Patriotism

[dr_mabeuse]

I’ve been thinking a lot about patriotism lately, and what it is. It’s a confusing concept.

It assumes that you have an inherent loyalty to the place where you were born that goes beyond the nostaligiac. But that’s not really patriotism, that’s chauvinism: the unexamined assumption of superiority of one’s attitudes. That’s no more elevated a concept than rooting for your high school or town simpy because that’s where you go to chool or live, which is basically regional chauvinism or boosterism. Hardly a lofty ideal.

I thought that maybe patriotism is a kind of gratitude for the nation that raised you. But then, if that country raised you badly, are you justified in not being patriotic?

Then I thought that maybe it’s loyalty to the ones you love: to your family and friends. But what if your circle of friends is international? I think that I have more in common with people here who are not of my country than I do with a lot of my countrymen, so that doesn’t work.

Maybe you’re loyal to the ideals and shared culture of the place you’re born, but then that doesn’t quite work either, because just about every country on earth espouses noble and lofty ideals of one sort of another, and I don’t think anthropologists have found any examples of a culture anywhere where the people ho shared it thought it sucked. People tend to deify what their used to as being somehow divinely sanctioned.

Besides, in my case the last election makes me think that a mojority of my countrymen don't really share my values and ideals. So where does that leave me? Is it my duty to try and change their minds? Or should I just forget my own ideals and adopt theirs? Or should I be thinking about finding a new place to live?

So my question is, just what is it you love when you say you’re a patriot?

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

So my question is, just what is it you love when you say you’re a patriot?

I don't know. I'm not a patriot (American football is a stupid game).

 

[rgraham666]

My loyalty is, and always will be, to my species.

As such I will support anything that will improve the lives of the individuals that make up our species. And oppose anything that makes those lives worse.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I’ve been thinking a lot about patriotism lately, and what it is. It’s a confusing concept.

It assumes that you have an inherent loyalty to the place where you were born that goes beyond the nostaligiac. But that’s not really patriotism, that’s chauvinism: the unexamined assumption of superiority of one’s attitudes. That’s no more elevated a concept than rooting for your high school or town simpy because that’s where you go to chool or live, which is basically regional chauvinism or boosterism. Hardly a lofty ideal.

I thought that maybe patriotism is a kind of gratitude for the nation that raised you. But then, if that country raised you badly, are you justified in not being patriotic?

Then I thought that maybe it’s loyalty to the ones you love: to your family and friends. But what if your circle of friends is international? I think that I have more in common with people here who are not of my country than I do with a lot of my countrymen, so that doesn’t work.

Maybe you’re loyal to the ideals and shared culture of the place you’re born, but then that doesn’t quite work either, because just about every country on earth espouses noble and lofty ideals of one sort of another, and I don’t think anthropologists have found any examples of a culture anywhere where the people ho shared it thought it sucked. People tend to deify what their used to as being somehow divinely sanctioned.

Besides, in my case the last election makes me think that a mojority of my countrymen don't really share my values and ideals. So where does that leave me? Is it my duty to try and change their minds? Or should I just forget my own ideals and adopt theirs? Or should I be thinking about finding a new place to live?

So my question is, just what is it you love when you say you’re a patriot?

---dr.M.

Patriotism is different for different folks doc.

Love of your country, not so much of the very ground you stand upon, but of the ideals your country represents is one way of looking at it. At base, patriotism is the external display of nationalism. It's the driving force that your country calls upon when threatened to unite the populace and defend itself.

An election, no matter how divisive, should not be grounds to have you questioning your patriotism or that of others. An election is an internal dispute, one settled by the ballot rather than the gun. the fact that we hold elections and that the majority wins, is one of the grounds for believeing in your country.

There are a lot of people on this borad who do not hold the same ideals I do, nor even very close proximities in some cases. Some of those farthest from my world view are my very best friends. You don't have to agree with me to be my friend nor do you have to parrot my views to have my respect.

The majority of your fellow countrymen do hold some ideals in common with you. We by and large, believe in represenative democracy and agree that disputes in world view can be settled in the courts and through elections. When you take your very defined ideals and apply them, you might find yourself in the minority, likely we all do, as no two people agree on everything. But in the generalities we mostly agree.

Your views are very liberal. My views are very conservative. Yet, neither of us is stockpiling guns and ammunition to settle it. the vast majority of your alienation is in the specific, while you fail to see the unity that is in the general.

I'm patriotic, I love my country and despite it's weaknesses, there is no place I would rather live. I think you love your country no less, you simply disagree with much that is being done by the government in place at this time. But even in disagreeing, you are agreeing with the majority, in that you accept it, exercise your right to voice your displeasure, and hope to see it changed when the next election rolls around.

