Pete Rose
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Svedish_Chef
On Walkabout
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Let the bastard in! Let im in!
rambling man
Somewhat Deadly
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I have heard a lot of people compare the Pete Rose situation to crime, saying how many murderers have been convicted and released during Rose's suspension.
But Rose was more like a lawyer caught doing something unethical and disbarred from practicing.
It makes me uncomfortable that a person of his greatness on the field is not in the Hall of Fame. He exemplified, at least on the field, how the game should be played, give 110% on every play no matter who you play against. The fans never got a lackadasical performance from Pete Rose.
On the other hand, what he did while a baseball manager is something that could seriously undermine the integrity of the game. The fans have to believe that they are seeing something genuine, two teams coming together to do the best they can against one another. That's one reason why the XFL failed, it never seemed legitimate. That's one reason that the NBA is in a tailspin, because the fans increasingly believe that the league tips the balance so some teams will win. That's why the punishment had to be draconian.
As a self-professed baseball historian, Rose understood that baseball will tolerate a lot from its players. Steve Howe retrurned ten times from drug suspensions. Players can disgrace their own bodies and minds many times over, so long as they do not undermine the game as a whole. Then baseball gets angry, if not paranoid....
Plus, if Rose actually got in, who would pay attention to him then? I don't think he even wants to get in at this point.
But Rose was more like a lawyer caught doing something unethical and disbarred from practicing.
It makes me uncomfortable that a person of his greatness on the field is not in the Hall of Fame. He exemplified, at least on the field, how the game should be played, give 110% on every play no matter who you play against. The fans never got a lackadasical performance from Pete Rose.
On the other hand, what he did while a baseball manager is something that could seriously undermine the integrity of the game. The fans have to believe that they are seeing something genuine, two teams coming together to do the best they can against one another. That's one reason why the XFL failed, it never seemed legitimate. That's one reason that the NBA is in a tailspin, because the fans increasingly believe that the league tips the balance so some teams will win. That's why the punishment had to be draconian.
As a self-professed baseball historian, Rose understood that baseball will tolerate a lot from its players. Steve Howe retrurned ten times from drug suspensions. Players can disgrace their own bodies and minds many times over, so long as they do not undermine the game as a whole. Then baseball gets angry, if not paranoid....
Plus, if Rose actually got in, who would pay attention to him then? I don't think he even wants to get in at this point.
Expertise
Omniscient, Omnipotent and Occasionally Charming
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If only to make IT go away
Sure he's a dick, no question he was unethical...... such is professional sports.
So let him in if only to relegate him back to his natural habitat.... midwest strip mall grand openings.
Sure he's a dick, no question he was unethical...... such is professional sports.
So let him in if only to relegate him back to his natural habitat.... midwest strip mall grand openings.
M
miles
Guest
We all agree he has the stats. What is keeping him out is that he won't admit he gambled and shows no remorse. Baseball is a very conservative, stuffy institution and I doubt that will change anytime soon. My guess is he'll get in when he's a old man or after he dies. What a shame.
rambling man
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The shame is that he did it to begin with. Even if you are addicted hopelessly to gambling, bet on basketball, hockey, curling, j'ai alai, county commission elections, anything but baseball. Being a manager he had too much influence over games to allow it to go unpunished
Baseball is one of the worst things to bet on because it is so unpredictable. A couple days ago didn't the Indians score about 12 runs in the ninth to beat Seattle or something like that? In baseball a brand new rookie could outpitch Greg Maddux in a game but never win again. Baseball has so many variables.
Baseball is one of the worst things to bet on because it is so unpredictable. A couple days ago didn't the Indians score about 12 runs in the ninth to beat Seattle or something like that? In baseball a brand new rookie could outpitch Greg Maddux in a game but never win again. Baseball has so many variables.
Pokerman
Lady's Man
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OK...here's a question for ya...
Pete Rose was banned from baseball one year before he was eligible to be elected to the Hall of Fame. He certainly would have been voted in on the first ballot.
