Please grovel, bitch?

[LargoKitt]

I am mystified by a whole genre of erotic stuff that has at its root the humiliation and ruination of a partner. I learned how a sad or tragic story can really get to some readers. Apparently anger is a 'turn on' too, especially if it involves reducing another person to rat shit. I can fully understand the turnon, as play, of having someone somehow powerless; both for the dominant and submissive person, especially if that is somehow a role reversal. For a bunch of people some kind of punishment triggers something hot, though I don't quite get that. Maybe a religious background where 'bad is good'? But erotica that is about 'ruining' the person's body, or reducing someone to a sniveling mass of jelly...? I guess some people have deep old anger issues against someone and 'taking it out' on them or a surrogate is a big release. But...ick. Insights?

 

[Djmac1031]

I've done my best to be open minded since starting my journey here, and not be too judgemental of other's kinks.

But yeah, humiliation has never done it for me. Maybe because I have enough insecurities already without being berated sexually.

Just like my past experiences with physical abuse won't allow me to appreciate physical domination or violence as a sex kink. Not that I'm condemning anyone who write or enjoys these kinks. Far from. it.

And I have talked to some in depth about some of it and I have come to appreciate light BDSM stuff, but nothing too extreme.

 

[old_prof]

I am mystified by a whole genre of erotic stuff that has at its root the humiliation and ruination of a partner. I learned how a sad or tragic story can really get to some readers. Apparently anger is a 'turn on' too, especially if it involves reducing another person to rat shit. I can fully understand the turnon, as play, of having someone somehow powerless; both for the dominant and submissive person, especially if that is somehow a role reversal. For a bunch of people some kind of punishment triggers something hot, though I don't quite get that. Maybe a religious background where 'bad is good'? But erotica that is about 'ruining' the person's body, or reducing someone to a sniveling mass of jelly...? I guess some people have deep old anger issues against someone and 'taking it out' on them or a surrogate is a big release. But...ick. Insights?

I'm going to be a bit intolerant here, but I really suspect that much (most?) of the reactions are from true mysoginsts, men who have felt so thoroughly betrayed by a woman at some point that they can only take joy in destroying women. Or they could hate women as you suggest, because they feel it is sinful to feel attracted to a woman, so any women they are attracted to are inherently evil. Either is sad in my book.

 

[Rambling_Chantrix]

I can fully understand it within the (ostensibly safe) bounds of a consensual kink scene. Absolutely obliterate me, yeah.

Would not enjoy it happening to me IRL. But some people read fantasies of stuff they'd never endure IRL because it's a way to trigger the experience without consequence, right? Like, folks who read noncon.

 

[AllenWoody]

This might be a good question to pose in the BDSM forum.

 

[SmilingLez]

I wonder how many of these people who engage in rage/anger-based humiliation/degrading have been bullied as children and this is sort of a bully by proxy (revenge) activity for them. I also wonder if psychopathy is on the rise. I include body shaming in this. I don't believe that this type of behavior heals trauma for either party as some people believe

 

[lovecraft68]

Keeping it simple, you're wired this way or you're not and if you're not then I don't feel you'll ever be able to understand it and some respectfully understand that, some will denigrate it and others-and this ticks me off more than the people who just say 'that's sick" are the ones who will try to discuss and explain something they know nothing about, but that won't stop them.

 

[anthrodisiac]

I used to be fairly mystified by people's kinks and fetishes — Why would someone enjoy feet? Or pain? Or being spit on? — even though I'm into things most people would be mystified/disgusted by: I've heard several second-hand comments about furries and people who find anthros sexy, basically equating it to beastiality (which it definitely is not) or calling it a mental disorder/deficiency or a sick perversion.

But in trying to figure out where my own proclivities came from, I realize that most people's fetishes and preferences come from a whole slew of places. Trying to boil down why people like a particular fetish or kink is difficult, because there are many, many paths to get there.