-Colly

 

[thebullet]

I don't know. I'm not a patriot (American football is a stupid game).

Them's fightin' words. I suppose you prefer watching a dozen boys in shorts running up and down the field. If there are three goals scored it's a rout.

That's the prissy kind of game we would expect from the Brits.

How's that for patriotism?

As Johnson said: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . I will support anything that will improve the lives of the individuals that make up our species. And oppose anything that makes those lives worse.

So your patriotism is variable.

At one time you would have been in favor of the internal combustion engine, at a later date, not.

 

[Liar]

Originally posted by dr_mabeuse
I’ve been thinking a lot about patriotism lately, and what it is. It’s a confusing concept.
Sure is.


I thought that maybe patriotism is a kind of gratitude for the nation that raised you. But then, if that country raised you badly, are you justified in not being patriotic?
My Ma and Pa raised me.


So my question is, just what is it you love when you say you’re a patriot?
Can't help you there doc. Since I ain't no patriot. The only reason I give a flying fart about Sweden is because my apartment is located in it and I pay taxes here.

The exception is sports. But that's just because it's more fun if you're rooting for somebody.

#L

 

[gauchecritic]

Well Zoot, as is often the case, you answered your own question here: should I be thinking about finding a new place to live?


Your patriotism is such that it makes you ask yourself this question.

As someone famous said, with slightly different words (I mean I can't remember)

The duty of a citizen is to question (oppose?) his Government.

Substitute people or country or culture for the word Government and there you have it.

Yes, you should always be thinking about new places to live otherwise you would just be settling for what others force on you.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

My post on thiis page sums up my viewpoints on both what patriotism really means and what I think about what "patriotism" has been perverted to mean in the War of Rhetoric:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=301394&pagenumber=5

 

[fifty5]

I’ve been thinking a lot about patriotism lately, and what it is. It’s a confusing concept.
...
So my question is, just what is it you love when you say you’re a patriot?

---dr.M.

I read somewhere in some context about a hierarchy of loyalty: first to one's own family, then to one's friends (mostly local), then to one's town, then county, then country - a sequence that progressively increases in area.

That take on things tickles my fancy. In these days of the internet - and for much longer, days of international exchanges (including Perdy's visit from the US to West Yorkshire) - my own loyalty is more to individuals from where-ever, than to those pillocks 'down south' who rule (and forecast the weather for) my country - I feel a greater empathy with Brussels than with London.

As I extrapolate that, 'patriotism' is more of a sin than a virtue.

 

[cantdog]

My attitude is already fairly clearly articulated. I feel a sort of patriotism which is at once more profound and less contentious. It is informed by history.

I feel tied to the history of humanity as a whole; and I feel myself a participant in the Western civilization. I feel I have a stake in it because of my education in the classics and in its history. I feel like an alien in Morocco much more than I do in Québec, for example. I have read the history of the area, but it is always that of another civilization.

The same with the U.S. I was raised to identify with it, I was raised to believe that there is a duty to act as a citizen of it. In a republic, a citizen is not a passive serf who allows others to rule her. She is instead a participant. The actions of the republic as a whole are the responsibility of the citizen, and I was brought up to think of myself in that role.

I am therefore engaged in several large projects. I am furthering the country, participating in a larger culture, and taking an interest in all mankind and their welfare.

The roles are mine by virtue of being here, I suppose, which by itself does sound like a poor reason for doing anything. But being here is more complex than simple location at a point in time when I had a birth canal around my head. It is a process of coming to maturity in a context of history and education.

This is a far cry from "love of country," as it is usually expressed. I don't see the system of nations in the world as a large sports arena, where I am supposed to root for one or another team. But if Western culture is making a misstep, I feel entitled to point it out. If the country is acting rashly, I feel a duty, even, not to shrug it off.

cantdog

 

[SeaCat]

Damn it Doc, you got me to thinking about this right at bedtime.

At one time I thought Patriotism was the love of my country. Time and several injuries took care of that concept. (It's not that I don't love my country, it is not an unconditional love.)

Now my idea of patriotism is the idea that I am willing to defend my country, and it's citizens. (The only grouping which has a stronger call on me is my family, but that has to do with family honor and not patriotism.)

Sorry this was kind of rambling, and probably isn't worded right, but you caught me when I'm almost asleep. Patriotism is not an easy thing to describe.

Cat

 

[nushu2]

As an outsider, with a good view into America, I see America as a place of ferocious individualism. Mostly, that's a virtue but it has it's pitfalls. Other countries have similar freedoms but nowhere else is freedom so extolled. Enjoy your freedom to be an individual.

Canada is not much different but with a slight touch of social obligation. I'm speaking in generalities, of course. I don't consider myself patriotic but I'm proud to drink Canadian beer. Just glad I'm not an American for the next four years.