Say that Rose was enshrined in Cooperstown, and then a few months later John Dowd releases his report to the commissioner, and Rose is banned. Would they strip him of his HoF election? Toss his plaque in the Dumpster? Banish him from upstate NY? Of course not. He'd still be a Hall of Famer. So why should he be ineligible, just becuase this came to light a year to early for Pete?
Put the Hit King in the Hall!!!!
Pete Rose was banned from baseball one year before he was eligible to be elected to the Hall of Fame. He certainly would have been voted in on the first ballot.
Say that Rose was enshrined in Cooperstown, and then a few months later John Dowd releases his report to the commissioner, and Rose is banned. Would they strip him of his HoF election? Toss his plaque in the Dumpster? Banish him from upstate NY? Of course not. He'd still be a Hall of Famer. So why should he be ineligible, just becuase this came to light a year to early for Pete?
Put the Hit King in the Hall!!!!
rambling man
Somewhat Deadly
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And Watergate came to light after Nixon was elected...he had the choice to resign or get stripped of his honors. I imagine Rose would have received a similar option
rambling man
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yup
shadowsource
A Flash In The Pain
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Rambling's right -
As I understand it, Rose gambled on baseball games. That's pretty fatal. I would let him in after he dies, with a giant asterisk. And that's not because he attacked little Buddy Harrelson twice in the '73 playoffs.
As I understand it, Rose gambled on baseball games. That's pretty fatal. I would let him in after he dies, with a giant asterisk. And that's not because he attacked little Buddy Harrelson twice in the '73 playoffs.
I'm a Huge Big Red Machine Fan...
And Pete was such a big part of that...Remember in the '76 Series when leadoff hitter Micky wut's his name was threatening to Bunt for a Single and Pete came in right on his Ass and said I Dare 'Ya?...
It's been long enough, even if he did Fuck Up...They also shit on Willie Mays because he worked for a Casino...I think they did the same with Micky Mantle...
He's done his Time...Put him in
And Pete was such a big part of that...Remember in the '76 Series when leadoff hitter Micky wut's his name was threatening to Bunt for a Single and Pete came in right on his Ass and said I Dare 'Ya?...
It's been long enough, even if he did Fuck Up...They also shit on Willie Mays because he worked for a Casino...I think they did the same with Micky Mantle...
He's done his Time...Put him in
G
Guest
Guest
How does Bill do it?
I would like to, if I may, present an argument about Pete that is one that is somewhat unique to myself it can easily be divided into two seperate arguments:
1) I very strongly believe that Pete Rose did not bet on baseball. All of the "evidence" against him comes from an ex-associate who Pete ripped off. Most of it was accepted with very little scrutiny from Dowd or Vincent(Who was Baseballs real man on the case, not Giamatti) Almost all of it is problematic to say the least. Based on the evidence gathered I almost certainly would say that Pete didn't bet on baseball. Irregardless of whether or not he did bet on Baseball the suspension agreement he signed with MLB says "There is no finding that Pete Rose bet on Baseball" the agreement was signed by both parties and as such he has a legal right to be treated as the agreement states.
2) The reason I don't think that Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame is two fold. Firstly I think that when you examine his numbers on a per season average you are left with the stats of a decent, but unspectacular ballplayer. When you look at any of the Big Red Machines successful years 1970, 1975,1976 you would be hard pressed to say that Pete was even the fifth best player on each of those teams vying behind Bench, May, Perez, Morgan or even Griffey. His career stats are simply double what Harvey Kuenn's were who was simply a good ballplayer. There are too many guys who are not in the hall of fame who on any given day were far superior players than Pete. Ken Boyer, Ron Santo and Jim Rice come to mind as guys who would be better HOF's than Rose. The second reason is that Pete Rose violated on of Baseballs most widely held tenets. That you put aside your personal numbers for the good of the team. Pete Rose continued to play himself at first base for many years in order to pass Cobb when he was by far the worst first baseman in baseball. The record is a tainted one. He shouldn't have it and it is a testament to his lack of admirable qualities as a human being that he holds it.
