E
esclave_PP
Guest
killer muffin, not sure what your so upset over, but please stop harrasing me. thank you.
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Rybka
Nit pick; pearl too!
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2002
- Posts
- 2,449
Re: feedback on this girl's poems
Re your "poems", they deserve the interest and commentary so far engendered. To go slightly further they read as if written by a young male who has yet to experience much of the real world.
Usually I encourage new posters to continue to read and write. In your case I can only encourage you to do the former.
Regards, Rybka
If you are not simply a troll, may I suggest that you try the BDSM board for people more friendly toward your lifestyle/role-playing.mwbs_slave said:
Re your "poems", they deserve the interest and commentary so far engendered. To go slightly further they read as if written by a young male who has yet to experience much of the real world.
Usually I encourage new posters to continue to read and write. In your case I can only encourage you to do the former.
Regards, Rybka
E
esclave_PP
Guest
yikes that was rude. No I am not a troll, I was asking for feedback. Sorry you are having a bad day....
KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2000
- Posts
- 25,603
If you ask for critique here, you will get critique. You cannot control what others will say about your poetry to you or behind your back. If you request feedback, you'll get it. They tend to be very honest here--which is nice. If you are looking for feedback as a poet, you will find it very easy to grow as a poet here. If you are looking for feedback as a slave, you're going to find it uncomfortable at best. The critiquers here do not care about your relationship, how you feel about it, or the wonderful things it engenders. They care about how well your poetry expresses that.
I realize that Literotica is a sex site, but not all of the forum goers like having someone else's sexuality forced on them. Lit'ers are not opposed to BDSM or poetry about BDSM. However, you will find the forums--including the BDSM forum--very much against any BDSM style honorifics. Do not use A/all etc. because it's annoying.
Additionally, we are not involved in your slave-master relationship and most of us find it uncomfortable to be peripherally involved in such. Deliberate depersonalization of the self is going to make people uncomfortable. You are not "this girl" to us no matter what your sexual proclivities. You are a person and if behave as a non-person, you will be treated as a non-person.
So, a few friendly words of advice about being at Literotica no matter which forum you are in.
To be quite frank, Rybka is right. Your poem fails on many levels and the most obvious of which is sentimentality. To quote:
You can interchange any one of your poems with this one.
While this seems cruel to say, it is the truth. Your poems are rich in sentiment and lacking in meaning. Additionally, it does not touch your reader because you are not writing to your reader. You are writing solely to you master. If that is the case, do not share your poetry with the public because the public will not appreciate the meaning behind it.
First, consider your audience. If you put your poetry up where the general public--consisting of people you do not know--can read it, then you should write to that public. Not for, to.
Second, consider what you mean. What do you mean? What is the point? Why should the reader care? What should the reader get from the poem?
Third, consider the way you use language. Feeling isn't nearly as important as the way you express it. You express your feeling with a lot of raw, trite, and cliched ideas. You have not harnessed that feeling and you haven't made it work for you. Instead, you just put it out there, expecting it to be understood. It is understood, but it's also shallow with no depth of thought to it.
Read this poem by Jeffrey Harrison:
This is what Rybka meant by reading. You should read poetry and a lot of it. Not greeting card poetry, but real poetry. They should have books at the library. Read as much as you can from as many different poets as you can. When you read it, don't just read the words, shut the book, and go on. Take the poem apart. What makes it good. What makes it bad. How does it work. How did the poet put meaning into it. How did the poet make it stronger. How did the poet personalize it. What makes it good poetry?
I realize that Literotica is a sex site, but not all of the forum goers like having someone else's sexuality forced on them. Lit'ers are not opposed to BDSM or poetry about BDSM. However, you will find the forums--including the BDSM forum--very much against any BDSM style honorifics. Do not use A/all etc. because it's annoying.
Additionally, we are not involved in your slave-master relationship and most of us find it uncomfortable to be peripherally involved in such. Deliberate depersonalization of the self is going to make people uncomfortable. You are not "this girl" to us no matter what your sexual proclivities. You are a person and if behave as a non-person, you will be treated as a non-person.
So, a few friendly words of advice about being at Literotica no matter which forum you are in.
