Penn State Report

[sr71plt]

The governor selects the board of visitors. That's what I was talking about. In my opinion, the further you can separate state politics from universities, the better. I understand that this isn't 100% possible in the case of public universities, but I mentioned it because I don't think having Penn State more under the control of Pennsylvania politics would make the situation any better.

But yes, I agree, the governor of VA should have stepped in earlier . . . but it should never have happened in the first place, and might not have happened if the governor hadn't had sole power to hand-pick the visitors.

At the heart of the UVa problem is big bucks donors--needed now because the state isn't stepping up to pay its supposed share of running a state school.

(And it was the governor of the other party who picked the rector who went rogue--four years ago.)

The governor doesn't have sole power, by the way. The governor proposes; the legislature confirms (we're hoping that one of his new appointments--the old rector--gets canned by the legislature). That's still state government, but it isn't a single person. There's one good result of the UVa fiasco. The governor was forced to appoint some new board members on merit and competence rather than bank checks.

 

[someoneyouknow]

Something to consider: people are saying that Joe's statue should be taken down because of what happened. Fair enough.

If that's the case, then the millions he and his wife gave to the University, to the library, to everything, needs to be returned as well. If you're not going to honor what he did for you over the decades, then you certainly don't want to keep his money.

 

[sr71plt]

Naw. He wasn't honorable one day and a his-reputation-more-important-than-children's-lives the next day. He had the money in the first place because he was willing to be a sleazebag to keep it coming. Statue down. As an object lesson (not least to those muddleheaded folks who made him a god to begin with).

Football is a game. Football coaches aren't gods. And more than maybe colleges should go back to focusing on education.

 

[lovecraft68]

Something to consider: people are saying that Joe's statue should be taken down because of what happened. Fair enough.

If that's the case, then the millions he and his wife gave to the University, to the library, to everything, needs to be returned as well. If you're not going to honor what he did for you over the decades, then you certainly don't want to keep his money.

Correct me if I'm wrong(I may be) but where did Joe get the millions he gave to the school? How exactly did Joe get rich? I think it was coaching said school, so in effect he "gave back"

 

[bashfullyshameless]

Naw. He wasn't honorable one day and a his-reputation-more-important-than-children's-lives the next day. He had the money in the first place because he was willing to be a sleazebag to keep it coming. Statue down. As an object lesson (not least to those muddleheaded folks who made him a god to begin with).

Football is a game. Football coaches aren't gods. And more than maybe colleges should go back to focusing on education.

Exactly what sr71plt says.

That statue should be torn down and pounded to fucking dust.

 

[PennLady]

Something to consider: people are saying that Joe's statue should be taken down because of what happened. Fair enough.

If that's the case, then the millions he and his wife gave to the University, to the library, to everything, needs to be returned as well. If you're not going to honor what he did for you over the decades, then you certainly don't want to keep his money.

From what I've read, Paterno didn't just give the university all that money. It sounded like he helped raise at least some of it, so that money would be from other donors. Whether that should be returned to those donors I don't know, nor do I know if it would be feasible or practical.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sad to say, if they decide to tear this down (which I would be in favor of) there will be a bunch of teary eyed looney tunes chaining themselves to it.

That's Joe Pa we're talking about! It's like fucking Guyana down there and those people have been drinking Kool Aid a long time.

This happened really fast for Joe, talk about going from Sugar to shit.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

If anyone is interested, here is a link to an article on the report on PSU released today by the committee led by Louis Freeh.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20120712_Report_due_today_on_Penn_State__Sandusky.html

If you go to www.philly.com, it is the main story and there is a link on the main page to the full text of the report.

This is not about the Sandusky case per se; it is about the actions, or inactions, of Penn State in responding (or not) to various allegations.

Thanks, PL.

The copy of the report at the link you give doesn't seem to be easily downloadable. The Freeh Report can be downloaded from http://thefreehreportonpsu.com/

 

[PennLady]

Thanks, PL.

