political division in america

[KimGordon67]

Hypoxia,

I'll make this simple for you. Classic Socialism is defined by a strong central government. Where policies, law, regulations are centrally-planned and executed. It's a coercive system that polices thoughts, as well as individuals, and it's currently on display in Venezuela.

Does this sound familiar?

Pick whatever name you want? They all fail. Socialism, in all its forms, has a record of failure only a liberal/progressive/socialist can ignore.

Your ideas will fail. They've proven successful...nowhere.

The only system that has lifted thousands, hundreds of thousands, in fact, millions of people from abject poverty is capitalism. If you're comfortable being a victim, and you don't want to give up being comfortably miserable...fine.

But don't pretend your ideology is successful. If it were, you'd win elections.

You do understand that social democracy - one of the things Hypoxia listed - includes capitalism?

 

[Hypoxia]

You do understand that social democracy - one of the things Hypoxia listed - includes capitalism?

No, he does not understand, or chooses not to. He prefers a strawman 'socialism' to kick around whilst ignoring reality. Hey, we can define capitalism as "organized theft" and whack it till it bleeds. That'll be equally valid, ie, it's a bogus definition.

I won't play dictionary games here. I'll just note that many very different systems labeled 'socialist' exist. They don't fit Cucker's slimy Procrustean bed.

Some socially-controlled institutions like farmer and consumer co-ops, credit unions and community banks, employee- or community-owned businesses, have almost nothing to do with gov't except to post records and pay taxes. Some social democracies require worker representatives on corporate boards. Such recognize that humans are social critters; exclusion is bad for business.

Potty training is part of socialization. Some here seem poorly trained. Sad.

 

[KimGordon67]

No, he does not understand, or chooses not to. He prefers a strawman 'socialism' to kick around whilst ignoring reality. Hey, we can define capitalism as "organized theft" and whack it till it bleeds. That'll be equally valid, ie, it's a bogus definition.

I won't play dictionary games here. I'll just note that many very different systems labeled 'socialist' exist. They don't fit Cucker's slimy Procrustean bed.

Some socially-controlled institutions like farmer and consumer co-ops, credit unions and community banks, employee- or community-owned businesses, have almost nothing to do with gov't except to post records and pay taxes. Some social democracies require worker representatives on corporate boards. Such recognize that humans are social critters; exclusion is bad for business.

Potty training is part of socialization. Some here seem poorly trained. Sad.

I guess it's nice to live a black and white world ... makes things very simple.

 

[Hypoxia]

Pick whatever name you want? They all fail. Socialism, in all its forms, has a record of failure only a liberal/progressive/socialist can ignore.

During the time of USA Robber Barons, railroads dominated the national economy. And as cartels, they fixed rates, and didn't much care about employee safety. According to archivist Otto Bettman (yeah, THAT Bettman) in The Good Old Days--They Were Terrible!, around 1900, 1% of all railroad workers died EVERY YEAR, and 9% suffered traumatic amputations EVERY YEAR. A few (socialist) safety regulation changed that.

Back in the day before (socialist) unions, 'vacation' meant your time between jobs. Otherwise you worked 80-hour 6-day weeks constantly till you got fired. (Socialist) laws changed that. Child labor? Noxious workplaces? CAPITALISM!

Meanwhile, the social democracies of Germany and Scandinavia possess higher standards of living and general happiness than USA. Nasty socialists!

 

[KimGordon67]

During the time of USA Robber Barons, railroads dominated the national economy. And as cartels, they fixed rates, and didn't much care about employee safety. According to archivist Otto Bettman (yeah, THAT Bettman) in The Good Old Days--They Were Terrible!, around 1900, 1% of all railroad workers died EVERY YEAR, and 9% suffered traumatic amputations EVERY YEAR. A few (socialist) safety regulation changed that.

Back in the day before (socialist) unions, 'vacation' meant your time between jobs. Otherwise you worked 80-hour 6-day weeks constantly till you got fired. (Socialist) laws changed that. Child labor? Noxious workplaces? CAPITALISM!

Meanwhile, the social democracies of Germany and Scandinavia possess higher standards of living and general happiness than USA. Nasty socialists!

Look, we all know the Scandanavian countries aren't real. Every now and then some socialist makes a gritty crime drama with a detective wearing fetching jumpers, and puts 'Norway' on tins of herring, but other than that, what proof do we have? Who would seriously live that close to the Arctic? Do you know anyone who's been to any of those countries ... no! All those statistics are just fake news!