- Don't use BDSM honorifics or dimunitives. Very few people care for them. Even in the BDSM forum where it is prohibited.
- Don't refer to yourself in the third person habitually, particularly not a diminutive third person. It gives a bad impression of who you are.
- Don't assume that people are going to be open about your D/s desires because the forum is attached to a porno site. Outside of the BDSM forum itself, most people prefer to deal with you as a person, not a slave.
- As in face to face contact, not everyone cares to be a party to your sexuality. In most non-D/s style relationships, this is not a problem because the role-playing isn't such an important part. We do not care for slaves or masters here. We care for poets and readers. When you come to a poetry board, come as a poet, not a slave.
- Remember, people here do not know you.
To be quite frank, Rybka is right. Your poem fails on many levels and the most obvious of which is sentimentality. To quote:
You can interchange any one of your poems with this one.
While this seems cruel to say, it is the truth. Your poems are rich in sentiment and lacking in meaning. Additionally, it does not touch your reader because you are not writing to your reader. You are writing solely to you master. If that is the case, do not share your poetry with the public because the public will not appreciate the meaning behind it.
First, consider your audience. If you put your poetry up where the general public--consisting of people you do not know--can read it, then you should write to that public. Not for, to.
Second, consider what you mean. What do you mean? What is the point? Why should the reader care? What should the reader get from the poem?
Third, consider the way you use language. Feeling isn't nearly as important as the way you express it. You express your feeling with a lot of raw, trite, and cliched ideas. You have not harnessed that feeling and you haven't made it work for you. Instead, you just put it out there, expecting it to be understood. It is understood, but it's also shallow with no depth of thought to it.
Read this poem by Jeffrey Harrison:
This is what Rybka meant by reading. You should read poetry and a lot of it. Not greeting card poetry, but real poetry. They should have books at the library. Read as much as you can from as many different poets as you can. When you read it, don't just read the words, shut the book, and go on. Take the poem apart. What makes it good. What makes it bad. How does it work. How did the poet put meaning into it. How did the poet make it stronger. How did the poet personalize it. What makes it good poetry?
Angeline
Poet Chick
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Posts
- 27,349
Hi mwbs_slave
and welcome to the poetry board.
Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I saw your post and thought about responding a bunch of times, but I've been very busy lately.
I did read your poems, though, and I have a few comments. (Though you got a very good, detailed critique from km, who is an excellent writer.)
Yes feedback is feedback and we all take what we get here, but I don't think your poetry is irredeemable, lol. Far from it. I think you have strengths and weaknesses, like any writer--even the ones here who get raves. We're all learning.
Your strengths I think are these: you are articulate, you have a sense of formatting, your line breaks make sense, you use some images metaphorically. These are great and, trust me, lol, for these qualities alone, your poems are ahead of two-thirds of the stuff I'm asked to critique.
On the down side, I see two big weaknesses holding you back. The first is that your poems are vague; the second is the dreaded cliche thingy. Let me explain.
KM is absolutely right when she says there are a zillion mediocre poems here (I'm paraphrasing but you get the idea). If you want to move beyond that, have your poems stand out one of the first things you must do is learn to write with detail and specificity.
I would focus on specific events. For example, write about when you first met you master or something specific you did for him or he for you to deepen the relationship. Then it will be easier to get at detail, but you will still have your theme--love, trust, overcoming fear, whatever it is.
Cliche is hard to avoid for us all, but you can train yourself to spot it, if not when you first write, then when you edit.
Specifically--
Dreams
In a world of fantasy
dreams, like nets, were thrown
from a vessel hopelessly
adrift and alone.
In this stanza, "hopelessly adrift" is overused. You should find another way to say it. I assume that by "vessel" you mean a person who has dreams, but we don't throw our dreams at something, so it doesn't all hang together. I understand what you're getting at, but a specific situation would immediately clarify this.
To cast a net and catch a dream
is no simple task.
Of any man it might seem
impossible to ask.
Now here you are saying you want to catch a dream, but you just "threw" one--it's contradictory and shows the kind of trouble that vagueness gets you into. Don't get me wrong. I'm not putting you down. I've done this too, we all have. I'm just pointing it out and suggesting how to avoid it.
Also, the last two lines in this stanza sound forced--sometimes referred to as "Yoda-speak," and something you should look for when you edit so you can correct them.
