Perfect grammar?

[LexxRuthless]

Why does grammar matter? Well, to answer that you should first ask yourself, “Why am I writing and posting stories here in the first place?” The answer for me and perhaps for you as well, is that I want to share a story with readers who might enjoy and appreciate it. The rules of grammar are supposed to make that communication easier.

Here, just like anywhere else in life, there are rules that we’re all supposed to know and follow. No driving on the sidewalk. Oh, it might amuse you to drive on the sidewalk and watch everyone lose their shit, but most people won’t appreciate it--especially the people on the sidewalk.

Clear use of correct grammar makes it easier for you to clearly communicate ideas that can be complex and convoluted. This genre is particularly tricky at times, and it just makes good grammar that much more useful. You want your readers to be able to follow your story easily as you set it up and introduce your characters. You have a progression that takes the reader along as the events in your story unfold.

If the grammar, punctuation, and spelling make that difficult, the reader can’t simply follow your story and enjoy it. They have to figure out what you’re trying to say. At some point, it becomes more frustrating than enjoyable, and then you are likely to get comments arising out of their frustration. They had read your title and the brief description, and had been looking forward to reading that story. Now they’re just angry because they feel like you did not deliver the story they were promised.

Of course, I’ve gotten the same response for trying to be clever and deliver a “twist” at the end of a story, but that’s an entirely different discussion.

 

[SimonDoom]

Whether or not anyone is an expert is irrelevant. One can tell from reading others' stories and from what others say on these boards that some people know grammar much better than others do, and they have some useful advice to give about it.

The use of the word "perfection" in this thread is an unhelpful distraction. The real point is that many Literotica authors could improve their stories -- and improve reader response to their stories -- to some degree by improving their grammar.[/irus


I don’t see how using the word “perfection” in this thread is an unhelpful distraction. If you are a realist you know you will never be perfect but that doesn’t stop you from striving to be perfect or, to put it another way, be the best you can. Produce the best story you are capable of writing. The top people in the world of sport realise that which is why they still continue to put in hours of practice although they know they will never get everything right. Which is the point I was making in my previous comment.


The person who believes they are perfect is an idiot because only an idiot would believe that are perfect.Does one consider themselves an idiot who believes they are perfect or someone who tries to be the best they can?

My comment wasn't meant as a rebuttal to what you wrote. I was reacting more to the way this thread was begun, as a query about whether grammar must be perfect.

I agree with your general point that as far as grammar, spelling, and punctuation are concerned, you should make a reasonable effort to do the best you can.

My view is that if one pays any attention at all to how stories do at Literotica it's crystal clear that perfect grammar standards are not required. Many stories do very well that have poor spelling, grammar, and punctuation. If you are under the impression that Literotica is governed by grammar perfectionists and monitored by zealous grammar Nazis, your standards are too low, and/or you are not paying attention.

I think talk of "perfection" tends to provoke a reaction that is based on a false choice. We don't have to choose between "grammar perfectionism" on the one hand and "do whatever" on the other. There's a middle ground. There are tools that people who are less confident about their writing mechanics can use to improve their stories, make them more readable, and make them more palatable to the Literotica readership. If they focus on it, they can get higher scores and more positive comments.
Writers should strive for a certain degree of competence. Perfection isn't required, and probably, as you say, isn't attainable. I know grammar pretty well, but despite having published 32 stories I haven't come close to perfection yet. I don't lose sleep over it but I keep trying to do better.

 

[KeithD]

Why would anyone, on this site or any other, be considered to be a grammar expert?

Because they have studied it and have credential in using it? Was this a trick question? Why wouldn't one think there were people using this site who were grammar experts? This is a writing site.

What is germane, I think, is the question of why it would be thought that a random reader/commenter on the site ipso facto knows commercial fiction writing grammar any better than a story's author, or anyone else, does. I posit that most of them don't. I posit that this is true for the unregulated VE system here as well.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

Well as in taking the advice and can report back. I used my first chapter one and the comments on chapter 10 that were provided.