For degredation, some of it could be rooted in anger, certainly, but it can also be about power. Someone could have been traumatized or treated poorly when they were younger, and this is a revenge mechanism. Pathologizing large swathes of people for enjoying this sort of erotica is too simplistic, and sweeps up a lot of people who aren't misogynists/misanthropists/sociopaths.

You also have to consider that just because someone enjoys reading about a kink, doesn't mean they would actually ever do it or even enjoy it in real life. In fact, I would imagine a decent chunk of readers enjoy the stories because it allows them to explore aspects of sexuality that they would never dare to try in real life. A lot of people enjoy cheating stories, but wouldn't dream of cheating on their partner.

Erotica can be an indulgence in desires that many peope never get to, or want to, explore, experienced vicariously through the characters.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm going to be a bit intolerant here, but I really suspect that much (most?) of the reactions are from true mysoginsts, men who have felt so thoroughly betrayed by a woman at some point that they can only take joy in destroying women. Or they could hate women as you suggest, because they feel it is sinful to feel attracted to a woman, so any women they are attracted to are inherently evil. Either is sad in my book.

I agree there are a lot of men like that out there-and here, go check out Loving wives-but I didn't see where the OP specifically said this about women, they said partner and both men and women engage in this behavior.

 

[Writer61]

I am mystified by a whole genre of erotic stuff that has at its root the humiliation and ruination of a partner.

As am I, but I try not to judge other people's kinks (real and fantasy).

 

[lovecraft68]

Sighs...from my WIP and written yesterday. What can I say?

“You sound more like you’re ready to beg me to stop than to keep going! You get off on a hand job like a teenager and now you’re too tired to fuck?”

“I…I…” Ted trailed off unable to stop moaning as she assaulted his cock

“You better not be too tired you worthless little shit. If you start to go soft, I’ll call Lady Bethany back and tell her to bring some friends and you’ll be the center of a strap on merry go around and it won’t be your mouth they’ll be using.”

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm going to be a bit intolerant here, but I really suspect that much (most?) of the reactions are from true mysoginsts, men who have felt so thoroughly betrayed by a woman at some point that they can only take joy in destroying women. Or they could hate women as you suggest, because they feel it is sinful to feel attracted to a woman, so any women they are attracted to are inherently evil. Either is sad in my book.

That was my take too, when I read a couple of those stories when I first arrived here on Lit, checking out the various categories. Full blown misogyny, hostile anger. Anti-erotic in my book, serving another purpose altogether, definitely not mine.

 

[anthrodisiac]

Keeping it simple, you're wired this way or you're not and if you're not then I don't feel you'll ever be able to understand it and some respectfully understand that, some will denigrate it and others-and this ticks me off more than the people who just say 'that's sick" are the ones who will try to discuss and explain something they know nothing about, but that won't stop them.

Damn, beat me to it.

It's definitely the case that if you're not into something, you can't fully understand why someone would be unless you really try hard to come at it from a place of genuine curiosity and either empathy or an analytical perspective.

Like anything sexual, it's rarely a conscious choice. Most people don't think, "Yeah, I want to be attracted to a dominatrix, so now I am." Same with sexuality, it's rarely a conscious choice for someone to go, "I want to be attracted to women. Poof, now I am."

People shouldn't judge others for things outside their conscious control. You can dislike it, find it distasteful, that's fine. But to pass moral judgement for subconscious desires, especially when morality is entirely subjective? It's not fair to the person. Judge a person on their actions and the things they can control, not things beyond it.

 

[dirk2024]

I am mystified by a whole genre of erotic stuff that has at its root the humiliation and ruination of a partner.

I don't know that is something we can understand, as its based in a person's psychology. I have my "icks"...I also have a few turn-on's that give other people the ick ("bare that armpit, baby"). I just do my best to try and steer clear of my ick's, hoping the author has made good use of story tags.

