Plot vs. Storyline

[sr71plt]

This is my understanding of what it is as well. That's why I was a little confused by the idea that a plot is only a general statement of what the story is about then. Why would a detail/event that unexpectedly changes the direction of the story be called a plot twist if a plot is, for example, "A man wrongly accused of murder must find his wife's killer"?

I wouldn't sweat it if I were you. Nine-tenths of the "editors" in here even aren't (and most of the posters aren't even writers).

Whatever differences there may be are academic--or fantasy--and aren't agonized over in the mainstream.

 

[Verdad]

Pilot, it would be nice of you not to make constant snide remarks about posters who aren't writers, or don't have stories at Lit, or have a few of them. Your love affair with JBJ is your business, but when you talk in generalities, there are other people who fall under the same umbrella, including me. And I'm tired of ignoring covert punches, so this time I'm responding to them.

On your point about plot and story: The terms are indeed used synonymously for most purposes. In literary theory, however, they're not. Had the question not come up, no one would have bothered to split hairs, certainly not me. Since it was asked, though, I answered, and I didn't suck it out of my finger. Where there's a need for the distinction, the meanings are well established. Where there's no need for it, there's no need for it. Like with anything else, you could say, "ha, makes sense," or you could shrug and move on, or you could call bullshit—if it was. No one's shoving it down your throat, though, and to complain simply because you find it tedious does nothing but stifle others' conversations. Which is something you do all the time.

On your insinuations about 'pretending': I have nothing to pretend about. My life is not miserable because I'm not writing fiction—there is, amazingly, another million things people do, many of them pretty cool—nor is my presence here in need of justification because of it. This is an open-membership board, and it's also a community whose standards I'd say I'm upholding pretty decently. As I can uphold, too, a conversation about many aspects of writing—those about which I can't, I don't touch. If you don't like me or my posts, it's regrettable, but if you're going to call me an imposter, you're going to have to come up with something better than this false sense of your own moral superiority.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

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[Stella_Omega]

It's not about you, Verdad, it's just that srplt really really wants everyone to know he's a writer.

Did you know that srplt is a writer? He's not just any old shmoe-- he's a writer.

*nods*

 

[dozenjinx]

What prompted my question was getting some feedback where the reader said, "This was a great story with an excellent plot and a generally well thought out storyline." I interpreted that as there were a few things in the storyline he thought could have been better. I asked for clarification but didn't get a response, so I looked the two up to see if I could get an idea of how storyline differs from plot, and thereby a possible hint into what the reader might have been referring to. Mostly I want to learn from my mistakes and getting constructive criticism from readers is pretty rare for me.

I wouldn't sweat the details. He liked your story. My brief experience here is that if people have a specific problem with something in your work, they don't mind speaking up about it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

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[Verdad]

It's not about you, Verdad, it's just that srplt really really wants everyone to know he's a writer.

I know. It's just really tiresome to be called liar even on facts, god forbid having an opinion.

Lastnight I pulled out all my writing books then took notes from plot articles online, to see if I've lost my mind about what a plot is.

No, the books and articles agree with me that plot and storyline are not the same thing. Storyline arranges incidents and events in chronological order; plot arranges incidents and events and dialogue and description, etc. for best effect. Storyline exists to inform the reader; plot exists to involve the reader.

You have not lost your mind. I've been saying the same thing, and I've likewise checked it.

 

[starscape]

it's probable that your commenter isn't sure of the difference either.

Too true!

I wouldn't sweat the details. He liked your story. My brief experience here is that if people have a specific problem with something in your work, they don't mind speaking up about it.

It didn't worry me so much whether he did or didn't like it. Mostly it confused me and made me realize I hadn't been making a distinction between two things I had been assuming were the same. Once that curiosity was piqued I wanted to know the difference.

When you read a story a plot point provokes you to wonder WHY?
The storyline provokes you to wonder AND THEN? or WHAT NEXT?

No, the books and articles agree with me that plot and storyline are not the same thing. Storyline arranges incidents and events in chronological order; plot arranges incidents and events and dialogue and description, etc. for best effect. Storyline exists to inform the reader; plot exists to involve the reader.

It was so weird when I read this, because it stirred this vague, distant memory of hearing/reading that before myself, maybe in high school or college when I took some writing courses. While the two are closely intertwined there is a clear distinction. I like the way you worded it; it illustrated the differences in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. EDITED TO ADD: I just realized this is precisely what Verdad was saying earlier. Der...

As far as learning the craft, I think it is helpful to know what the rules are before you go breaking them. At this point I'm just trying to get back into the groove of writing, you know, and enjoying the process of telling stories. Still, the more I am writing, the more I want to get better at it. There are so many mistakes I've been making that I would not have known to avoid them (or how) if I hadn't learned why they were mistakes.