 

[thebullet]

Just glad I'm not an American for the next four years.

Me too! Oh, shit, I am an American for the next four years!

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

My family has an extremely long tradition of military service during both peace and war time, serving as officers of the Court, and serving the American people politically. I think a patriot is someone who is willing to, under necessary circumstance, sacrifice for the protection, welfare, and happiness of their country. Very, very few people are true patriots, in my opinion. It is a noble thing, and I find it shameful that some believe otherwise.

 

[cantdog]

You are right again, Joe. But as with many other good things-- honor, patriotism, duty, Allah, the Christ-- so much of the evil of the world is done in their name. Patriotism comes as a higher calling to a man, lifts him out of the muck of his egotism to altruistic sacrifice. But it is too limited. Where do the patriots get the word that the line is drawn just there? The whole world is worthy of that sacrifice. But the patriot is yet too narrow for that.

It only takes one nation to cause a war. And when it does so, it is always patriots who do it. Patriots who have drawn the line short of their neighbor. When it happens, patriots among those attacked defend their country. As they are doing in Iraq right now.

 

[Octavian]

We can’t choose our country, any more than we can choose our parents. We love our parents and I suspect the majority of us love our land of birth. It is an emotional bond that can seem to defy logic. Loving one’s country does not mean that one is blind to its failings, as was once famously espoused, ‘My country right or wrong.’ But neither can patriotism be switched on and off according to whether or not you agree with the government of the day.

That is the price we pay for living in a democracy. We have to be prepared to accept the view of a majority, even if such views are an anathema to us; we have to tolerate a government even if we do not support its actions.

But a country is not just the product of its government. It is also a product of its heritage, its core values, and its people.

I know there are a number of things wrong in my country. Yet I remain proud to be British. Does that make me a patriot? I hope so.

Octavian

My Stories

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I think a patriot is someone who is willing to, under necessary circumstance, sacrifice for the protection, welfare, and happiness of their country.

But what does that mean? Your country's ideals? Its political agenda? Its culture? The people who live there?

I mean, we bandy the word patriotism around all the time, and I'm beginning to think that it's actually meaningless. A patriot is someone who shares your values and outlook. The other people are unpatriotic.

---dr.M.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by dr_mabeuse
But what does that mean? Your country's ideals? Its political agenda? Its culture? The people who live there?

I would think "it's authority" would be primary.

I mean, we bandy the word patriotism around all the time, and I'm beginning to think that it's actually meaningless. A patriot is someone who shares your values and outlook. The other people are unpatriotic.

---dr.M.

I don't think that's very close to the definition of the word, unless we're expanding it independantly of that to such a level that it becomes meaningless. Patriot /has/ meaning.

 

[cantdog]

So that meaning would be

I think a patriot is someone who is willing to, under necessary circumstance, sacrifice for the protection, welfare, and happiness of their country.

I would think "it's authority" would be primary.

The protection and welfare of its authority, primarily.

You mean its ability to command (something )? As in, its authority to regulate the Panama Canal, or its authority to reject a government in Nicaragua? Or its "authorities," meaning its legitimate leadership?

cantdog

 

[cantdog]

Or just ignore the question; that's okay, too.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by cantdog
Or just ignore the question; that's okay, too.

I was out for the evening, but hey... feel free to be a dick.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by cantdog
So that meaning would be
The protection and welfare of its authority, primarily.

You mean its ability to command (something )? As in, its authority to regulate the Panama Canal, or its authority to reject a government in Nicaragua? Or its "authorities," meaning its legitimate leadership?

cantdog

What I mean is only part of it. Strictly speaking, the word "patriot" has a definition--the word does not lack meaning. It would only lack meaning if we choose to put it in a smaller box of reference like "us versus them". Which I don't agree is a good or necessary idea.

However, past all of that... I should think it would be the protection, welfare, and happiness of the country and the promotion of the authority and sovereignty of the state.

 

[cantdog]

No, I just lost interest. How was your evening? I had a rewarding one because I was able to be of use to my daughter in a small way.

cantdog

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

I haven’t a clue what Patriotism is, but I know what I reject.

We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence. Yet we go into spasms of joy over the possibility of projecting dynamite bombs from flying machines upon helpless citizens. We are ready to hang, electrocute, or lynch anyone, who, from economic necessity, will risk his own life in the attempt upon that of some industrial magnate. Yet our hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that it will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations.

Such is the logic of patriotism.

It is no doubt slightly antiquated, as to style, and terminology.

Presently, for me, the most arresting part about that quote, is from when it comes:

Emma Goldman's “Patriotism: A Menace to Liberty” from Anarchism and Other Essays, published in 1911.