 

[Hypoxia]

Look, we all know the Scandanavian countries aren't real. Every now and then some socialist makes a gritty crime drama with a detective wearing fetching jumpers, and puts 'Norway' on tins of herring, but other than that, what proof do we have? Who would seriously live that close to the Arctic? Do you know anyone who's been to any of those countries ... no! All those statistics are just fake news!

How many hordes of Scandahoovians are crashing the Canadian border trying to reach USA for welfare bennies and McFood? Did they bring their pet lemmings?

 

[KimGordon67]

How many hordes of Scandahoovians are crashing the Canadian border trying to reach USA for welfare bennies and McFood? Did they bring their pet lemmings?

You can't keep those little fuckers as pets - you're constantly having to replace them so the kids don't get upset.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm not sure which bit of capitalism, at it's core, that you're struggling with, but it fundamentally rests on maintaining relations of inequality. But, you know, keep banging on about it 'eliminates poverty' all you want.

 

[sr71plt]

And profitable one for the capitalists.

 

[KUJACK]

Very well said Jay

The idea that Capitalism eliminates poverty is unfounded, and you won't find it in any of my posts. What people (Literotica) don't like about capitalism is that success rests on the individual, and for a lot of people...that's unacceptable.

The reasons vary, but essentially people who don't like capitalism don't want equal opportunity...they want equal, or specific, results, and that's not how it works. People succeed or fail based on their own efforts.

It's funny...we're discussing this on a website devoted to creating works of literature. Each author writes their own material, and they succeed or fail (audience response) based on their own efforts. Some authors sell their work, some don't, but ultimately it's their work. That's capitalism in a nutshell.

Now enter socialism - Each author has to produce a specific work, in a specific genre, for a specific price...because someone like sr71plt (cessna pilot), Hypoxia, or Carnal Flower, says it's the best way for...everyone. You have no right to the fruits of your labor...no...that belongs to the group. It's fuckin' insane, but you see these arguments all over the politics board.

So...sr71plt...write an a story about Donald Trump...and it has to be positive, and you have to sell it for $5.99. Don't argue, because it's good for everyone. Doesn't matter if it's not good for you....your selfish, greedy, and too stupid to decide for yourself what you want to write, and the value of your own work. If you were allowed to write what you want, and sell it at the price you want, that would create....wait for it....inequality.

And everyone knows...inequality is bad.

Now...stay tuned, because we haven't even started on race yet...we have so many injustices to correct.

See how corrosive this shit is... Capitalism doesn't ensure there is no poverty, or inequality, or that everyone is equal...that's pie in the sky shit. Kids believe that...not adults.

Capitalism simply allows each individual to decide for themselves how to spend their time, their work, and it allows them to keep the most of what they earn than any other system in the world.

And if that bothers you....the problem isn't capitalism...it's you.

Venezuela would love to have you. China too. If you want to serve the state...fucking move already. Have the courage of your convictions.

Freedom is the ability to express yourself as best you can with your own limitations or exceptional talents

Being smart or talented doesn't necessarily mean you'll be successful
No one can take away your ability to try to be your best and that's what capitalism does gives you the ability to try to be your best

 

[coati]

Coati,

Which one of my points is wrong? If you want to change the subject, or use Ad Hominem...fine. But it's a notoriously weak logical argument.

Socialism only exists in societies where the citizens are unarmed. Care to guess why?

The American Political movement you reference were left-wing organizations that are now part of the democratic mainstream and they're advocating for policies that resemble socialism (i.e. single-payer healthcare).

You're arguments are vacant, pointless, and based in nothing but bullshit. Cheers.

Here's where you are dead wrong-- like some leftist extremists of the 1960s, you assume that power only comes from the barrel of a gun by saying crap like this:

Oh..here's a fun fact. The citizens that are armed...won't let the constitution be abandoned. And if you think you can rely on law enforcement or the military to enforce your 'perfect world'...think again. They're right-wingers. If you think Latte's and Skinny Jeans are enough to move this country to socialism...please...by all means...don't.change.a.thing.

Liberals, Progressives, Socialists. You don't have the power (physical) to enact the changes you advocate for...deal with it.

Your vision of America is violent and divisive. If Americans decide to move toward a different economic model, they will do so at the ballot box. If bullies like you attempt to impose your will with guns, you will end up in the same place as the armed leftists of the 60s. You don't scare me with your bully talk.