3) A brief final statement. My dear friend Lav pointed out that substance abusers (Ruth, Mantle, Pete Browning) Criminals ( Cobb, Cepeda) and assholes (Dimaggio, Drysdale) have all been elected into the Hall of Fame. That's true and Rambling Man's point is a valid counterpoint. Gambling(This applies more to Joe Jackson than to Rose) is a special and unique crime that affects all of Baseball. However, I would first like to say that Rose was a substance abuser, a criminal and an asshole and as such wins that race by a substantial margin. My other point is that being a genuinely scummy human being hurts your chances. It doesn't, and shouldn't, mean you can't be elected to the Hall, it just means that you've got a tougher time thatn a guy with similar numbers. Dimaggio, Cobb and Ruth were great ballplayers and their indiscretions were overlooked because of their phemonenal skills. Rose would be, at best, a mediocre addition to the hall and as such his lack of decency is a major sticking point.
I would like to, if I may, present an argument about Pete that is one that is somewhat unique to myself it can easily be divided into two seperate arguments:
1) I very strongly believe that Pete Rose did not bet on baseball. All of the "evidence" against him comes from an ex-associate who Pete ripped off. Most of it was accepted with very little scrutiny from Dowd or Vincent(Who was Baseballs real man on the case, not Giamatti) Almost all of it is problematic to say the least. Based on the evidence gathered I almost certainly would say that Pete didn't bet on baseball. Irregardless of whether or not he did bet on Baseball the suspension agreement he signed with MLB says "There is no finding that Pete Rose bet on Baseball" the agreement was signed by both parties and as such he has a legal right to be treated as the agreement states.
2) The reason I don't think that Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame is two fold. Firstly I think that when you examine his numbers on a per season average you are left with the stats of a decent, but unspectacular ballplayer. When you look at any of the Big Red Machines successful years 1970, 1975,1976 you would be hard pressed to say that Pete was even the fifth best player on each of those teams vying behind Bench, May, Perez, Morgan or even Griffey. His career stats are simply double what Harvey Kuenn's were who was simply a good ballplayer. There are too many guys who are not in the hall of fame who on any given day were far superior players than Pete. Ken Boyer, Ron Santo and Jim Rice come to mind as guys who would be better HOF's than Rose. The second reason is that Pete Rose violated on of Baseballs most widely held tenets. That you put aside your personal numbers for the good of the team. Pete Rose continued to play himself at first base for many years in order to pass Cobb when he was by far the worst first baseman in baseball. The record is a tainted one. He shouldn't have it and it is a testament to his lack of admirable qualities as a human being that he holds it.
3) A brief final statement. My dear friend Lav pointed out that substance abusers (Ruth, Mantle, Pete Browning) Criminals ( Cobb, Cepeda) and assholes (Dimaggio, Drysdale) have all been elected into the Hall of Fame. That's true and Rambling Man's point is a valid counterpoint. Gambling(This applies more to Joe Jackson than to Rose) is a special and unique crime that affects all of Baseball. However, I would first like to say that Rose was a substance abuser, a criminal and an asshole and as such wins that race by a substantial margin. My other point is that being a genuinely scummy human being hurts your chances. It doesn't, and shouldn't, mean you can't be elected to the Hall, it just means that you've got a tougher time thatn a guy with similar numbers. Dimaggio, Cobb and Ruth were great ballplayers and their indiscretions were overlooked because of their phemonenal skills. Rose would be, at best, a mediocre addition to the hall and as such his lack of decency is a major sticking point.
lavender said:
And the garage and work and Blah, Blah, Blah.
I'm willing to concede the abilities thing because he sure was a better player than a lot of the guys in the hall. He was a .300 hitter who had some doubles power. It's the kind of guy you'd like to have on your team. I don't think the disgraceful way he piled up personal numbers at the expense of some kid in Triple A is the kind of thing you give a guy credit for.
I say irregardless. What can I say. It's a better word than the "real" one.
Typical Scenario...
Pete Rose beats out an infield single...
Joe Morgan doubles him to third...
Johnny Bench unloads deep into the bullpen...3-0
Pitchers give up 10 runs...
Reds lose 10-9
Like it it or not, Rose got on and couldn't stand to lose (i.e. All Star game)
He may have played too long ala Franco Harris in football to get a record, but how many major league hits do you have?