For example I use a lot of modifiers. I didn't realize that can be distracting to a reader and can be a sign you're not choosing words which will describe the same thing more succinctly. I had been operating on the assumption I was clearly describing what I'm picturing in my mind for the reader. I suspected I was being too wordy at times, but didn't know why. Learning the reason why helped me to understand that I was delving into purple prose rather than painting a lush landscape for the reader.

 

[Pure]

thoughts

[revised]

i'd note the the distinctions of verdad, jbj, and others, apply at a particular level of complexity. simpler structures are common in routine erotica.

 

[starscape]

[revised]

i'd note the the distinctions of verdad, jbj, and others, apply at a particular level of complexity. simpler structures are common in routine erotica.

By that do you mean something like, "Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl" is a more simply-structured plot? Basically, I'm wondering if the reason why there is so much variation, depending on who you ask, in what "plot" means is because it exists, perhaps in part, on a continuum?

Might be totally talking out of my ass here, just trying to integrate why there is so much difference in opinion on something I would have guessed would be very straightforward. For example, if I asked, "What does foreshadowing mean?" I am certain virtually everyone would provide practically the same answer. I find it both strange and fascinating something that is the foundation of fiction doesn't seem so cut and dried, at least in a "common knowledge", daily usage sense.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

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[driphoney]

I think maybe a question might be: Is it a story, if it has no plot? Though I really like JBJ's distinction between storyline and plot. Cleared some things up for me, anyway.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

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[starscape]

I think maybe a question might be: Is it a story, if it has no plot?

Jon Franklin (2 Pulitzers) sez a story has to have a plot, be it ever so humble. He sez readers demand the structure the plot provides.

driphoney's question makes me think of the stroke stories on Lit like the ones Boxlicker writes/describes above. Could the "conflict to be resolved" be something as simple as achieving orgasm or just plain gettin' some, and thereby actually make these stories, if by definition a story requires a plot? I mean, you could build a more "literary" conflict into it, say if one of the partners has been struggling with the inability to come, making it the conflict to be resolved. The climax of the story would be, well, finally achieving climax. Hm, maybe "literary" wasn't the word I was looking for...

Anyway, what I mean is, if the story is, "Ben comes over to my house, he eats my pussy and then we fuck and have mind-blowing orgasms" couldn't the "conflict" simply be the need/desire to release that sexual buildup? May not make it the most intellectually stimulating of plots, but there is tension, build up, climax and resolution.

Or are those what I sometimes see people calling "vignettes"?

 

[sr71plt]

Pilot, it would be nice of you not to make constant snide remarks about posters who aren't writers, or don't have stories at Lit, or have a few of them. Your love affair with JBJ is your business, but when you talk in generalities, there are other people who fall under the same umbrella, including me. And I'm tired of ignoring covert punches, so this time I'm responding to them.

Well, of course there are folks here who want to continue sweeping under the rug that they are pretending to be Lit. authors when they aren't. It's in their interest to sweep it under the rug.

I'll keep calling them parasites here because that's what they are. Tough if it applies and is inconvenient for it being pointed out when they act like they should own the Web site and AH.

 

[Weird Harold]

driphoney's question makes me think of the stroke stories on Lit like the ones Boxlicker writes/describes above. Could the "conflict to be resolved" be something as simple as achieving orgasm or just plain gettin' some, and thereby actually make these stories, if by definition a story requires a plot? ...

Or are those what I sometimes see people calling "vignettes"?

Yes.

A vignette usually doesn't have the full plot structure of a story, so it's like "only part of a story." But the basic scenario of "boy meets girl, boy seduces girl" can be either a 'story' or a 'vignette' or something in between for scholars to argue over classifying.

"Stroke Stories" tend to be vignettes because there's no real structure to them, but the fewer words in a story, the less room there is to develop more than the most basic of plots.

 

[driphoney]

Yes.

A vignette usually doesn't have the full plot structure of a story, so it's like "only part of a story." But the basic scenario of "boy meets girl, boy seduces girl" can be either a 'story' or a 'vignette' or something in between for scholars to argue over classifying.

"Stroke Stories" tend to be vignettes because there's no real structure to them, but the fewer words in a story, the less room there is to develop more than the most basic of plots.

I wrote a vignette, and enjoyed doing it. Oh wait! I think I wrote two. Trouble is, the other one was supposed to be a story, but after 7 chapters, the plot has gotten lost!

So, what do you call a long-winded plot-less story? (and no, you can't cheat and call it something that starts with "sh" and ends with "it"!

Oh, and what's the difference between a short story and a vignette? Do you think some stroke stories fit into the short story catagory?

 

[Darkniciad]

I wrote a vignette, and enjoyed doing it. Oh wait! I think I wrote two. Trouble is, the other one was supposed to be a story, but after 7 chapters, the plot has gotten lost!

