Pms?

[Selena_Kitt]

You need to drop the superior tone when you deal with me, sweetheart. I'm not interested in being lectured to by anyone - certainly not by someone on a porn forum who probably doesn't have the number of graduate hours I've attained.

ROFLMAO!

Ok Sarah, I'm not gonna throw graduate degrees around with you...

I could hold my own with letters after my name... but it doesn't matter... I'm not one wave my degrees around to make me feel superior <shrug>

If you see someone else's opinion as a lecture, perhaps that might have more to do with you, than with the opinion being expressed?

Just a thought.

 

[entitled]

i've been following this thread because, well, i'm curious. Everybody that's posted on here so far are very intelligent people (and equines).

However, it seems tempers are flaring where they probably shouldn't be. Might i suggest a brief time away from the subject and return to it later, when things can be discussed instead of just cussed?

 

[BlackShanglan]

well I think we should be careful about differentiating between "masculine" and "male" and "feminine" and "female."

I know a lot of women who animate a lot more masculine energy and vice versa. I don't think men are the only ones who can teach about what it is to be masculine, and I don't think women are the only ones who can teach about what it is to be feminine.

I know a great many men who have a wealth of knowledge about the feminine... and a great many women who have a wealth of knowledge about the masculine. Should we not hear them, simply because of their gender? (where's the horsie when I need him? lol)

We all have these qualities within us... masculine and feminine, both...

Well, the horsie is here, but is bowing out on this one for the same reason it did last time. The terminology muddies this commentary for me, and I don't want to be tedious about nailing it down. I agree that individual people have varying mixtures of any number of qualities; I just can't see that calling the qualities "masculine" and "feminine" is helpful if they're not tied to male and female. It seems to introduce confusion into the discussion.

I think you know where I am about teaching what it is to be masculine and feminine; the idea of needing to be taught to be one's gender is a foreign one to me. If one is male, then to me one's actions must by definintion be part of what it is to be masculine, and so for female/feminine. I can't see where teaching enters into it, and indeed I think it a wretched idea to tell people that they have to be taught to behave a specific way based on their gender. I think that what it is to be male or female would properly be defined by the ways in which males and females act rather than by an externally constructed philosophy taught to them. Of course, I also think that the range of behavior within each gender makes generalization fruitless in most cases; if one is dealing with an individual, generalizations based on gender tell one nothing. One must examine the individual.

Shanglan

 

[Sex and Death]

Excuse me.

I don't believe I could teach my husband anything about getting in touch with his masculine side. Nor do I believe he has a handle on aiding me in dealing with feminine issues.

And your previous statement is indeed one of the most offensive things I have ever read. Even including ami's usual drivel.

I look forward to other women reading and commenting. You just may be surprised at the level of distaste you are about to earn.

If you believe that women have nothing to teach their men about masculinity and manhood, and men have nothing to teach their women about femininity and womanhood, then that says more about you than it does about the topic at hand.

Yours, or another's distaste, is not really a primary concern of mine, nor is it any of my business, but it is kinda fun to raise the bar for Amicus a bit.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

What is both dangerous and silly at once, and what is likely to frustrate and annoy other people, is the assumption that whichever one of these works for the speaker must work for everyone.

but what of cultural norms? what of the things we're taught about "what is right and what is wrong?" we all learn those, on a collective level (consciously and unconsciously)... it's only when someone speaks up and challenges the cultural norm that people get defensive. (as apparently, I did... I'm so far out of the mainstream sometimes that I forget... I honestly didn't think it would get the reaction it did! It's kind of funny... I don't think what I said was that radical, or even that righteous ) When we're going along with the herd, it's "all good." But when we stand up and go the other way... uh oh... yeah, I can see where it would look pretty damned dangerous and silly... you're right... I better put my blinders back on...

 

[BlackShanglan]

If you see someone else's opinion as a lecture, perhaps that might have more to do with you, than with the opinion being expressed?

Just a thought.

I mean this humbly and gently, but I really do think it's your tone and approach. It's rare for people to react positively to a suggestion that someone else's way of living is superior to their own, or that there is only one right way to live or think, to which the speaker is privileged to have access.

Just a thought.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

ROFLMAO!

Ok Sarah, I'm not gonna throw graduate degrees around with you...

I could hold my own with letters after my name... but it doesn't matter... I'm not one wave my degrees around to make me feel superior <shrug>

If you see someone else's opinion as a lecture, perhaps that might have more to do with you, than with the opinion being expressed?

Just a thought.

Actually, it doesn't.

(I do apologize for the scholastic commentary. Unfortunately I've had rather a lot to drink this evening as I've never tossed those about before.)