How many division Titles did they have with Rose?
Pete Rose beats out an infield single...
Joe Morgan doubles him to third...
Johnny Bench unloads deep into the bullpen...3-0
Pitchers give up 10 runs...
Reds lose 10-9
Like it it or not, Rose got on and couldn't stand to lose (i.e. All Star game)
He may have played too long ala Franco Harris in football to get a record, but how many major league hits do you have?
How many division Titles did they have with Rose?
M
miles
Guest
Spore Hysterian
You hardly presented an argument.
Make up your mind. First you say Rose did not bet on baseball, then you call him a criminal.
A player's statistics and broken records are important factors, but probably the most important one is the answer to this question:
was he a dominant player during his era?
The answer is hell, yes!
Sure, he hung around too long just to break the record. Lots of players stick around too long when they aren't chasing a record.
Willie Mays embarrassed himself at the end of his career, as did others with far less talent.
The substance abuse point is moot. Ruth and Mantle were in different eras. Alcohol abuse was winked at in their day. They can't compare with the dumb asses these days who repeatedly get busted for coke while MLB looks the other way. How many lifetime suspensions did Steve Howe get? It was a fucking joke.
If Rose fessed up and showed remorse, MLB would let him come back. Petey is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and his denial is so deep he probably thinks he didn't gamble. His tough-guy persona just won't allow that to happen.
You hardly presented an argument.
Make up your mind. First you say Rose did not bet on baseball, then you call him a criminal.
A player's statistics and broken records are important factors, but probably the most important one is the answer to this question:
was he a dominant player during his era?
The answer is hell, yes!
Sure, he hung around too long just to break the record. Lots of players stick around too long when they aren't chasing a record.
Willie Mays embarrassed himself at the end of his career, as did others with far less talent.
The substance abuse point is moot. Ruth and Mantle were in different eras. Alcohol abuse was winked at in their day. They can't compare with the dumb asses these days who repeatedly get busted for coke while MLB looks the other way. How many lifetime suspensions did Steve Howe get? It was a fucking joke.
If Rose fessed up and showed remorse, MLB would let him come back. Petey is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and his denial is so deep he probably thinks he didn't gamble. His tough-guy persona just won't allow that to happen.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Spore Hysterian
A few things
1) I did present an argument. Pete shouldn't be in, but not because of gambling.
2) I did say Pete didn't gamble and then I called him a criminal. Is that really so hard for your brain to wrap around? His conviction for Tax evasion makes him a criminal. He didn't bet on baseball. The two aren't mutually exclusive, jebus!
3) You don't elect a guy to the hall of fame because he was a "dominant" player. You elect him if his numbers proove he was a great player for a certain amount of time. I don't think Pete Rose qualifies. He was a .300 hitter who didn't steal bases, wasn't a great fielder and had no pop. That's a good, not great player whose contribution to the team was only slightly higher than Griffey's
4) Yes Mays hung around too long. So'd almost every one who ever played. The problem with Rose is that he took advantage of his status as a manager to hurt his team for personal gain. BTW Name another record held by a player who hung around too long?. Aaron hit 35+ homers the year he broke the record. Rickey is still a great player. Rose holds the only major record that is held by someone who held on too long.
miles said:
A few things
1) I did present an argument. Pete shouldn't be in, but not because of gambling.
2) I did say Pete didn't gamble and then I called him a criminal. Is that really so hard for your brain to wrap around? His conviction for Tax evasion makes him a criminal. He didn't bet on baseball. The two aren't mutually exclusive, jebus!
3) You don't elect a guy to the hall of fame because he was a "dominant" player. You elect him if his numbers proove he was a great player for a certain amount of time. I don't think Pete Rose qualifies. He was a .300 hitter who didn't steal bases, wasn't a great fielder and had no pop. That's a good, not great player whose contribution to the team was only slightly higher than Griffey's
4) Yes Mays hung around too long. So'd almost every one who ever played. The problem with Rose is that he took advantage of his status as a manager to hurt his team for personal gain. BTW Name another record held by a player who hung around too long?. Aaron hit 35+ homers the year he broke the record. Rickey is still a great player. Rose holds the only major record that is held by someone who held on too long.