First thing to note is I think grammarly is a pretty fine tool. My main criticism in the very brief pilot is the pricing I think is too expensive. To have the full features it need a subscription that even at an annual cost I think works out too expensive. Fine if I was plugging into everything I ever write but that is not what my Lit writing is.

Having said that it does a very good job of picking up a lot of good points. For me there are a few missing commas for example. A lot of words should be hyphenated (this was a surprise but can agree). Some two words should be one word (again agree but not necessarily a big issue). Tautology comes up a few times which I can understand and it’s a learning thing.

Other decent points it ranks both clarity and engagement. Was pleased to see it report that my chapter 10 was very engaging so that means it hits the right spot with readers I guess. Still not my highest scoring chapter but I have a few 5’s but not from very many voters so I am not reading too much into that anyway.

There is a premium feature which has categories like punctuation in compound / complex sentences; intricate text, word choice, passive voice mis use and incomplete sentences but as I generally write shorter pieces (chapter 10 was 2 lit pages long) there are not many of these. I assume out of 100 but the version of chapter 10 checked was overall score 72.

It can certainly teach you what to watch out for the clarity and engaging rank is pretty good as this is a free assessment anyway.

If I was a full time writer and using it for more than my casual Lit work I may get it but even then I think the subscription approach just grates with me, I’d rather pay a one off price for the features but these days most software is going the SAAS route. I can stomach office 365 just but not for every other piece of software I want to buy in particular when I am not using but paying for it every day.

Still a useful tool for learning and getting some instant feedback on the clarity and engagement of the writing along with the pure grammar flags too.

Brutal One

There was another thread about Grammerly, andI believe Oggsbann (SP?) said not to pay for it. It wasn't designed for fiction, creative writing. It is designed for technical and academic papers.

That being said, I use the paid verion primarily as a spell check because it not only finds misspelled words but incorrect useoge of it's/its they're/theeir/there, and more.

 

[Emirus]

. My comment wasn't meant as a rebuttal to what you wrote. I was reacting more to the way this thread was begun, as a query about whether grammar must be perfect.

I agree with your general point that as far as grammar, spelling, and punctuation are concerned, you should make a reasonable effort to do the best you can.

My view is that if one pays any attention at all to how stories do at Literotica it's crystal clear that perfect grammar standards are not required.

Many stories do very well that have poor spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

If you are under the impression that Literotica is governed by grammar perfectionists and monitored by zealous grammar Nazis, your standards are too low, and/or you are not paying attention.

Writers should strive for a certain degree of competence. Perfection isn't required .

In my opinion I think the majority, but not all, of Lit writers strive to write to the best of their ability. To turn out the best story they can and they do want to improve, not just in respect of the technicalities, but in improving their storytelling. They don’t submit stories because they’ve got nothing better to do.

As I’ve said before I’ve left comments on stories saying “any errors did not spoil my enjoyment of the story.” I would rather read a good story with a few faults than a bad story which is technically “perfect.” I particularly like reading the first story of a new writer to realise I’ve discovered another storyteller.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I would rather read a good story with a few faults than a bad story which is technically “perfect.” I particularly like reading the first story of a new writer to realise I’ve discovered another storyteller.

Well said.

 

[SimonDoom]

I I would rather read a good story with a few faults than a bad story which is technically “perfect.”

Agreed. I think almost everyone would.

 

[SamScribble]

Because they have studied it and have credential in using it? Was this a trick question? Why wouldn't one think there were people using this site who were grammar experts? This is a writing site.

My comment, Keith, was in response to the earlier comments about readers setting the bar. I should perhaps have said: Why would any reader, on this site or any other, be considered to be a grammar expert?

 

[SimonDoom]

My comment, Keith, was in response to the earlier comments about readers setting the bar. I should perhaps have said: Why would any reader, on this site or any other, be considered to be a grammar expert?

Why would it matter?

A reader can have something valuable to say about grammar without being an expert.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Why would it matter?

A reader can have something valuable to say about grammar without being an expert.

True. Many a gourmet cannot poach an egg.

 

[SamScribble]

Why would it matter?