It's troublesome when I dip down into the Fetish and even the General board. There are threads there I enjoy and threads loaded with ick. The only thing I can affect is me, so I do my best not to shame and move on. I am human though...so "my best" may not always be perfect.

 

[lovecraft68]

Damn, beat me to it.

It's definitely the case that if you're not into something, you can't fully understand why someone would be unless you really try hard to come at it from a place of genuine curiosity and either empathy or an analytical perspective.

Like anything sexual, it's rarely a conscious choice. Most people don't think, "Yeah, I want to be attracted to a dominatrix, so now I am." Same with sexuality, it's rarely a conscious choice for someone to go, "I want to be attracted to women. Poof, now I am."

People shouldn't judge others for things outside their conscious control. You can dislike it, find it distasteful, that's fine. But to pass moral judgement for subconscious desires, especially when morality is entirely subjective? It's not fair to the person. Judge a person on their actions and the things they can control, not things beyond it.

I've always been a switch so I have the ability to see it from both the giving it and taking it end of things, and over the years I have tried to explain it to people who I knew would listen with an open mind, but it's just hard to put into words how things that most people see as negative behavior/experiences like pain, being verbally abused and humiliated, being sexually debased and in extreme instances almost dehumanized, can be arousing both in the case of someone doing this to someone or wanting it done to you.

The Safe/Sane /Consensual standard 'big three' of the lifestyle really only contains the hard rule of consent. Safe and sane varies on the person and your definition may not be mine which is why in these encounters what's often left out of stories/movies etc is that it works best when the top/sub have had discussions on what they like, don't like, and what the limits are.

This is fiction here and other places, but nothing gets under my skin more than people who think you just meet someone at a club and go home and get into this type of game. Blessed be Fifty Shades for romanticizing abuse and shitting all over what we're actually about.

 

[ADirtyPerv]

Kink cross-sections are weird. My main three are cheating, incest, and anal, and that is odd to many, I'm sure. I've played with elements of humiliation in my writing, but it only feels good if they're "deserving" somehow. A decent person getting crushed without consent feels bad.

Sighs...from my WIP and written yesterday. What can I say?

“You sound more like you’re ready to beg me to stop than to keep going! You get off on a hand job like a teenager and now you’re too tired to fuck?”

“I…I…” Ted trailed off unable to stop moaning as she assaulted his cock

“You better not be too tired you worthless little shit. If you start to go soft, I’ll call Lady Bethany back and tell her to bring some friends and you’ll be the center of a strap on merry go around and it won’t be your mouth they’ll be using.”

Question, LC, who is the MC here? Whose perspective are you coming from? I see your note about being a switch above, I'm trying to frame this section properly in my head.

 

[lovecraft68]

Kink cross-sections are weird. My main three are cheating, incest, and anal, and that is odd to many, I'm sure. I've played with elements of humiliation in my writing, but it only feels good if they're "deserving" somehow. A decent person getting crushed without consent feels bad.


Question, LC, who is the MC here? Whose perspective are you coming from? I see your note about being a switch above, I'm trying to frame this section properly in my head.

In the excerpt, its a female Top with her sub.

He's not deserving of this in the sense he's any type of bad guy, its what he enjoys. I can go hardcore, especially with verbal humiliation, but my style is once the session is over I usually add a quick exchange or something that softens the encounter by reaffirming this is what he enjoys. At the end of the scene, they spend a few minutes lying in bed and making some casual small talk as this is one of her regulars.

I've also done something at the start where the sub will express some variation of "do your worst"

Something I've always found interesting-and smart-is there's a site called Kink dot com which specializes in all forms of extreme BDSM or role play. The scenes start with a woman (or man for some of their sites) being interviewed and stating their fantasy. "I want to have guys come in while I'm in the shower and drag me out and..." or "My fantasy is to go camping with a few guys, I'm the only woman and they 'force me" into it in the woods.

