Pointless poll, regarding 'which'

[Pure]

This is for purists, grammarians, and righteous writers.

Do you ever write: The end which could not be avoided came suddenly**. Added: Ignore this example; see those below, or the one in the poll.

(Or do you insist on "The end that could not be avoided came suddenly.") The purported rule, being, Use 'that' for restrictive or defining clauses-- where the insertion is crucial to the sentence's meaning.

**{Added: As Black S points out, the 'end' example is not a good one. (The nipple example will do.)

So I will propose these examples, instead:

The eventuality which I had most feared came to pass.

He never had the patience to deal with horses which were not extremely well trained. }

 

[minsue]

That.

 

[doormouse]

I rarely use 'which', it just doesn't sound right.

Maybe it's just an Aussie thing?

 

[BlackShanglan]

I use which, but I also keep in mind the rule that nonrestrictive modifying clauses are set apart using commas.

"The end, which could not be avoided, came suddenly."

I don't really see how that one could become a restrictive modifying phrase. You'd need to have multiple "ends" under discussion, only one of which could not be avoided - in which case, why would you be discussing the others?

On the other hand, some phrases can be restrictive or non-restrictive depending on the context:


"The car that could not be identified was left in the lot."
(There are many cars; only the one unidentified car was left.)

"The car, which could not be identified, was left in the lot."
(There is one car. The information about its identification is "extra" and not needed to limit the meaning to a single car.)

Shanglan

(PS I hope it needless to add that by all of this I mean that I do this when thoroughly awake, brain plugged in, etc. We all have our little lapses.)

 

[Pure]

Hi Black,

Yes, you're pure all right. I myself was beginning to worry about the 'end' example, and have fixed it. So please answer the question.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I'd probably leave off both the which and the that.

The eventuality I had most feared came to pass.


Edited to add: I'd leave it off the nipple question too.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Hi Black,

Yes, you're pure all right. I myself was beginning to worry about the 'end' example, and have fixed it. So please answer the question.

I think I will stick with what I have above. I tend to use "which" for nonrestrictive modifying phrases, which I also set off using commas. (Like that one). I use "that" for restrictive modifying phrases, which don't take commas. It's relatively easy to remember that way; when the commas come out, so does the use of "which" rather than "that."

Without meaning to be difficult, I still tend to read your examples above as restrictive. That is, in "The eventuality which I had most feared came to pass," you're refining your topic with the modifying phrase - not just any eventuality, but the one you most feared. Because this appears to me to be a restrictive modifying phrase - one that narrows the meaning of the noun - I would use "that" rather than "which." Similarly, "He never had the patience to deal with horses which were not extremely well trained" uses the modifying phrase to narrow the range of the object - not all horses, just the poorly trained ones. I would also used "that" there, again because I perceive it as a restrictive modifying clause.

Or am I just being a donkey?

Shanglan

(Edited: Just noticed nipple example. I would use "that." It's restrictive; she's got two nipples, but only one is exposed. On the other hand, I think it would properly be "He saw her breasts, which she had left exposed" because then you're not restrictive any more.)

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Pure,

You're a trouble maker.

Being of simple mind, I employ the simple rule-of-thumb.

Use WHICH when it refers to something plural. "The horses which..."

Use THAT when it refers to something singular. "The horse that..."

And if in doubt, use the one that sounds the least dumb.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Pure]

Hi BlackS,

Without meaning to be difficult, I still tend to read your examples above as restrictive. That is, in "The eventuality which I had most feared came to pass," you're refining your topic with the modifying phrase - not just any eventuality, but the one you most feared. Because this appears to me to be a restrictive modifying phrase - one that narrows the meaning of the noun - I would use "that" rather than "which." Similarly, "He never had the patience to deal with horses which were not extremely well trained" uses the modifying phrase to narrow the range of the object - not all horses, just the poorly trained ones. I would also used "that" there, again because I perceive it as a restrictive modifying clause.

Or am I just being a donkey?

You are being a donkey. The examples were *intended* to be restrictive and pretty difficult to read any other way.

Best

 

[BlackShanglan]

You are being a donkey. The examples were *intended* to be restrictive and pretty difficult to read any other way.

Ah, thank goodness At least my grammar's not going on me.

Shanglan

 

[Pure]

Rumple:

Now those are *weird* rules:

They counsel against

The people that I'm talking about know who they are.

While eating, he saw the mice that were under the table.

Ever get any snow down there?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Pure,

You're a trouble maker.