When you turn these lines around:
It might seem impossible
to ask of any man.
you see that while this is clear, it's not poetic. Lots of people torture constructions and think it's "poetic." It's not--plus, it's vague. It's better to use an example from literature, your experience, whatever to say it. For example, if you substituted this with something like "I am a failed Prometheus," you'd convey the same idea but with a vivid image that is unexpected. This is what km means by fresh, evocative writing.
My dreams have come up empty,
Worthlss, tangled, torn.
--A rend to harsh for charity
--A wound that must be borne.
How have your dreams come up empty? Why? It's good that you've stayed with the net metaphor, but it's still not clear. Why must you bear this wound? What have you done that makes you undeserving of charity? Specifics about these would bring your poem to life.
How long have I been dreaming?
The ship sails out of sight.
Sand's slipped through the opening.
I've dreamed away the night.
This last stanza seems to summarize, but why? Poems can end ambiguously--you should not have to end with the obvious. And what is the opening? The wound? A hole in the ship? An hourglass? Sand sticks with the ocean/ship/net theme yes, but what does an hourglass have to do with it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Now unlike km, I have no problem with a sentimental poem. Sentiment is, after all, feeling, and poems that don't feel are cold empty things. I do think though that if you rewrote this using some specific incident that describes your theme--
While one dreams so as not to feel pain, the opportunities to make one's dream come true slip away
--you will have a very strong poem. That's a good, interesting theme, so pull the words out of yourself and write it! And don't forget to edit out cliches!
One last note. Work at writing poetry with sincere dedication and humility and learn what you can--even when your reviewers are harsh. It's not easy to make oneself vulnerable this way, and harder still when people are less tactful than they could be. Getting such reviews is--as I'm sure you know--a fact of putting your art out for people to see and critique.
Believing in yourself is number one though. I heard the same kinds of things you did when I started out, and I almost gave up. My first book of poems is being published soon. Keep an open mind, learn, and believe in you. 
and welcome to the poetry board.
Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I saw your post and thought about responding a bunch of times, but I've been very busy lately. I did read your poems, though, and I have a few comments. (Though you got a very good, detailed critique from km, who is an excellent writer.)
Yes feedback is feedback and we all take what we get here, but I don't think your poetry is irredeemable, lol. Far from it. I think you have strengths and weaknesses, like any writer--even the ones here who get raves. We're all learning.
Your strengths I think are these: you are articulate, you have a sense of formatting, your line breaks make sense, you use some images metaphorically. These are great and, trust me, lol, for these qualities alone, your poems are ahead of two-thirds of the stuff I'm asked to critique.
On the down side, I see two big weaknesses holding you back. The first is that your poems are vague; the second is the dreaded cliche thingy. Let me explain.
KM is absolutely right when she says there are a zillion mediocre poems here (I'm paraphrasing but you get the idea). If you want to move beyond that, have your poems stand out one of the first things you must do is learn to write with detail and specificity.
I would focus on specific events. For example, write about when you first met you master or something specific you did for him or he for you to deepen the relationship. Then it will be easier to get at detail, but you will still have your theme--love, trust, overcoming fear, whatever it is.
Cliche is hard to avoid for us all, but you can train yourself to spot it, if not when you first write, then when you edit.
Specifically--
Dreams
In a world of fantasy
dreams, like nets, were thrown
from a vessel hopelessly
adrift and alone.
In this stanza, "hopelessly adrift" is overused. You should find another way to say it. I assume that by "vessel" you mean a person who has dreams, but we don't throw our dreams at something, so it doesn't all hang together. I understand what you're getting at, but a specific situation would immediately clarify this.
To cast a net and catch a dream
is no simple task.
Of any man it might seem
impossible to ask.
Now here you are saying you want to catch a dream, but you just "threw" one--it's contradictory and shows the kind of trouble that vagueness gets you into. Don't get me wrong. I'm not putting you down. I've done this too, we all have. I'm just pointing it out and suggesting how to avoid it.
Also, the last two lines in this stanza sound forced--sometimes referred to as "Yoda-speak," and something you should look for when you edit so you can correct them.