However, your tone is smug and your thoughts are dismissive toward any opposing viewpoint. And the fact you place all dissenting views as a problem with the dissenter is why your thoughts are being viewed in a "superior" voice.

And keep your kiss, please. That adds an extra bit of unwanted smug.

 

[Guest]

If you believe that women have nothing to teach their men about masculinity and manhood, and men have nothing to teach their women about femininity and womanhood, then that says more about you than it does about the topic at hand.

Yours, or another's distaste, is not really a primary concern of mine, nor is it any of my business, but it is kinda fun to raise the bar for Amicus a bit.

Welcome to the AH.

 

[Norajane]

It's kind of funny... I don't think what I said was that radical, or even that righteous ) When we're going along with the herd, it's "all good." But when we stand up and go the other way... uh oh... yeah, I can see where it would look pretty damned dangerous and silly... you're right... I better put my blinders back on...

No, it's not radical. I'd say it's closer to condescending and patronizing.

 

[entitled]

"Gee, you're right, ent. Maybe we should go deal with something else for a while."

"OK, let's go post on this other thread until our tempers can cool a little bit."

"Right. Let's go."

 

[Sex and Death]

You're right, I don't think there is a man alive who could teach me a damn thing about being a woman - how could they?

Native American: Roles were much more blurred than you think they were. Besides, here's a hint: THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO. They even have electricity on the rez now.

I'm glad I'm female, wouldn't want to be a man. Don't get me wrong. If Selena feels the way she does, good and well, but it's awfully presumptuous to assume that one way is the only right way.

Relativism and literalism are possibly the biggest blights on human kind.

In this moment you are blind to your own dogmatic relativism.

 

[BlackShanglan]

but what of cultural norms? what of the things we're taught about "what is right and what is wrong?" we all learn those, on a collective level (consciously and unconsciously)... it's only when someone speaks up and challenges the cultural norm that people get defensive.

Possibly I'm not seeing this the way that other people are, but I didn't really perceive your comments in the essay as challenging any entrenched cultural norm. It was more like being told that only people who do yoga will ever know a fulfilling spiritual existence. Cultural norms have never told me that yoga is bad; it's just annoying for many people to be told that there is only one path to enlightenment. I think that that is what you're running into here - not a reaction to the idea itself, which really isn't that transgressive or unusual, but the way in which it is presented. It's one thing to say "here's a new idea to try"; it's another to say "everyone needs to learn to do this my way."

(... I don't think what I said was that radical, or even that righteous )

No, I didn't think it was that radical either. If I remember, SweetnPetite did a "menstrual hut" thread some months back and talked about annointing people's heads with menstrual blood, and no one had any trouble with it. I don't think it's the issue of menstruation that's drawing the fire; I think it's the suggestion that everyone needs to approach it in one way.

When we're going along with the herd, it's "all good." But when we stand up and go the other way... uh oh... yeah, I can see where it would look pretty damned dangerous and silly... you're right... I better put my blinders back on...

I don't think that's a fair characterization of the reaction. If you'll note, I don't think anyone so far has suggested that your ideas about how to approach menstruation are wrong, dangerous, unpleasant, or unsettling. They just don't like being told that everyone has to agree with you or be labelled as afraid of their own bodies, sexually repressed, emotionally/spiritually unaware, or what have you. I think it's a fair complaint, although I don't think you meant your comments uncharitably.

Shanglan

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Sarah,

the interesting thing is... no one has even brought up a dissenting VIEW... happy to hear them... the only ones in this thread who have said anything about how they feel about menstruation have been NoraJane and Entitled... you, and Cloudy, who have been the ones to accuse me of being smug, arrogant, and force feeding my views on everyone...haven't expressed any dissenting viewpoints at all?

Do you actually disagree with my position?
Or do you just not like my attitude?
Or both?

Just curious...

honestly, if a woman wants to continue to feel that her time of the month is an annoyance, or wants to just see it as a bodily function, great! I feel sad for her, but that's my perspective, isn't it? Does that make me smug? Do you ever feel sad when you see someone who has made a choice you don't personally believe in? Does that make you smug?

I simply pointed out another way to see it... and I have a bias, yes, of course I have a bias, that's what individuality is, we are all in our own little biased worlds, right?

 

[BlackSnake]

SelenaKittyn, you should be proud of that piece. It is clearly provocative. Awesome job! I'm not jumping into the points of the issue at hand, but look at the emotions. Wow! This is what good writing is made of.

Frankly, I don't care who agrees or disagrees with you. It's pointless to me, because I take everything as fiction.

BUT! What if it was published in a woman's magazine. Damn! You'd be heading for the talk shows.

Lecturing, condescending, and patronizing...and that is just from the tone.

I guess it was suspose to be an arguementative essay. Well done. Good read, and good writing.

