', he was insensitive, even though the whole thing was accidental.

It's interesting how pejorative words can be reclaimed by the group they're aimed at. Context is all. I live in a gay-friendly part of the UK, and a furnishing shop in the nearby town of Hebden Bridge has just opened called 'Home-Oh'. Here, they're on Facebook: http://en-gb.connect.facebook.com/pages/HOME-OH/208148749217250?sk=info

P