The copy of the report at the link you give doesn't seem to be easily downloadable. The Freeh Report can be downloaded from http://thefreehreportonpsu.com/

Thanks, Carlus. By the time I went to post the other links, they'd changed it from the one you list to the one local to the paper.

 

[someoneyouknow]

From what I've read, Paterno didn't just give the university all that money. It sounded like he helped raise at least some of it, so that money would be from other donors. Whether that should be returned to those donors I don't know, nor do I know if it would be feasible or practical.

And that's my point. Apparently Joe is/was this evil person who either deliberately or unintentionally covered up what was happening and now everyone wants to get rid of his memory.

But apparently it's ok to keep the money he gave (let's exclude his fundraising efforts) to the University.

If you're going to wipe him from the mural(s) and tear down the statue, then you have to not be hypocritical and give back the money he personally gave.

 

[sr71plt]

I think I'd put his statue in an Italian restaurant in State College--in one of those striip malls along the highway that was built in the 50s. The kind with a name like Mama Mia's and with painted plaster gnomes lining the parking lot and headless Venus statues on white, plaster, fluted columns on either side of the entrance door. He could stand right next to the door to the kitchen, where he'd be banged a bit every time they pushed that door open. They could put him in a little pond where patrons of the idol could come and rub his tummy and throw pennies in the pond to ensure their college football team won Saturday afternoon. Maybe they could even make a fountain out of him.

 

[trysail]

The mother of all hypocrites. What a fuckin' phony.

I must admit I kept reading through this to see where the erotica started--and didn't find it. Glad the feedback was excellent though.

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/hypocrisy-meter.gif​

Why on earth do you see the need to post this here? What does this have to do with erotica?

 

[DeeZire]

I wonder how many athletes will, out of respect for the victims, withdraw from the Penn State football program and go elsewhere?

 

[sr71plt]

I wonder how many athletes will, out of respect for the victims, withdraw from the Penn State football program and go elsewhere?

Zero, I imagine. Being in football at the university level is already having started a career path. I imagine some will transfer to other schools, but it will be to go where they don't have to fight the bad reputation--and possibility of program curtailment--that Penn State now has.

 

[scorallover]

I wonder how many athletes will, out of respect for the victims, withdraw from the Penn State football program and go elsewhere?

Why should they?

I'm being serious here. I have heard so much about how the people of PSU should be ashamed and burn their degrees and never donate money to their school. Well guess what, most people at PSU didn't know about this crap. The same goes for those currently there. Yes, what happened was beyond disgusting, but these people were not involved.

According to the logic I'm hearing from people, after WWII We should have wiped Germany from the map. Because what the Nazis did was hundreds, if not thousands of times worse than this. Forget that there were innocent Germans, they all need to be gone. And this is coming from someone who lost a relative to the Nazis because of his last name, so I am always very careful about drawing comparisons.

 

[DeeZire]

Why should they?

For the same reason I detour around dog shit when I'm out taking a walk - I don't want to be stuck with the stink for the rest of the day.

I'm being serious here. I have heard so much about how the people of PSU should be ashamed and burn their degrees and never donate money to their school. Well guess what, most people at PSU didn't know about this crap. The same goes for those currently there. Yes, what happened was beyond disgusting, but these people were not involved.

Does the buck stop anywhere? Personally, I think college sports is the exact opposite of character building. In sports you must win, regardless of the cost. Break the rules as much as possible as long as you don't get caught. Take your opponent out of the game, even if it takes a career ending injury to do it. What kind of character does that build? The Sandusky cover up is just an extension of that philosophy. They were still covering it up last year during the grand jury proceedings. To just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well" is a cop out. There must be consequences for the failure of the sports program to maintain any semblance of integrity. One way to initiate those consequences is to refuse to participate in it.

According to the logic I'm hearing from people, after WWII We should have wiped Germany from the map. Because what the Nazis did was hundreds, if not thousands of times worse than this. Forget that there were innocent Germans, they all need to be gone. And this is coming from someone who lost a relative to the Nazis because of his last name, so I am always very careful about drawing comparisons.