Being of simple mind, I employ the simple rule-of-thumb.

Use WHICH when it refers to something plural. "The horses which..."

Use THAT when it refers to something singular. "The horse that..."

And if in doubt, use the one that sounds the least dumb.

Rumple Foreskin

I agree with Rumps here, and not just because he has such a cute ass. Whichever sounds better is the one I use. Sometimes I deliberately use incorrect grammar because the correct grammar sounds affected. I say "I licked her nearest nipple" rather than using the correct "nearer nipple" because it seems to read more smoothly.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

I agree with Rumps here, and not just because he has such a cute ass.

Oh, Box, you hound.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Xelebes]

First example, the eventuality one, I would exclude the word altogether and not replace with that.

Second example, yes I would put that in there instead of the which that is there.

 

[CharleyH]

I simply use that which sounds most suited to the sentance. Grammar by feeling, which is why I need editors

 

[Pure]

Don't be coy, Charley; in the three good examples (not the 'end' one)--nipple, eventuality, mice-- what do your feelings say as regards 'that' or 'which'. (Ignore the issue of omitting either.).

If you ever need an editor....

 

[Guest]

A writing oriented thread in the Author's Hangout?? What is this, a Christmas present for Dr. M???

I once attended a dinner of the Society for Technical Communications, a club for Technical Writers. The President, in his opening remarks, made a grammar joke that went over well. I remarked to my host that this was one of the few forums where a grammar joke would be appreciated.

"Last month", she told me, "we had a speaker on punctuation. It almost became a fist fight."

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'm with the Shanglan:

"He saw the nipple, which she had left exposed." (assuming we already know which of the two nipples we are talking about, from context)

"He saw the nipple that she had left exposed."

and

The eventuality that I had most feared came to pass.
He never had the patience to deal with horses that were not extremely well trained.

 

[CharleyH]

Don't be coy, Charley; in the three good examples (not the 'end' one)--nipple, eventuality, mice-- what do your feelings say as regards 'that' or 'which'. (Ignore the issue of omitting either.).

If you ever need an editor....

You may just find yourself wishing you had not said that.

For the poll I voted: "That" is essential in these cases. Although, my real preference would have been "His cock armoured when he saw her exposed nipple."

I do not know the rules. I tried very hard to ensure I was either sleeping during grammar tutorials, or . . . well, let's just leave it at that.

 

[doormouse]

'which', 'that', whatever...

I still don't see any nipples

 

[tolyk]

'which', 'that', whatever...

I still don't see any nipples

I like the way you think

 

[doormouse]

I like the way you think

 

[BlackShanglan]

I'm with the Shanglan:

"He saw the nipple, which she had left exposed." (assuming we already know which of the two nipples we are talking about, from context)

"He saw the nipple that she had left exposed."

and

The eventuality that I had most feared came to pass.
He never had the patience to deal with horses that were not extremely well trained.

*misty eyed admiration*

I love you.

Shanglan

 

[Pure]

Jeez, I'm feeling lonely, as the only** 'out' poster of a comment, among the six who, in deep shame, cast a vote of 'yes' (sometimes).

Just to 'seed' the discussion, here are some examples from a couple authorities-smorities

Examples from Merriam Webster Unabridged (apparently approved)

<fish which are dangerous at some particular time of the year -- Margaret Mead> [..]

<the bonds which represent the debt -- G.B.Robinson>

<the kind of ... church which you would expect a decent body of merchants to erect -- Douglas Goldring>

<a generation which had been taught ... to appreciate the beauty of simplicity -- Bernard Groom> […]

<some of the difficulties which must be guarded against -- Eastman Kodak Monthly Abstract Bulletin>

Examples from New Fowler's Modern English Usage (presumably approved)

…with the ball point pen which my father had bought for me in a curiously shaped department store…. Anita Brookner

he is described frequently…in terms which will set your teeth on edge….

**Note: Rumple: Your suggestion regarding plural finds some backing in these examples. And you are thus somewhat on the 'yes' (sometimes) side, I think. (i.e., if 'nipples' was there, instead).

Sorry I dismissed your proposal so quickly.

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Note: The use of 'which' is often preferable if there is a preposition, as in

He sat there with one foot on a fruit box to support the leg on which the guitar rested . (New Fowler's)

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{Compare ...to support the leg that the guitar rested on.}

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[Rumple Foreskin]

Sorry I dismissed your proposal so quickly.

No problem. Most people do.

Rumple Foreskin