 

[KimGordon67]

The idea that Capitalism eliminates poverty is unfounded, and you won't find it in any of my posts. What people (Literotica) don't like about capitalism is that success rests on the individual, and for a lot of people...that's unacceptable.

The reasons vary, but essentially people who don't like capitalism don't want equal opportunity...they want equal, or specific, results, and that's not how it works. People succeed or fail based on their own efforts.

It's funny...we're discussing this on a website devoted to creating works of literature. Each author writes their own material, and they succeed or fail (audience response) based on their own efforts. Some authors sell their work, some don't, but ultimately it's their work. That's capitalism in a nutshell.

Now enter socialism - Each author has to produce a specific work, in a specific genre, for a specific price...because someone like sr71plt (cessna pilot), Hypoxia, or Carnal Flower, says it's the best way for...everyone. You have no right to the fruits of your labor...no...that belongs to the group. It's fuckin' insane, but you see these arguments all over the politics board.

So...sr71plt...write an a story about Donald Trump...and it has to be positive, and you have to sell it for $5.99. Don't argue, because it's good for everyone. Doesn't matter if it's not good for you....your selfish, greedy, and too stupid to decide for yourself what you want to write, and the value of your own work. If you were allowed to write what you want, and sell it at the price you want, that would create....wait for it....inequality.

And everyone knows...inequality is bad.

Now...stay tuned, because we haven't even started on race yet...we have so many injustices to correct.

See how corrosive this shit is... Capitalism doesn't ensure there is no poverty, or inequality, or that everyone is equal...that's pie in the sky shit. Kids believe that...not adults.

Capitalism simply allows each individual to decide for themselves how to spend their time, their work, and it allows them to keep the most of what they earn than any other system in the world.

And if that bothers you....the problem isn't capitalism...it's you.

Venezuela would love to have you. China too. If you want to serve the state...fucking move already. Have the courage of your convictions.

You said, and I quote, "The only system that has lifted thousands, hundreds of thousands, in fact, millions of people from abject poverty is capitalism."
I guess you didn't say it eliminates poverty ... I suppose you're OK with the ones get that left there?

This is the most simplistic explanation of both capitalism and left-leaning means of organising economies that I've seen in some time, and that's saying something.

Again, social democracy is not incompatible with capitalism. Do you actually understand how it works? You assertion that the only means of organising societies are either pure capitalism or pure socialism is, at best, disingenuous.

 

[KimGordon67]

Freedom is the ability to express yourself as best you can with your own limitations or exceptional talents

Being smart or talented doesn't necessarily mean you'll be successful
No one can take away your ability to try to be your best and that's what capitalism does gives you the ability to try to be your best

Oh ... I stand corrected. I found a more over-simplified explanation of capitalism.

 

[BotanyBoy]

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/22228612_10155666214855119_670567284374504097_n.jpg?oh=d9d4b922fcf418f2c8db77da0334f7af&oe=5A461FB0

No it's not communism, and responsible or not it's still HIGHLY socialist in nature.

The Constitution demonstrated how obsolete it is during the last election.

No it demonstrated why it's not.

When the electorate adopts social democracy you will be whining. America
won't be your country any more.

Yep, and hauling ass out of it. Hopefully I'm able to get my shit sorted before that happens.

The death of liberty and the American dream will at that point be complete...looks rather eminent, congratulations to you and the other USA haters out there.

I think it's important to distinguish between socialism and social democracy. Socialism doesn't seem to work out so well. Social democratic states, on the other hand, pretty much are successful by most measures.

One gets a vote and one doesn't...that's it.

Donald Trump is a faux egalitarian. He exploits the resentments of economically stressed whites in order to adopt economic policies that will stress them more.

If 2020 the United States may be ready for a genuine egalitarian.

I don't think he was pretending to be egalitarian in the first place.

I doubt they will be, your "genuine egalitarian" is going to have to be snakey and lie their way in. If they were to be honest about their egalitarian agenda they wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.

Socialism would be better for the United States

No it would destroy the USA because socialism is antithetical to everything the USA was founded on and intended to be.

Liberalism is what the US needs.... life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Not equality in life outcome and dragging everyone down to the lowest common denominator.

But that's for the people to decide I suppose.

I won't play dictionary games here.

Because then your bullshit would be getting shoved where the sun don't shine and snapped off at the base REGULARLY.

