Please read.

[maggot420]

yes I can see you squirming.

yes but thats only because youre going to get me in trouble for hijacking this thread

 

[Penelope Street]

Why would I believe a person who says I am stupid when I know I am not?

I agree with what you're saying, Charley. Control is just not the word I would have chosen and I don't have any issue with the term victim either. But I'm a little weary of quibbling over terminology when there are too many more important things to discuss.



Such as:

One of the most frustrating things for people outside a battering relationship is trying to understand why a woman doesn't just leave.

Understanding it's not easy to leave, should we focus on something other than convincing a battered women to do just that? Self-esteem seems like the intuitive starting point, but what do we do when we start sounding like a broken record and nothing changes?

 

[CharleyH]

I agree with what you're saying, Charley. Control is just not the word I would have chosen and I don't have any issue with the term victim either. But I'm a little weary of quibbling over terminology when there are too many more important things to discuss.

Suggest, then Penny.

 

[cantdog]

I thought it must be something like that. Unfortunately, some do believe they are weak because someone else, often the abuser, says so.

I fail to see how a person can control what anyone else thinks about anything, but certainly the way we carry ourselves has a bearing on how others perceive us. Is that why you objected to 'vicitm', particularly when the victim describes herself as such, because it can carry the connotation that the abused party is helpless, which may or may not be the case?

I leave an impression with people, often deliberately, but frequently just casually, en passant. The impression I leave is not random. I am projecting it. I don't try to look like an arc-welder from Peru. I take pains to give a different impression.

That's controlling what other people think. Not absolutely, not in a 'mind-control' way, but certainly I do my best to influence them. So do salesmen, politicians, people who are manipulating or conning, all kinds of people. That includes abusers, who go out of their way to intimidate.

You know that, Penelope. So I think you're being disingenuous to say you fail to see how a person can control what others think of them.

People who have internalized their victimhood stand like victims, make eye contact like victims, walk like victims. It's in the body language.

Acting like a victim in that way actually brings out dominant behaviors in strangers meeting such people for the first time. If you look rabbity, people diss you.

Charley's point is not rocket science. A victim of a crime doesn't have to act like a rabbit thereafter. It isn't required to identify with the role.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Cantdog,

Thank you for taking the time to provide such a thourough the explanation. Influence is an excellent term, but what I'd really like to know is, how does one not look like the rabbit?

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Hi Cantdog,

Thank you for taking the time to provide such a thourough the explanation. Influence is an excellent term, but what I'd really like to know is, how does one not look like the rabbit?

Easy. I could be classified as a victim but most people tell me until they get to know me I intimidate them. Excellent acting skills can come in handy.

 

[Kassiana]

Re: reliability of the "one in three women abused" statistic:

I just pulled it from the website, so I'm not sure if it was updated. If you have any info, please share.

The only case where I KNOW data was falsified to support a conclusion is the oft-cited "one in four women are raped" study. In that study, women who did not believe they had been raped were re-classified BY THE RESEARCHER as women who had been raped. Their self-reports indicated that only one in sixteen had been raped.

That's why I asked, because I knew that at least in one case, a researcher had played fast and loose with what women had told her. I don't find it hard to believe that either the definition of abuse is so broad as to cover general arguments with one's spouse or that the data was misrepresented to create a higher number.

I'm concerned because women do have real problems, and if we start misrepresenting their scope they're even less likely to be taken seriously.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Re: reliability of the "one in three women abused" statistic:

The only case where I KNOW data was falsified to support a conclusion is the oft-cited "one in four women are raped" study. In that study, women who did not believe they had been raped were re-classified BY THE RESEARCHER as women who had been raped. Their self-reports indicated that only one in sixteen had been raped.

That's why I asked, because I knew that at least in one case, a researcher had played fast and loose with what women had told her. I don't find it hard to believe that either the definition of abuse is so broad as to cover general arguments with one's spouse or that the data was misrepresented to create a higher number.

I'm concerned because women do have real problems, and if we start misrepresenting their scope they're even less likely to be taken seriously.

Thank you for responding to this and for enlightening me.

 

[rgraham666]

Am I a victim? Well, yeah.

Did I try to overcome it? Not be the victim? Again, yeah.

But I couldn't not be the victim in a way most other people could accept. No, I don't care what they think.

But they can still shun me. Draw their circle of wagons together and keep me outside. Make decisions that affect me and give me no say in the matter.

Eventually, you get tired of fighting.

 

[Kassiana]

Thank you for responding to this and for enlightening me.

Thank you for being willing to listen to what I had to say, rather than assuming I had bad motives for what I said.

Now, let's get back to having you call us all bitches, okay? All this damned huggy stuff from you is freaking me out.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Thank you for being willing to listen to what I had to say, rather than assuming I had bad motives for what I said.