HARDKOREBJ
sweet southern guy
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- Oct 20, 2000
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the legend
i think it is a shame that he is not already in there.he is one of the greatest players of all time.who can say that and not be in there.
i think it is a shame that he is not already in there.he is one of the greatest players of all time.who can say that and not be in there.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Spore Hysterian
Also:
1) Again, I still don't think he did Gamble so I truly hope he doesn't fess up.
2) The substance abuse question is not moot. It will hurt your chances for election into the Hall of Fame. It'll hurt Tim Raines when he comes up for election, it hurts lots of drunks from the past and I seriously doubt Steve Howe will be elected into the Hall. The dumbasses as you so politically put it will be hurt when they come up for election. Pete is hurt by this much like everyone else. The difference between him and Ruth and Mantle is that the two Yankees were truly great Ball Players. Probably the two best of all time.
miles said:
Also:
1) Again, I still don't think he did Gamble so I truly hope he doesn't fess up.
2) The substance abuse question is not moot. It will hurt your chances for election into the Hall of Fame. It'll hurt Tim Raines when he comes up for election, it hurts lots of drunks from the past and I seriously doubt Steve Howe will be elected into the Hall. The dumbasses as you so politically put it will be hurt when they come up for election. Pete is hurt by this much like everyone else. The difference between him and Ruth and Mantle is that the two Yankees were truly great Ball Players. Probably the two best of all time.
Re: the legend
Elequent as ever, eh?
To answer your point I would only ask why you consider him to be one of the greatest players of all time. He was good, I'll give you, but great? When I think of Great Ballplayers I think of Yogi Berra, Joe Morgan and Sandy Koufax. Singles hitters don't usually enter into the discussion.
HARDKOREBJ said:
Elequent as ever, eh?
To answer your point I would only ask why you consider him to be one of the greatest players of all time. He was good, I'll give you, but great? When I think of Great Ballplayers I think of Yogi Berra, Joe Morgan and Sandy Koufax. Singles hitters don't usually enter into the discussion.
M
miles
Guest
Mr. Troll Person
Someone forgot to spray troll repellent. We're infested again.
I'm not going to ask you to leave. I want you to stay. It isn't every day we have someone here with such a refreshing personality.
Keep up the good work, and remember, whenever you think you're making us mad, we're really laughing at you.
You are special!
PS: I'll think of you next time I flush.
Someone forgot to spray troll repellent. We're infested again.
I'm not going to ask you to leave. I want you to stay. It isn't every day we have someone here with such a refreshing personality.
Keep up the good work, and remember, whenever you think you're making us mad, we're really laughing at you.
You are special!
PS: I'll think of you next time I flush.
Re: Mr. Troll Person
You know, Miles, all the above posts as unregistered and Sports Historian were me. Not a troll. Lav figured it out right quick. Flaming might work better than coming up with actual responses but I'm still bang on with what I've said.
miles said:Someone forgot to spray troll repellent. We're infested again.
I'm not going to ask you to leave. I want you to stay. It isn't every day we have someone here with such a refreshing personality.
Keep up the good work, and remember, whenever you think you're making us mad, we're really laughing at you.
You are special!
PS: I'll think of you next time I flush.
You know, Miles, all the above posts as unregistered and Sports Historian were me. Not a troll. Lav figured it out right quick. Flaming might work better than coming up with actual responses but I'm still bang on with what I've said.
Pete Rose was a Sparkplug and Kick your Ass Warrior...
He hit .300 almost every year...Was a Most Valuable Player...I can't believe people are knocking him for getting 200 hits a year, because so many were singles...He wasn't a Mark Maguire...
In his heyday, I'd take Pete on my team any day...Hall of Fame
The politics are becoming typical American bullshit
He hit .300 almost every year...Was a Most Valuable Player...I can't believe people are knocking him for getting 200 hits a year, because so many were singles...He wasn't a Mark Maguire...
In his heyday, I'd take Pete on my team any day...Hall of Fame
The politics are becoming typical American bullshit