That's not my logic. I don't endorse boycotting Penn State College as a whole, I'm talking about a cooling off period for the football program only, so it can reflect on its failures and take responsibility for its actions. These football programs must learn that the coverup of a crime will result in more serious consequences than the crime itself. Obviously, Penn State still hasn't learned that lesson. If it had, it would have suspended its football program as soon as the scandal broke.

 

[sr71plt]

No, DeeZire, I don't think members of the Penn State football team or the students (or the faculty) will see themselves as guilty of and/or implicated in any of this. If they pull away from Penn State it will be to escape the notariety, but I don't see that they will feel the least bit implicated in the notariety personally (unless, of course, they make excuses for anyone involved and continue to treat Paterno like a god.)

They can see the circumstances as horrendous without drinking the Kool-Aid for something they weren't personally involved in. Many of them can probably see Penn State for what it's supposed to be--and educational institution where they are working toward a professional degree.

What you say in your most recent posting is what you are suggesting isn't the same as you suggested in the previous post. The last post talks about institutional responsibility; the previous one talks about personal responsibility. That's why you got the reactions you got. Just going to or working at Penn State--or even being on the football team--doesn't implicate these people in the either the crimes or the scandal there.

 

[scorallover]

For the same reason I detour around dog shit when I'm out taking a walk - I don't want to be stuck with the stink for the rest of the day.



Does the buck stop anywhere? Personally, I think college sports is the exact opposite of character building. In sports you must win, regardless of the cost. Break the rules as much as possible as long as you don't get caught. Take your opponent out of the game, even if it takes a career ending injury to do it. What kind of character does that build? The Sandusky cover up is just an extension of that philosophy. They were still covering it up last year during the grand jury proceedings. To just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well" is a cop out. There must be consequences for the failure of the sports program to maintain any semblance of integrity. One way to initiate those consequences is to refuse to participate in it.



That's not my logic. I don't endorse boycotting Penn State College as a whole, I'm talking about a cooling off period for the football program only, so it can reflect on its failures and take responsibility for its actions. These football programs must learn that the coverup of a crime will result in more serious consequences than the crime itself. Obviously, Penn State still hasn't learned that lesson. If it had, it would have suspended its football program as soon as the scandal broke.

You just condemned every person at PSU with your first statement. If they weren't involved why would they have the stain of this associated with them? If someone at your workplace commits the same crime are you going to quit just because they worked for the same company? It is the exact same thing that you're asking these young men to do.

Sports can be abused, just like wall street was abused. That doesn't mean that there isn't any good to be found there. The business world is full of people who are out to make the most money at any cost. Does that mean we shut down the stock exchanges of the world?

Life is about learning and I admire any young man that decides to go to PSU even though they understand the stigma they are going to live with. That takes true courage. Turning and running from something because it is unpopular is the easy way out.

 

[sr71plt]

Life is about learning and I admire any young man that decides to go to PSU even though they understand the stigma they are going to live with. That takes true courage. Turning and running from something because it is unpopular is the easy way out.

I'm not sure I do. You can get just as good an education, if not better, at a much cheaper school (perhaps one that doesn't glorify football so much and therefore pays big bucks for it). I think someone paying the Penn State tuition is just a little bit of a chump. (That comes from doing a pretty deep comparison between Penn State and my own UVa because of what various legacy people in my family are proposing to steer my granddaughters to--hoping, I'm sure, that I will help foot the bill. Not at Penn State, I won't.)

 

[DeeZire]

You just condemned every person at PSU with your first statement. If they weren't involved why would they have the stain of this associated with them? If someone at your workplace commits the same crime are you going to quit just because they worked for the same company? It is the exact same thing that you're asking these young men to do.

Every person at PSU? I'm suggesting that if I was in the Penn State football program, I'd withdraw. That's got nothing to do with every person at PSU, that's between me, my conscience, and the PSU football program. I don't care what the rest of the PSU students do (unless they stage a riot in support of Jo Pa like they did when the scandal broke. Hopefully, those idiots were representative of a minority of the student body, because if they were representative of the majority, than to hell with them all.)