When you turn these lines around:
It might seem impossible
to ask of any man.
you see that while this is clear, it's not poetic. Lots of people torture constructions and think it's "poetic." It's not--plus, it's vague. It's better to use an example from literature, your experience, whatever to say it. For example, if you substituted this with something like "I am a failed Prometheus," you'd convey the same idea but with a vivid image that is unexpected. This is what km means by fresh, evocative writing.
My dreams have come up empty,
Worthlss, tangled, torn.
--A rend to harsh for charity
--A wound that must be borne.
How have your dreams come up empty? Why? It's good that you've stayed with the net metaphor, but it's still not clear. Why must you bear this wound? What have you done that makes you undeserving of charity? Specifics about these would bring your poem to life.
How long have I been dreaming?
The ship sails out of sight.
Sand's slipped through the opening.
I've dreamed away the night.
This last stanza seems to summarize, but why? Poems can end ambiguously--you should not have to end with the obvious. And what is the opening? The wound? A hole in the ship? An hourglass? Sand sticks with the ocean/ship/net theme yes, but what does an hourglass have to do with it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Now unlike km, I have no problem with a sentimental poem. Sentiment is, after all, feeling, and poems that don't feel are cold empty things. I do think though that if you rewrote this using some specific incident that describes your theme--
While one dreams so as not to feel pain, the opportunities to make one's dream come true slip away
--you will have a very strong poem. That's a good, interesting theme, so pull the words out of yourself and write it! And don't forget to edit out cliches!
One last note. Work at writing poetry with sincere dedication and humility and learn what you can--even when your reviewers are harsh. It's not easy to make oneself vulnerable this way, and harder still when people are less tactful than they could be. Getting such reviews is--as I'm sure you know--a fact of putting your art out for people to see and critique.
Believing in yourself is number one though. I heard the same kinds of things you did when I started out, and I almost gave up. My first book of poems is being published soon. Keep an open mind, learn, and believe in you.
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Rybka
Nit pick; pearl too!
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2002
- Posts
- 2,449
Gee Angeline, what did you say??? Darn, we lost another one to DieText!mwbs_slave said:
But at least you can get help editing your new book!
Editing Profile
Rygards, Rybka
I already have an editor who is turning my hair gray on a daily basis, but once I bury him in the backyard, I may be looking for a new one.
KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2000
- Posts
- 25,603
Re: Hi mwbs_slave
I don't have problems with sentiment either. I don't think I was clear, though. Sentimentality is sort of like unearned emotion and it's inauthentic. Or like emotional entitlement. It's manipulative, not feeling. I don't think of sentimentality as having genuine sentiment.
She didn't write that poem. That was written by someone else who wrote it specifically to show what anonymous voice poetry is. I didn't want to use one of her poems of an example of "bad poetry", that's just unnecessarily cruel since her poems aren't "bad".
It was a great crit of the poem, though! I couldn't have said it any better myself.
Angeline said:
I don't have problems with sentiment either. I don't think I was clear, though. Sentimentality is sort of like unearned emotion and it's inauthentic. Or like emotional entitlement. It's manipulative, not feeling. I don't think of sentimentality as having genuine sentiment.
She didn't write that poem. That was written by someone else who wrote it specifically to show what anonymous voice poetry is. I didn't want to use one of her poems of an example of "bad poetry", that's just unnecessarily cruel since her poems aren't "bad".
It was a great crit of the poem, though! I couldn't have said it any better myself.
Angeline
Poet Chick
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Posts
- 27,349
Woman, you made my day (and it's very early)--and I may have to put that in my sig line, lol.
And I'm so dense sometimes.
I didn't want to comment on slave's poems on her page--they were too explicit, and that was sort of in the way of the points I wanted to make. I saw that other poem and thought oh cool, km got a nonerotic poem of hers. So I write this long crit and then realize, duh, it ain't hers. Anyway by then I was sick of writing about it, and figured ahhh screw it, the points still stand.
And I know what you mean about sentimentality--I shouldn't have been so glib about it. For me there's a big difference between the sentimentality in Dickens' novels, where I think it's driven by genuine caring and a drive for social reform and, say, an overweening greeting card that's simply a consumable good for sale. Oh, or those Chicken Soup for the Soul books that make me want to scream.
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