The reasons vary, but essentially people who don't like capitalism don't want equal opportunity...they want equal, or specific, results,

Yup.

Capitalism simply allows each individual to decide for themselves how to spend their time, their work, and it allows them to keep the most of what they earn than any other system in the world.

That concept truly disgusts the socialist.

They think they are entitled to an equal share of everyone else's work/time just because they exist.

Venezuela would love to have you. China too. If you want to serve the state...fucking move already. Have the courage of your convictions.

None of them have any conviction or they would have gotten the fuck out already.

 

[JackLuis]

Who will be ‘Brutus to your Caesar’: Watch Steve Bannon threaten McConnell at Value Voters Summit

The Tea Party divided Republicans and now the R establishment is under attack from the Right-Right wing! Wing-Nuts Unite!

Breitbart chief and former White House strategist Steve Bannon repeatedly blasted Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) at the Values Voters Summit in Washington, DC.

“Now the AP story today…talks about Bannon enlists the value voters in his war against the Republican strategist,” Bannon said to cheers. “This is not my war, this is our war and y’all didn’t start it, the establishment started it. But I will tell you one thing, you all are going to finish it.”

Bannon claimed that in the Alabama senate primary, the Republican establishment “as personified by Mitch McConnell” raised over $30 million dollars to go after Roy Moore. Despite the spending and the endorsement of Republican President Donald Trump, Moore won the Republican primary.

“In Alabama, you folks were able to turn the tables. You took Mitch McConnell’s money and you took it from his biggest asset to his biggest liability. The more money they spend, the fewer votes they get.”

Reminds me of Demon-Rats in 2016!

 

[KimGordon67]

Yeah...I know what I said. I don't need you to tell me I'm "Okay".

I'm fine with people failing and succeeding according to their own merits. Yes. I owe no one an obligation, other than to behave according to the laws of this land, and I give more to charity (my choice) than most people I know. I also expect no hand-outs from my fellow citizens. So take the virtue-signaling..and F.O.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And this is the point where the left claims "nuance". It's 'complex', and requires the expertise of government. Of course, there are other ways to organize economic arrangements. My degree and education is in finance/economics.

Here's the rub...as soon as these 'arrangements' become coercive (and they always do under leftists), they stop being a social democratic contract. They become an extension of government, and ultimately...

Government is force.

"people failing and succeeding according to their own merits" is pretty much the founding myth of capitalist ideology. It's a myth.

The finance/economics background explains a lot. Countries/societies are not businesses, but pretty much everyone who tries to run one from a finance/economics backgrounds works like they are.

The definition of 'coercive' is pretty subjective. One assumes you're arguing, for example, that anything more than the bare minimum of taxes necessary to keep the roads maintained is 'coercive', and that people in the Scandanavian states are fine paying extremely high taxes because they've been 'brainwashed' (or some version thereof). But of course, your understanding that 'everyone can succeed under capitalism' isn't ideology at all ... that's reality.

And finally ... why so angry? It amazes me how the second you start criticising capitalism, people start frothing at the mouth.

 

[BotanyBoy]

"people failing and succeeding according to their own merits" is pretty much the founding myth of capitalist ideology. It's a myth.

How do you figure that's a myth?

It's the common reality that's sunk and continues to sink socialist shit hole after socialist shit hole. It's the natural state of things....survival of the fittest.

If anything is a myth it's the communist utopia that socialist seem to think socialism will bring about.

 

[JackLuis]

Ex-GOP lawmaker: Republicans hope Democrats take House in 2018 to save America from Trump

During an MSNBC panel discussion on the “unraveling” of President Donald Trump on Saturday morning, a former GOP member of the House said he is hearing from fellow Republicans that they hope the Democrats take control in the 2018 midterms to save America from President Donald Trump.

Speaking with host Joy Reid, Ex-GOP House member Dave Jolly (FL) agreed with Sen. Bob Corker (R-TN) that Trump has no understanding of his job.

“This is a commander-in-chief with no understanding or appreciation for national security, we know that,” Jolly began. “I do have great confidence in [Chief of Staff] John Kelly. He’s a very sober leader. a very experienced national security leader. I think he’s doing a good job trying to contain him.”

“If the moment comes where he cannot? Watch John Kelly, because the seriousness of this administration rests on how long John Kelly stays,” he added.

The ex-Congressman then dropped a bombshell.