Now, let's get back to having you call us all bitches, okay? All this damned huggy stuff from you is freaking me out.

Deal, my surliness is almost up to 90% right now.

 

[woodnymph_O]

.

And then there is (rarer but not as rare as people think) physical abuse of men by women - another difficult area because the men are slightly more reluctant than the women to admit that it happens.

The victim is often persuaded by the abuser that it is the victim's fault 'If you didn't keep nagging about my drinking... or whatever... then I wouldn't have to hit you.' Once the victim admits to someone else that the abuse happens it is a first step on the long and convoluted way to addressing the abuse.

Physical abuse is not confined to slums and lowlifes. It can happen anywhere, to almost anyone you know, and abusers can be clever about concealing the abuse, only hitting where it doesn't show, denigrating the victim by claiming that they are clumsy, fall over often or are just accident prone. Abusers rarely admit that they are the problem.



Og

true words OG I have seen men who are abused also, I have to say, a woman raising her fist to hit, when it's not in protection of her life of the life of someone she loves in WRONG also , I believe this with all my heart

 

[woodnymph_O]

There are some very good men in the world. Unfortunately, there are also some men, who for some reason, aren't happy unless they feel they have a puppet on a string....and let's face it, control is usually what it's all about.

They will gradually isolate you from your friends and family. They may not tell you that you can't spend time with them, but they will make your life so hard if you keep ties with your support network that after literally years of hell, it's much easier to let those friends, family, support go, because you just don't want to have to deal with his hissy fits.

Look around you....chances are that a man you are acquainted with has either abused women in the past (not just physically), or is abusing one now.

Do you know how often I hear how "lucky" I am?

"You don't have to work, and your husband makes a good living for you."
Yes, he does, but what you don't see is that I have to beg for enough money to buy cigarettes, or even a lunch at McDonald's. New clothes? Forget it. The last time I got more than a pair of jeans has been at least four or five years ago.

"Your husband is so good to you. Look at that gorgeous car he bought you."
What you don't realize is that that car is not in my name, and he frequently takes the keys away from me as "punishment." Not only that, he checks the mileage frequently, and in the morning before I get up, he goes through it, just snooping. I have my own car, in my own name, but he won't give me the money to buy a tag for it, so it sits in the driveway, and I'm unable to drive it.

The sad, sad truth is:

• I have to turn the ringers off on both my cell phone and the landline when he gets home from work (sneakily, of course), because if anyone calls, he listens to my side of the conversation intently, and then I have to play twenty questions when I hang up. Wrong number? Of course it isn't, it's the guy I'm cheating with calling to check and see if my husband's home.
• If I go anywhere on a day that he's off, I need to go and come right back, no unscheduled stops....it's more proof that I'm cheating.
• Going to my mother's for the day? I'd best be home before dark, or I will be read the riot act at a level that will crack crystal for at least an hour after I get home.
• Gas for the car to go pick up my older son? Forget it. (keep in mind, my older son does not live with me anymore, because I did not want to put him through this hell)
• Cherished family heirlooms? Not anymore....he's broken them, put his cigarettes out on my grandmother's dresser, and thrown away my two older childrens' schoolwork that I had saved. I don't have any of it anymore.
• No one can come to my house to visit because, I kid you not, he looks at the tire tracks in the driveway when he gets home.
• Is there a book that is your favorite? Don't let him know...that'll be the first one he tears up the next time he goes into a rage.

The worst thing is that my younger son gets to watch some of these performances. There's more.....I've been accused of everything from cheating with multiple partners to being a drug addict. But he doesn't have a problem with alcohol, of course not - despite the 30-odd beer bottles I cleaned out of the bathroom yesterday.

My husband doesn't hit me (not since I told him that the next time he put his hands on me in anger I'd superglue his hands to his cock while he slept), but I would almost rather he did. Walking on eggshells in your own home is exhausting.

Don't tell me to go to a shelter....those are temporary, and without money, or any type of support network, I'm stuck. Besides, if there's a shelter within 50 miles of me, I wish someone would point it out. There are ZERO social services here beyond the bare minimum of welfare and foodstamps. And he will take my youngest child from me by any means fair or foul, he's done it before. He would drool in anticipation if I went to a shelter and had no visible means of supporting myself and my youngest child....he'd snatch him so fast my head would spin, and the court system here would let him.

Forget calling the police when he goes into a rage. They won't get here for at least 30 minutes, if that quickly, and when they do finally arrive, all they'll do is offer me a ride somewhere. Forget the lunatic out in the woods behind the house who's nearly broken my arm before......that's not their problem. They don't get paid enough to do anything that dangerous.

My whole point in telling this sad story is that an abuser doesn't look like a monster, and chances are he's someone that you think is a damn good guy, treats his wife well, treats his family well. Don't be fooled. They're very accomplished actors. So much so that when you do try to get away from them, what little support you have trickles away because you must be "crazy to leave such a good man."