The scene plays out, and at the end we get another interview where they're in a robe showered, or still looking a hot mess and they're asked if they enjoyed it and they'll say how amazing it was.

They do this to not just enforce "look, this is meant to be fantasy' but porn sites have strict rules on actual non con so they always want to portray this is all consensual.

 

[anthrodisiac]

The Safe/Sane /Consensual standard 'big three' of the lifestyle really only contains the hard rule of consent. Safe and sane varies on the person and your definition may not be mine which is why in these encounters what's often left out of stories/movies etc is that it works best when the top/sub have had discussions on what they like, don't like, and what the limits are.

This is fiction here and other places, but nothing gets under my skin more than people who think you just meet someone at a club and go home and get into this type of game. Blessed be Fifty Shades for romanticizing abuse and shitting all over what we're actually about.

One of my best friends is a hardcore Domme, her partners are her slaves, and they write up contracts precisely because of this. I learned a lot about D/s relationships and BDSM from her, and it was really eye-opening for me just how must trust and care goes into it. Not because I thought it was basically "I take what I want, you little bitch" but because I hadn't really thought about it much before.

I was thinking about that a lot when I introduced D/s elements in a couple chapters of my current series. Even though it was a hookup, I wanted to make sure the MC and sub had a verbal contract, establishing safe words, goes and no-goes, honorifics, etc., in addition to being in a club where the bouncer would check in after a pre-determined period of time to make sure everyone was still safe and consensual. I used my friend's utter hatred of 50 Shades basically okaying assault, gave the MC a friend with that same opinion so he knew going in that D/s and BDSM are fundamentally about trust and mutual respect (even if you have degredation play).

But even with all that, it was still overwhelming for his first time. He'd never taken on a Dom role, because it was something he'd never really thought about or explored before, and he had a natural tendency to be a worrywort and overcautious during sex. So he ended up ruining the sub's experience because he struggled to disconnect the play of "good girl getting her little red panda pussy wrecked" from genuine distress, even after multiple assurances from her when he interrupted the play using the safe words as the Dom, primarily "Yellow" (pause to check in), rather than wait for her to use the safe word or signal to indicate she was in actual distress or to check in at reasonable intervals to ask her color.

So, basically, he didn't trust her to tell him when she was in actual distress, which goes against the kind of trust required in a D/s relationship/encounter. The follow up chapter was a MILFy polar bear being a sweet Mama Domme to the MC to show him how to check in with a partner in a way that respects and trusts them, but still checking in with their color every once in a while to make verify the play is still within the bounds of the sub's comfort.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

It's hard for me to imagine heterosexual (probably other types too but I'd better stay in territory I've spent my life in) adults who don't enjoy at least a bit of play with power, punishment and so on. At a minimal level, it's what a lot of flirting is about. A girl throws a french fry at her date and giggles anticipating his response -- what do you think is happening there? The question is just how far people like to take it in the bedroom. Probably safe to assume that anything we can think of, no matter how shocking, has been tried and maybe even enjoyed by someone out there.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I'll say this, I don't think I've read anything as creepy here as what you can pretty easily find for sale in dead-tree form.

 

[SmilingLez]

We seem to agree that there are ethical and non-ethical dynamics. I think if writing such a story stressing the ethical dynamic, ssc, rack, fries, prick, cccc, etc. would be the way to go because then you could educate the reader as well. Too many people take fiction as fact and incorporate that into their everyday life

 

[Bramblethorn]

I am mystified by a whole genre of erotic stuff that has at its root the humiliation and ruination of a partner. I learned how a sad or tragic story can really get to some readers. Apparently anger is a 'turn on' too, especially if it involves reducing another person to rat shit. I can fully understand the turnon, as play, of having someone somehow powerless; both for the dominant and submissive person, especially if that is somehow a role reversal. For a bunch of people some kind of punishment triggers something hot, though I don't quite get that. Maybe a religious background where 'bad is good'? But erotica that is about 'ruining' the person's body, or reducing someone to a sniveling mass of jelly...? I guess some people have deep old anger issues against someone and 'taking it out' on them or a surrogate is a big release. But...ick. Insights?

