Pax Americana......Europa...

Lost Cause

It's a wrap!
Joined
Oct 7, 2001
Posts
30,949
And you people thought we were nuts, I told you this was your future! Enjoy!

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The blueprint for a new constitution for Europe, unveiled yesterday, paves the way for sweeping changes to the EU but provoked instant British opposition by suggesting the bloc could be renamed "United States of Europe".

Published by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, the former French president who is chairing an inquiry into the future of Europe, the document raises the prospect of a massive overhaul of the EU to accommodate up to 10 new countries due to join in 2004. It lists three possible titles besides the European Union. They are: European Community, the United States of Europe, and United Europe.

The outline document also suggests that all Europeans should be given the right to citizenship of the EU as well as their member states.


Mr Giscard's text would open the way for many changes that would entrench the power of nation states.

The blueprint carefully leaves the most sensitive decisions for later. It has been billed as a "skeleton" constitution because it only sets out a framework, listing 46 articles and going into little detail. But changes that could be ushered in include the creation of a powerful new president of the EU who would report to national leaders, a congress of national and European parliamentarians, and an exit clause to allow countries to quit the EU.

The text outlines plans to give the EU the legal power to sign treaties and sit on international bodies but also says any competence "not conferred on the Union by the constitution rests with the member state". There is only one reference to powers being exercised on a "federal basis"and that is not seen as a threat by British officials.

Dual citizenship would confer rights including free movement, residence, voting powers and freedom to stand as a candidate in local elections and elections to the European Parliament.

Mr Giscard's convention of 105 national and European parliamentarians is drawing up a draft constitution that is to be recommended to EU heads of government next year. They alone can decide on a new treaty.

Part of the group's job is to simplify Europe's byzantine structures. One element of this is the fusion of the two treaties that set in place two entities: the European Community and the European Union. That process leaves open the possibility of a name change and Mr Giscard has made clear his preference for "United Europe".

Publication of the document marks the beginning of a battle over the all-important detail. The text prompted mixed reactions from the British political parties represented on the convention. Linda McAvan, a Labour Member of the European Parliament, said: "The Euro- realists are winning ... Giscard has struck a good balance."

THE MAIN POINTS

• European Community/ European Union/United States of Europe/United Europe would be created.

• Its objectives would include economic and social cohesion, protection of common values, high employment, liberty, security and justice, foreign policy.

• The union would have "legal personality", with the power to sign treaties and take a seat on international bodies such as the United Nations.

• Union citizenship would be established and defined, giving rights of free movement, residence and voting in the union and diplomatic protection in other countries.


*Adolph Hitler would be proud, this was originally his idea! :D
 
Now some might say that a Europe, united for the first time since 1811, living in peace and prosperity with common humanitarian values is a good thing.

Fear the competition.
 
Over the years we have become used to loony ideas coming out of Europe. Most disappear without trace (straight bananas being one) others go to the Council of Ministers and are watered down so much as to be of little effect.

If the boy Blair thinks he can push this through ignoring Parliament and the people, boy has he got another thought coming!
 
Lost Cause said:
...The blueprint for a new constitution for Europe, unveiled yesterday...

I wouldn't mind a link...
*Adolph Hitler would be proud, this was originally his idea! :D
Do you really think what you've posted ? If so, I'd say you know nothing about that sad part of European/German history....
 
A United Europe was Hitler's Plan......

Dig a little deeper in your history books, my Father, and his Brothers lived it I learned history from the direct participants! Some of my relatives fought with the other side too. Once all "states" are consolidated in power, it'll only take another smooth talking socialist to goosestep your asses into oblivion again. I'm amazed on how often that part of the world repeats it's bloody mistakes over and over! :D
 
I was had a similar discussion with some friends about this a few months ago, only then it was a hypothetical United Europe and what would be the result of Germans, Dutch, British, Irish, French etc would all getting along together.

'An unlikely prospect,' I said.

'But they can,' my friend insisted. 'We've already seen the result of Euorpean citizens mixing together with no national borders between them. It's called America.'

'And are you still in favour of greater European integration?' he added.
 
History repeated.....