 

[cloudy]

Relativism and literalism are possibly the biggest blights on human kind.

In this moment you are blind to your own dogmatic relativism.

And your self-righteousness is blinding you to any opinion other than your own.

btw: what does that fact that I'm American Indian have to do with anything in this thread?????

 

[BlackShanglan]

One may have personal bias and personal preferences while realizing that not everyone is made happy by the same things. It's not necessary to feel sorrow or pity every time someone else makes a decision one would not have made oneself. True, there are some decisions that never seem to work for anyone, like "I think I'll rob a bank today." But there are vast swathes of human experience which different people will encounter in differing ways. It's not just a matter of tolerance and relativism, but real concrete differences in the ways people experience life and in what motivates them.

Take my two dogs for an example. They're of the same breed, and we got them each at the same age. They were raised a little differently, however, due to the fact that the SO and I were working more hectic schedules when the second arrived. She was also different in personality from the first - more active, more vocal, and considerably more tactile and human-focused. For the older dog, there is no reward like food; she will leave any distraction imaginable for a slice of hot dog. For the younger, this is not true; nothing I can offer her by way of gustatory temptation will even get her to look at me if there is a smiling human approaching.

My older dog might perhaps be thinking, "Idiot! If you'd just sit down and ignore those people, YOU CAN GET HOT DOGS! But stuff you; more for me. You're a fool to make that decision." The younger dog doesn't care. The older one can eat an entire pack of hot dogs for all she cares; that's not what motivates her. If there are any thoughts going through that fuzzy little skull (sometimes I doubt it), they're probably along the lines of "If you'd just learn to ignore the hot dogs, YOU CAN GET PETTED BY HUMANS! How I pity you for your foolishness."

The truth is, each has what she wants. She'd gain nothing by following the example of the other; they don't have the same values, even on their rather simple doggie level. And so with humans. We are not all made happy by the same things. Yes, some things are poor choices, largely because they rarely lead to the consequences people hope they will lead to. But the range of other behaviors is broad, and the range of human motivation and reaction equally so. To pity those who do not make one's own choices in all things is to assume that one is the type and model of every human breathing. This is simply not so. However, that said, I don't believe that individuality consists of people living in their own isolated, biased little worlds. Individuality, in any meaningful sense, is an awareness of the infinite range of individual motivation, behavior, and interest, and an understanding that this is both what makes us unique and intriguing and what must be accepted and negotiated when attempting social intercourse with other humans.

Shanglan

 

[cloudy]

Shang - you're as reasonable and gentle as ever, but of course, they're right, and everyone else is wrong, and now they get to feel "sad" for us.

But, they're not smug, or feeling superior....of course not.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I think it's a fair complaint, although I don't think you meant your comments uncharitably.

You know what, you're right.

I apologize for taking a strong position on anything, having a belief, expressing it, or even attempting to get people to see that something we are collectively doing might be harmful to our bodies, our planet, and our souls.

I'm sorry it was so offensive, and that standing up so passionately for what I know in my heart is a deeply felt loss for women everywhere (yes, even if they don't feel it!) disrupted your life for even five minutes.

now back to your regularly scheduled porn site banter.

 

[cloudy]

You know what, you're right.

I apologize for taking a strong position on anything, having a belief, expressing it, or even attempting to get people to see that something we are collectively doing might be harmful to our bodies, our planet, and our souls.

I'm sorry it was so offensive, and that standing up so passionately for what I know in my heart is a deeply felt loss for women everywhere (yes, even if they don't feel it!) disrupted your life for even five minutes.

now back to your regularly scheduled porn site banter.

Selena, you know very well it's not the fact that you feel passionately about something. It's the way you speak down to those who don't agree with you.

Put on the "poor, misunderstood me" hat if you like, but we both know that has nothing to do with it.

Putting forth your opinion is wonderful. I do it all the time. However, I don't tell you how "sad" it is if you don't agree with me, or how uneducated you are....or even that you need to be "lectured" so that you will agree with me.

 

[BlackSnake]

You know what, you're right.

I apologize for taking a strong position on anything, having a belief, expressing it, or even attempting to get people to see that something we are collectively doing might be harmful to our bodies, our planet, and our souls.

I'm sorry it was so offensive, and that standing up so passionately for what I know in my heart is a deeply felt loss for women everywhere (yes, even if they don't feel it!) disrupted your life for even five minutes.

now back to your regularly scheduled porn site banter.

You know what? I don't like it when people just follow the crowds just because its easier. So, people don't agree with you. So fucking what. I have affairs for kicks and giggles. I bet more people disagree with me than you.