Any attempt to understand this stuff has to factor in that there are plenty of people who want to be on the "humiliated and ruined" side of the fantasy. Some guys will pay a dominatrix thousands of dollars for her to make them crawl and eat dogfood.

Thing one: we should get used to being mystified by other people's turn-ons. It's not other people's duty to explain themselves to us, as long as they're dealing with their kinks ethically (SSC/RACK etc. etc.)

Thing two: sensation is non-linear.

There's a famous bit in The Simpsons where Sideshow Bob steps on a rake and gets hit in the face, and then he steps on another one and another. After a couple of times the gag stops being funny and it feels like it's time for the sequence to stop. But instead they keep going, and by extending the sequence to ridiculous lengths it becomes funny again.

If somebody pokes me with a needle, I'll say "ow", because it hurts. But if somebody keeps on poking me with a needle for half an hour or so, I'll drift off into a blissful endorphin haze and I won't want them to stop. (At least, that's how it went the one time I got a tattoo. It also helped me work through a tangled knot of complicated grief that had been sitting with me for years.)

It's kind of like turning up a speaker. At first when you turn the dial, the music will be the same only louder. But eventually you hit a point where the sound starts distorting and it's no longer just a louder version of what was playing originally; it's become something else that you could never predict just by listening to the low volume.

Most of us have experience with somebody being a jerk to us, and it sucks. But that doesn't necessarily mean we can extrapolate from that to understand what it feels like to have that experience turned up to eleven, as it were.

 

[BlueZen]

I don't kink-shame or vanilla-shame anyone. Whatever gets your rocks off, keep at it.

And believe me... there is some boring sex happening out there! I try not to feel bad for them. It's what they like.

 

[LargoKitt]

Any attempt to understand this stuff has to factor in that there are plenty of people who want to be on the "humiliated and ruined" side of the fantasy. Some guys will pay a dominatrix thousands of dollars for her to make them crawl and eat dogfood.

Thing one: we should get used to being mystified by other people's turn-ons. It's not other people's duty to explain themselves to us, as long as they're dealing with their kinks ethically (SSC/RACK etc. etc.)

Thing two: sensation is non-linear.

There's a famous bit in The Simpsons where Sideshow Bob steps on a rake and gets hit in the face, and then he steps on another one and another. After a couple of times the gag stops being funny and it feels like it's time for the sequence to stop. But instead they keep going, and by extending the sequence to ridiculous lengths it becomes funny again.

If somebody pokes me with a needle, I'll say "ow", because it hurts. But if somebody keeps on poking me with a needle for half an hour or so, I'll drift off into a blissful endorphin haze and I won't want them to stop. (At least, that's how it went the one time I got a tattoo. It also helped me work through a tangled knot of complicated grief that had been sitting with me for years.)

It's kind of like turning up a speaker. At first when you turn the dial, the music will be the same only louder. But eventually you hit a point where the sound starts distorting and it's no longer just a louder version of what was playing originally; it's become something else that you could never predict just by listening to the low volume.

Most of us have experience with somebody being a jerk to us, and it sucks. But that doesn't necessarily mean we can extrapolate from that to understand what it feels like to have that experience turned up to eleven, as it were.

Okay, so part of it is about *intensity*. But the genre is about 'ruining' people. So I don't want to slide into the merits of BDSM here. This is basically about people being raped.

 

[LargoKitt]

I can fully understand it within the (ostensibly safe) bounds of a consensual kink scene. Absolutely obliterate me, yeah.

Would not enjoy it happening to me IRL. But some people read fantasies of stuff they'd never endure IRL because it's a way to trigger the experience without consequence, right? Like, folks who read noncon.

Hmmm, but I'm exploreing why that fantasy exists.