It's insidious, it goes on constantly, and it's everywhere. I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me - I got myself into it, and I'll get myself out, but when something happens like what has happened with woodnymph, it absolutely breaks my heart. I told her months ago to run like hell and not look back. If they can work things out, and he treats her the way he should from now on, more power to 'em, but the hard cold facts are this: if a man will hit a woman once, he'll hit her again....and it just gets easier and easier for them to justify doing it.

I have been through so much of that in past relationships
but you just said a few things that made flash bulbs go off in my head as i have to admit
I'm an abuser too
not physicly , but emotionally
and after seeing your feelings
I realize i have some work to do on me
Nymphy

 

[woodnymph_O]

Re: reliability of the "one in three women abused" statistic:

The only case where I KNOW data was falsified to support a conclusion is the oft-cited "one in four women are raped" study. In that study, women who did not believe they had been raped were re-classified BY THE RESEARCHER as women who had been raped. Their self-reports indicated that only one in sixteen had been raped.

That's why I asked, because I knew that at least in one case, a researcher had played fast and loose with what women had told her. I don't find it hard to believe that either the definition of abuse is so broad as to cover general arguments with one's spouse or that the data was misrepresented to create a higher number.

I'm concerned because women do have real problems, and if we start misrepresenting their scope they're even less likely to be taken seriously.

I appreciate the info also but would like to provise a study of my own
late one night 6 girls who had been friends since teenage years at least
talked openly about such things
I was one of them
and we all admitted to each other what had happened in our lives over the years
and 6 out of 6 had been raped
and it was not a violent invasion by a stranger
but by a boyfriend, or date
I actually find ABS study to be low in number
compared to my own
Nymphy

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I appreciate the info also but would like to provise a study of my own
late one night 6 girls who had been friends since teenage years at least
talked openly about such things
I was one of them
and we all admitted to each other what had happened in our lives over the years
and 6 out of 6 had been raped
and it was not a violent invasion by a stranger
but by a boyfriend, or date
I actually find ABS study to be low in number
compared to my own
Nymphy

Those statistics alone are horrifying.

 

[SeaCat]

Abs, you have struck a nerve here with me.
Cloudy, Charley, and all of the women on this board.

Many of you think of me as violent because of some of my comments. It is true that I can be and am extremely violent in certain circumstances. If I catch you breaking into my house, you will get hurt. Not because you threaten me or are threatening to take something away from me, but because you are a threat to my wifes well being.

My wife was raped at the ripe age of 20. My niece was raped by her Step-Father when she was 13. My wifes rapist was in another country when I found out about it. (One year after it happened and six months after we started going out.) My nieces Step father spent six weeks in the hospital before he could visit the jail.

I have never in my life raised my hand against a woman. I never will. I will walk away before that happens. In my family we have one law, that is no man will ever raise his hand against his wife. (This includes emotionaly.) If one of the wives calls the rest of the family because of this happening then the male will CEASE TO EXIST! It has happened. There are no exceptions.

Some of the worst confrontations I have ever been in are because I stepped in when I saw or heard a man beating a woman. There is no excuse! To me this is more than just an opinion, it is a matter of honor. I do not react with anger or even rage when I see this, I am coldly calculating. What used to be called a Blue or Ice Berserker. I will not stop until he is down.

Maybe I am a throwback to another age. My parents compare me to their forebears in Prussia and Middle Germany. I am enlightened in that my wife is not just my mate but that she is my equal. Any man who raises his hand against her or another woman and I know of it will find me around his neck. (You thought my offers of aid to others on this board were a joke right?) No I am not civilised, to hell with laws and civilisation if they will not protect those who need protection.

Some may argue that the men who perpetrate these crimes, and they are crimes, need help. They have a Psychological problem. Yep maybe they do. However they have had all the warnings they need from society. (No RG, you don't fit into this catagory.) There is a cure for this type of behavioral problem but we are to civilised for that aren't we?

We could go on and on about circumstances being behind this type of behavior. We could even try to reach an accord where we can condemn some of it, but I condemn all of it. There is no fucking excuse! End of story.

My father has a comment he pulled from somewhere. I told it to my wife when I started teaching her self defense. (Don't try to rape her boys, if she doesn't rip your balls off, literaly then I will. The only difference is I'll make you eat them and she won't.) A woman should know how to defend herself but she should never have to.

Cat

(Sorry about the rant but this is a subject that hurts me more than people can imagine. I have seen way too much of it.)

 

[rgraham666]

No offense taken SeaCat.

I suppose I'm lucky, kinda, that my illness turns its aggression against me rather than others.

But I've intervened myself a couple of times. Old fashioned of me, but women are more valuable than men and if I have to be hurt, or die, defending a woman against scum, so be it.