So, what do you call a long-winded plot-less story? (and no, you can't cheat and call it something that starts with "sh" and ends with "it"!

Oh, and what's the difference between a short story and a vignette? Do you think some stroke stories fit into the short story catagory?

Vingettes ( on Lit, anyway ) are mainly what I call "Set up - Sex" stories. There's a simple introduction of the characters ( maybe ) and a description of how hot they are for each other, then sex, which is the end of the story.

The line between this and short story is blurred, but there generally must be some other sort of resolution either before/after the sex. A good example of a blurry line story off the top of my head would be a woman trying to solicit donations for a cause from wealthy people. She's relaxes later in a bar, frustrated with the minimal fruits of her efforts, and encounters a man who takes her breath away. He's likewise smitten with lust for her, and naughty things ensue. Afterwards, she finds out that he's filthy rich, and makes up the shortfall of her donation campaign.

Really, the whole donation thing is just character description and a means to put the two people in the same place at the same time, but there's also slightly more than the sex going on in the story. Blurry line.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ooh! ooh! i know these two!

I wrote a vignette, and enjoyed doing it. Oh wait! I think I wrote two. Trouble is, the other one was supposed to be a story, but after 7 chapters, the plot has gotten lost!

So, what do you call a long-winded plot-less story? (and no, you can't cheat and call it something that starts with "sh" and ends with "it"!

There's a wonderful word for such; "picaresque' This word originally meant a story starring a picaroon, or scoundrel, but nowadays can mean a long series of episodes that don't go anywhere in plot terms but feature the same main character.

Oh, and what's the difference between a short story and a vignette? Do you think some stroke stories fit into the short story catagory?

A short story has a beginning, a middle and an end, even if the beginning-- or the end-- is only by assumption. A vignette is more or less nothing but a middle.

A lot of strokers qualify as stories-- all of mine do.

 

[JackLuis]

Ponzi, Ponzi, Patsy

12345, there satisfied?

 

[JackLuis]

OOps, sorry ment to start another thread.

 

[Weird Harold]

Oh, and what's the difference between a short story and a vignette?

What Stella said.

Do you think some stroke stories fit into the short story catagory?

Most definitely there are stroke stories that are actual short stories, some of them are actually well-written stories, The majority of strokers, though, I would put in that middle ground for scholars to argue over; they try to be stories but ...

 

[starscape]

Oh, and what's the difference between a short story and a vignette? Do you think some stroke stories fit into the short story catagory?

Thanks; that was my next question.

Not that I'll likely ever write a short story; I'm too damn long-winded. Still, it's good to know these things.

 

[starscape]

A vignette usually doesn't have the full plot structure of a story, so it's like "only part of a story." But the basic scenario of "boy meets girl, boy seduces girl" can be either a 'story' or a 'vignette' or something in between for scholars to argue over classifying.

I wondered if there was a fuzzy grey area where they overlap. I'm one of those people who likes to imagine the "but what if"'s.

Speaking of fuzzy grey areas:

Vingettes ( on Lit, anyway ) are mainly what I call "Set up - Sex" stories. There's a simple introduction of the characters ( maybe ) and a description of how hot they are for each other, then sex, which is the end of the story.

The line between this and short story is blurred, but there generally must be some other sort of resolution either before/after the sex. A good example of a blurry line story off the top of my head would be a woman trying to solicit donations for a cause from wealthy people. She's relaxes later in a bar, frustrated with the minimal fruits of her efforts, and encounters a man who takes her breath away. He's likewise smitten with lust for her, and naughty things ensue. Afterwards, she finds out that he's filthy rich, and makes up the shortfall of her donation campaign.

Really, the whole donation thing is just character description and a means to put the two people in the same place at the same time, but there's also slightly more than the sex going on in the story. Blurry line.

Now see, I'd probably say that's a story. She had a conflict and it was resolved. Getting lucky just happened to be the vehicle by which she attained the rest of the money she needed.

Of course now I'm wondering... It might depend on how it is written. I've seen some stories that started out with a premise perhaps of a similar flavor but it goes out the window as soon as they have sex. The "conflict" was just thrown in to give them an excuse for having sex. Which then goes back to your "Setup - Sex" story comment.

Blurry line indeed.

Ooh! ooh! i know these two! There's a wonderful word for such; "picaresque' This word originally meant a story starring a picaroon, or scoundrel, but nowadays can mean a long series of episodes that don't go anywhere in plot terms but feature the same main character. A short story has a beginning, a middle and an end, even if the beginning-- or the end-- is only by assumption. A vignette is more or less nothing but a middle.

A lot of strokers qualify as stories-- all of mine do.

Oh boy! New term. Never heard of "picaresque" before.

Thanks for explaining the difference between vignette and short story.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

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