A reader can have something valuable to say about grammar without being an expert.

Can, indeed, Simon. But one doesn't often see such.

For 20 years or so, I had a part-time gig teaching senior business execs how to write using Plain English. The dangerous ones were those who thought that they already wrote using Plain English.

 

[KeithD]

Why would it matter?

A reader can have something valuable to say about grammar without being an expert.

And a whole lot of misguided opinion that takes the writer down blind alleys.

 

[SimonDoom]

And a whole lot of misguided opinion that takes the writer down blind alleys.

OK, so . . . what? What do we take from that?

The writer is responsible for analyzing what the reader says, for whatever it's worth. The writer can take steps through online searching to check what the reader has said and confirm whether it has any value.

A writer who doesn't do that is in no position to complain that Literotica forums can be platforms for bad advice.

Nor is anyone in a good position to say that because bad advice might be given by someone all of us should hold back on saying what we want to say.

 

[KeithD]

OK, so . . . what? What do we take from that?

I take not to put a lot of faith into anonymous comments here when you don't know the commenter well enough to have faith in them--and certainly not unless your own experience and common sense tells you the comment is helpful. Well over half the guidance given right here on the discussion board messes with people's natural voices in writing and is advice to restrict rather than expand freshness and creativity.

What I take from this is that there's no easy button for grammar. Learn it well enough yourself to use it comfortably in the mode you're writing in--most here is in the commercial fiction mode--rather than using every crutch that comes along claiming to be relevant to what you're writing.

What can be taken from here is, yes, use spellcheck on your computer, but use your good old dictionary more often--and know when spell check is going to lead you astray.

What I take from here is whenever "what does the reader here want?" about anything pops up in a post--back out of the post and go back to your own writing for and in your own channel.

 

[Ravenmiller]

Grammarly

Backing up a bit, someone was talking about the cost of grammarly. I've been using Hemingway editor--it's inexpensive and I've found it helpful.

 

[SisterJezabel]

I think most authors on here set out to do the best they can. Some are happy writing about the 47 orgasms the couple has each day over the course of a few thousand words, others take pages and pages to tell a drawn out story. I've edited several stories now where I have had to amend tenses in every other paragraph and insert the correct word- their/there/they're and complement/compliment are prime examples.

Whilst I set the bar high for myself, and fail a lot of the time, I am way more lenient on people for whom English is a second, third, fourth etc language and for people who can get a story across despite their writing style. I've strummed my clit to many a theme from a story, despite the story being poorly written, because it was able to awake something in me that I could take away from it.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

Backing up a bit, someone was talking about the cost of grammarly. I've been using Hemingway editor--it's inexpensive and I've found it helpful.

Hemingway is great. I use both. Hemingway is helpful at finding ly words, passive voice, run on sentences, and complex phrasing. I do want to buy it but haven't yet.

Grammerly finds missing and extraneous commas, misspelled words, incorrect word usage, hyphanates.

There is little overlap on the free side. If Hemingway which is cheaper and a one time fee instead of a subscription does the rest after you pay then I will stop using Grammerly.

I just ran one story through both. I do Hemmingway first, and grammerly caught a bunch of typos, spacing errors and other items Hemmingway did not flag.

 

[Brutal_One]

Backing up a bit, someone was talking about the cost of grammarly. I've been using Hemingway editor--it's inexpensive and I've found it helpful.

It appears that grammarly can be used for free to catch the basic grammar points and handily points them out and you can ‘accept’ the corrections so similar if you are used to MS word ‘track changes’ and accept / reject.

I find the clarity assessment and engaging assessment very useful.

It seems these checks and features are free. I am not using the keyboard plug in. As mentioned my main writing app is pages on iPad - basic word processing. I am happy not to have grammarly plug in directly but use as a sense check and correction tool to basically get the basic grammar correct, there are a lot of very simple things particularly around conversation grammar. Over time I will learn to write properly in writing.

The additional paid features for sure I could see help someone serious about writing and wanting to get published. That is not my intention so I would never consider the paid features - as a learning tool though it’s great.

Brutal One