To say that the European Community was based on the Nazi version of Europe or that there are parallels would be an understatement. The entire "European" enterprise since the founding of the European Coal and Steel Community in 1951 (and given an enormous boost by the Maastricht Treaty on European Union) is an exact replica of the Nazis' ideas for Europe. If there is a major difference it is that unlike Monsieur Delors, Hitler was at least elected by universal franchise, and by 1942 Hitler spoke for far more (albeit conquered) countries than does the EU today.

But the most significant common thread running through both the Nazi and modern versions of the European State is the contempt for "the English system" - ie a belief in democratic government based on the individual, the nation state and free international trade. The defeat of Hitler and Mussolini was far more significant for its social and economic implications than for its military triumph. The ideas of collectivism, statism, trade protectionism and corporatism are not so physically apparent as the blitz and marching armies, which is why they have so successfully re-established themselves in Europe, under the guise of the "European" Union.

All together now, "Sieg"...:D
 
The New Holy Roman Empire (NHRE) already has a new flag...

A white embroidered dove on a white field with white fringes.
 
I'm all for it. A country like France has lived up it's useful purpose as a nation and proven not to be responsible enough to continue under it's own direction. We should rename them East Russia, or vice versa, Western France...
 
United States Of Europe? Nah.

I think it should be called 'Great Briton.'

Has a nice ring to it.

:)
 
Re: A United Europe was Hitler's Plan......

Lost Cause said:
Dig a little deeper in your history books, my Father, and his Brothers lived it I learned history from the direct participants! Some of my relatives fought with the other side too. Once all "states" are consolidated in power, it'll only take another smooth talking socialist to goosestep your asses into oblivion again. I'm amazed on how often that part of the world repeats it's bloody mistakes over and over! :D

Just because my Granddad was born 1907, my father was born 1935 under Hitler, doesn't make them history scientists or experts though I've always appreciated their personal view...

Hitler and the Nazis wanted to overtake Europe in order to enslave its citizens. With a dictator on top and a centralistic government to execute undivided power. The different regions not represented bottom-up but opressed top-down by Governors.
And most of all: German Nazis in all the keypositions making sure the Aryans ability to gain more and more power.

I really don't see the similarity. A federalistic system, divided power, a european and national parliaments to represent the citizens in all those different regions. What's wrong with that ?
And just by all those understandable reactions, by all kinds of people not only British, you can see the important difference. There won't be any other attempt to establish a "supreme race".

And how this Europe is called is just a side effect in my POV.

If you'd ask SIN he'd probably say NHRE (New Holy Roman Empire) :D

edited to say: see SIN I know you by know
 
"In Europe, they first came for the Czhecks and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Czeck," said the Rev. Martin Niemöller. "Then they came for the Polish and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Pollack. Then they came for the French. I didn't speak up because I have always detested the fawking French. Then they came for us Germans and there was no one left to speak except the fawking Americans."

The Rev. Niemöller spent time in one of the concentration camps.
 
Oh yeah, you Americans showed up for a few days toward the end, didn't you? You must have received those invitations late or something :p
 
SINthysist said:
"In Europe, they first came for the Czhecks and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Czeck," said the Rev. Martin Niemöller. "Then they came for the Polish and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Pollack. Then they came for the French. I didn't speak up because I have always detested the fawking French. Then they came for us Germans and there was no one left to speak except the fawking Americans."

The Rev. Niemöller spent time in one of the concentration camps.

I thought the last bit went something like:

"and then they came for me but there was no one left to speak up for me."

And that bit about detesting the french is wrong too.
 
We really DID intend on getting their in time to help the poor Czeck Students...







["In Germany, they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist," said the Rev. Martin Niemöller. "Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics. I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak up."
The Rev. Niemöller spent time in one of the concentration camps.]

:D
 
SINthysist said:
US Postal Service...
Geeze, what ever happened to personal responsibility?

Yeah, yeah, don't tell me - the Democrats - right? ;)
 
The people personally responsible for all that are dead (and Democrats, so they're STILL voting :) ) elsewise, I'd be holding them PERSONALLY ACCOUNTABLE.

Now look at me, I'm on the side of coming to the rescue...
 
SINthysist said:
The New Holy Roman Empire (NHRE) already has a new flag...

A white embroidered dove on a white field with white fringes.

Why should the NHRE adopt the WWII Italian Military Banner ?

oh wait...roman=italian ! Now i see.
 
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