“You know, in law there’s what’s called an angry withdrawal if a clients committing fraud in court, the attorney is required to leave,” Jolly explained. “If John Kelly leaves that’s significant. There are Republicans, not elected ones in Washington right now, beginning to question whether or not we would be a safer nation if Democrats took the house in 2018. Because Republicans are never going to do the job they need to do because of the political consequences they would face at home.”

They can face the consequences now or let the Democrats face it in 2019.

 

[coati]

Find a mirror. Spend some time looking into it, and stop projecting your shit onto me.

I'm not projecting any shit on you. Your own words are those of a boorish bully, bragging about who has the physical power.

Go back to your miserable life. No one likes hanging out with a bully.

 

[KimGordon67]

How do you figure that's a myth?

It's the common reality that's sunk and continues to sink socialist shit hole after socialist shit hole. It's the natural state of things....survival of the fittest.

If anything is a myth it's the communist utopia that socialist seem to think socialism will bring about.

I really strongly recommend you Google 'social democracy' and do some actual reading. I'm not arguing for communism, or pure socialism.

Do you actually want me to explain how the 'everyone can succeed' thing is a myth, or are you being a bit facetious there. It's difficult to tell. If the former, then it would be useful if you explain exactly how you think the 'everyone can succeed' thing works, so that I understand exactly what part of the myth we're discussing.

 

[coati]

And finally ... why so angry? It amazes me how the second you start criticising capitalism, people start frothing at the mouth.

It has to do with a sense of entitlement. Right wing extremist leaders in the U.S. have taught their cultish flocks that they are entitled to be angry at the government, angry at the feminists, angry at the "liberals", angry at the minorities, angry at the progressives, angry at the transgender population, angry at foreigners, angry at immigrants, etc. This anger has become like a virus in our society, infecting our country with home grown violence and fear, while the right wingers continue to insist on arming everyone with guns that were designed for warfare. This is an extremely volatile situation.

The more a person operates out of the reptilian portion of their brain with anger and fear, the more they get addicted to the resulting flow of stress hormones. What a miserable way to live, while making everyone suffer the stress of this anger! Everything is black and white, and there is no oxygen left for civil discourse, because anger tends to be the first response.

You have put your finger on the cause of the title of this thread.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I really strongly recommend you Google 'social democracy' and do some actual reading. I'm not arguing for communism, or pure socialism.

I've read plenty on google and beyond on the subject.

I never said you were arguing for communism or pure socialism.

Do you actually want me to explain how the 'everyone can succeed' thing is a myth, or are you being a bit facetious there.

No I want you to put the goal post back where it was and back up what you said in post #76.

"people failing and succeeding according to their own merits" is pretty much the founding myth of capitalist ideology. It's a myth.

How is it a myth?

It's difficult to tell. If the former, then it would be useful if you explain exactly how you think the 'everyone can succeed' thing works, so that I understand exactly what part of the myth we're discussing.

I don't think everyone can succeed and neither do any capitalist.

That's you running around with a goal post because you can't back what you said in post #76.



"people failing and succeeding according to their own merits" is a founding principal of capitalism.

How is it a myth as you claim in post #76?

 

[BotanyBoy]

It has to do with a sense of entitlement. Right wing extremist leaders in the U.S. have taught their cultish flocks that they are entitled to be angry at the government

Actually that's the US Constitution, Bill of Rights.

1st Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It's not an entitlement, it's an explicitly named and legally protected right of the US citizenry to be pissed at their government and talk shit.

 

[KimGordon67]

I've read plenty on google and beyond on the subject.

I never said you were arguing for communism or pure socialism.



No I want you to put the goal post back where it was and back up what you said in post #76.



How is it a myth?



I don't think everyone can succeed and neither do any capitalist.

That's you running around with a goal post because you can't back what you said in post #76.



"people failing and succeeding according to their own merits" is a founding principal of capitalism.

How is it a myth as you claim in post #76?

You can't actually say 'people fail or succeed based on their own merits' and 'it's impossible for everyone to succeed' in the same sentence without it being an oxymoron. What if everyone has whatever merits you identify as necessary and sufficient for success? That, right there, is why it's a myth.

 

[KimGordon67]

Actually that's the US Constitution, Bill of Rights.

1st Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It's not an entitlement, it's an explicitly named and legally protected right of the US citizenry to be pissed at their government and talk shit.

People have the right to say whatever they want.

What people choose to say with that right is, in many cases, based on a sense of entitlement.

You're confusing delivery with content.