Sports can be abused, just like wall street was abused. That doesn't mean that there isn't any good to be found there. The business world is full of people who are out to make the most money at any cost. Does that mean we shut down the stock exchanges of the world?

No, but it does mean that we, as consumers, can make choices by boycotting specific companies that engage in horrible business practices. That's why I don't shop at Walmart, and that's why I'm paying double for my Medicare Part D. The Walmart plan was half the cost, but I won't go there. I may be biting off my nose to spite my face, but at least I'm making an effort to affect positive change in the business world.

Life is about learning and I admire any young man that decides to go to PSU even though they understand the stigma they are going to live with. That takes true courage. Turning and running from something because it is unpopular is the easy way out.

Turning and running is not the same as turning away, as explained above. I appreciate your enthusiasm for college sports. I don't share that enthusiasm, mainly because of the reasons mentioned earlier. If I did, I'd probably be more amenable to your POV. No biggie. I've always been a little too idealistic for my own good, as many AH longtimers can attest to.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm suggesting that if I was in the Penn State football program, I'd withdraw.

Oh, come on now. That rolls off the tongue entirely too easily--based on the probable fact that you didn't bust your buns through junior high and high school to become a standout football player as a means to pay for your college education--and perhaps give you a career after that--and not just in football but in other businesses where doors/opportunites open to you because you were on the Penn State football team.

If I was a Penn State football player, I'd, yes, be looking for another berth--but it would need to be as advantageous as my prospects at Penn State. Because I'm not playing football at Penn State just because it's a fun game--and I didn't have damn thing to do with the crimes and scandal at Penn State.

I might even say I did it to take the high road as you propose (although I wouldn't really see any reason why I should have to be expected to take any road concerning it). But that wouldn't be the real reason I did it (unless I was pretty lamebrained about the total picture of getting set up in life and the real nature of personal responsibility.)

Shall we all join hands and sing "Kumbaya" now?

 

[DeeZire]

....Shall we all join hands and sing "Kumbaya" now?

I never liked Kumbaya.

You make a good point about the football player's self interest being more important than any moral considerations about supporting a corrupt athletic program. That football player has a bright future in the business world - and that football player is an example of why the business world is so fucked up. Our entire country is going down the tubes because "self interest" has replaced integrity as a moral value., and because no one feels they need to take responsibility for the society in which we live. "The Walton family owns more wealth than the bottom 40% of America? Not my problem. I save money by going there." If everyone in America took the position that they would only support corporations that pay a living wage, we would have no wealth inequality problem, but that ain't gonna happen, because Americans don't have the critical thinking skills to make that connection.

See what I mean? Too idealistic for my own good. Have a nice evening. I can only spend so much time avoiding work before my deadlines catch up with me.

 

[sr71plt]

IYou make a good point about the football player's self interest being more important than any moral considerations about supporting a corrupt athletic program.

You just don't get it. A. The football player has no moral obligation; the football player is not personally involved. Unless he knew of what Paterno or any other Penn State football program individual was doing/had done (not inside the current program--but in relationship to a coach not in the program for more than the last decade), he has zero, nada, zilch in terms of involvement/guilt. And B. the football player isn't playing for the same athletic program that had any involvement in this if he chooses to stay at Penn State.

 

[sr71plt]

The statue is down and the NCAA has slapped Penn State with the following:

--$60 million fine (that will keep the well-heeled alumni Paterno fanatics busy raising penalty money).

--Out of the football post season for 4 years (assuming it could make it there with all else that was levied).

--for 4 years can only have 20 football scholarships--and those at less-than-normal limits.

--school on sports probation for 5 years.

--Any current or incoming football players are free to transfer immediately.

NCAA president Mark Emmert: "Football will never again be placed ahead of educationg, nurturing, and protecting young people."

 

[PennLady]

NCAA president Mark Emmert: "Football will never again be placed ahead of educationg, nurturing, and protecting young people."

A line like that, coming from the head of an organization that will toss players out for an illegal t-shirt, is just rich. How about educating and nurturing your athletes, Mr Emmert? The ones who bring in all your money?

But I can't say I disagree with the penalties assessed.