I hope you're not fucking crying over this. You put up a really good piece of work. I'd like to see responses based on the writing. It got people pissed off. That is awesome. I say it deserves all fives.

 

[3113]

I'm so far out of the mainstream sometimes that I forget... I honestly didn't think it would get the reaction it did! It's kind of funny... I don't think what I said was that radical, or even that righteous

What you said wasn't radical. Not even outside of the mainstream. There's a book called Our Bodies, Ourselves written 40 years ago. Said pretty much the same thing--without the modern elements of vaginal sponges and such. So, what you said wasn't shocking or going against any entrenched p.o.v. that menstruation is dirty.

The dirty perspective, when mothers would greet their daughter's announcement that they'd gotten their first period by slapping their faces, is not dead, but it's in the minority, certainly for those who come to Lit. The pov of your lecture, that it's natural, etc., is actually the majority. The only question is whether to view the bleeding as "sacred" or as biological. Whether to put life on hold during it and meditate or not. And that...that's a bias on your end as you said.

None of which is the problem. The problem is righteousness...and it still is. Let's go back to what I originally said, as it's IMPORTANT.

Tone and additude. And no matter how right you feel you are, it matters. Because, I assume, you WANT to communicate. What you're saying might align the planets, end world hunger, and bring peace on earth--but what does it do you or anyone else any good if you say it in such a way that no one wants to listen? Or, more to the point, if the people who should listen, won't? If they feel attacked rather than informed?

Think of the Superman origin story. Superman's dad tries to tell everyone that the planet is going to explode. No one listens to him. It explodes. Now just before dad dies he can say, "Nah, nah, I told you so!" But...he kinda failed in what was really important, didn't he?

This isn't about being right, it's about communicating. And right now, communications is breaking down. That's not good. So the question isn't who's problem it is, or who's right or wrong, or if you're a brave martyr and someday everyone will realize it and curse the doubting Thomases who refused to listent to you. The question is, how can you and everyone else change their tone so that WE can all get across what might be some very good and important points on this subject?

 

[BlackShanglan]

Cloudy has the right of it, and I will add that I think your comments to me both unreasonable and unfounded. You seem to suggest that I personally have chastised you for having a passionate belief. I'd challenge you to find a place on this board where I've told someone that she or he was wrong to express a passionately held opinion politely. It's not for lack of provocation; I've seen views with which I disagreed so strongly and fundamentally that I could only say that I wholly disagreed and leave it at that. But I've never suggested that it was unwise to express them if they were expressed in ways that showed respect for others.

A refusal to acknowledge that the thoughts, beliefs, and opinions of others exist and have value is not a measure of one's passion. One may believe something very passionately and still recognize that others feel differently. Indeed, the more passionately one believes something, and more important it is that one makes a stand for it, the more vital it is to recognize and work with the feelings and beliefs that others have on the topic. Otherwise, one shuts out the very audience one wished to speak to and drives away those who might have listened. Look at the results here. As you pointed out yourself, no one has argued with your ideas about menstruation. The concepts themselves have driven no one away. Yet all hope of an open and enlightening discussion - one in which you might have presented your ideas in a favorable light and expanded upon them to an interested audience - has fled, and has fled because your audience felt their own opinions and beliefs were treated with contempt. This does not seem to me to be an ideal result if one genuinely thinks one's ideas a valuable contribution to the community as a whole.

Shanglan

(Edited to add: I wrote this while 3113 was posting to similar effect, but much more cleverly.)

 

[BlackSnake]

Com'on! Who is going to write the rebutal? "The bloody Truth"

Nasty and messy and...HELL NO! No fucking blood wings for me.

 

[Sex and Death]

Individuality, in any meaningful sense, is an awareness of the infinite range of individual motivation, behavior, and interest, and an understanding that this is both what makes us unique and intriguing and what must be accepted and negotiated when attempting social intercourse with other humans.

Shanglan

Watching you deconstruct all that has been said is interesting. You're skillful at it and it seems to calm people on many levels. An admirable gift.

The snippet above seems to suggest that you have a rather Pavlovian posture towards...well, it simply suggests that you have a Pavlovian posture. (Pun fully intended).

The snippet above also contains this: "Individuality, in any meaningful sense, is an awareness of the infinite[.]" Brackets mine.

Now that, sir, is Truth.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

You know what? I don't like it when people just follow the crowds just because its easier.

definitely not my path...

I hope you're not fucking crying over this. You put up a really good piece of work.

nope... and thanks.

There are people who clearly DID get it... and who didn't feel I was being "superior" or "smug"... a majority, in fact, if feedback is an indicator... I was especially moved by the woman from India who posted feedback...

there are more important things in the world, sometimes, than being liked, or getting along, or being PC about what you say and how you say it... for me, this was one of those times...