Paganism

[Amy Sweet]

I'm not criticizing either of you, it's just that the mix of logical conviction and passionate conviction--the different ways you see the world-- is kind of entertaining to watch. Is it wrong to say that? You two have kind of a Captain Kirk/Mr. Spock thing going on.

Please don't hurt me.

Luck,

Yui

I really am laughing and it really is out loud

I nearly always feel like I'm Kirt talking to spock when I get into a discussion (or whatever it turns out to be) with Joe. I've even told him so.

For myself, I'm not offended. I'm amused. (but not in a cool and logical fashion, more like in a silly seripidity what a coincidence irrational unlogical lonlinier way.)

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I think it has something to do with the Hellenic Calender, maybe? Maimakterion is November-December, I think, but no clue what Triakas is.

In an extreme nutshell, a marking of the end of the month. Since it occurs on a new moon (at least in this month) it also coincides with the rituals for Hecate (who has been the most used goddess of the Pagan religions). Sorry I went over everybody's head.

 

[yui]

Sorry I went over everybody's head.

Well, I am sort of short by US standards... so you are forgiven.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Well, I am sort of short by US standards... so you are forgiven.

Me too! (Under 5 ft.)

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I have to agree on delusional lol

Amy, I think I love you.

--------

Ahh, how Sweet.

 

[Kassiana]

::Rises from her table at the back of the room, grabs her coat and hat, whispers to TheEarl, "Hey, if you want to talk some more, let's do it in private or in another room," and leaves the thread before it explodes all over her things::

 

[woodnymph_O]

ok new subject

to amy and all the rest
what kind of plans do you guys have for the holiday season? Are you celebrating solstace, yule, or something else. I'm looking forward to a bit of snow and some time in the outdoors. My family has a special Yule night celebration comming up, and I'm looking for a few fun recipies if anyone has any ideas (hot drinks, sweets, etc.) We do not eat meat on this night, in order to celebrate life. I'm sure their are some who are vegetarian all year- round , but i find it to be a major control issue with me. I think being raised in the south im waiting for some sort of "stop meat eating patch "to help. I have went a bit more to the organics and such. Anyway I have to agree with sweets earlier point. The point of her thread was sharing, not debating, so I'll respect that, As I'm sure most of the rest will.
Blessings to all
nymph

 

[Amy Sweet]

::Rises from her table at the back of the room, grabs her coat and hat, whispers to TheEarl, "Hey, if you want to talk some more, let's do it in private or in another room," and leaves the thread before it explodes all over her things::

like this:

door

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: ok new subject

to amy and all the rest
what kind of plans do you guys have for the holiday season? Are you celebrating solstace, yule, or something else. I'm looking forward to a bit of snow and some time in the outdoors. My family has a special Yule night celebration comming up, and I'm looking for a few fun recipies if anyone has any ideas (hot drinks, sweets, etc.) We do not eat meat on this night, in order to celebrate life. I'm sure their are some who are vegetarian all year- round , but i find it to be a major control issue with me. I think being raised in the south im waiting for some sort of "stop meat eating patch "to help. I have went a bit more to the organics and such. Anyway I have to agree with sweets earlier point. The point of her thread was sharing, not debating, so I'll respect that, As I'm sure most of the rest will.
Blessings to all
nymph

I love christmas- so i just do Chrismas.

But I sneak little things in without really drawing atttention. Choose christmas cards w/ a stag on them for example. Hang misltletoe. Oh not much difference! Debate how believing in Santa is any different than believing in God.devil:

Plus, I believe in saying merry christmas to everyone! Christmas is a wonderful holliday that's Celebrated all over the world. I think it untites us over time and space. It's a christian holliday, a pagan holiday and secular holiday.

I just pick and chose the symbols of the season I like the best. (and I love nativity scenes by the way)

 

[Sunnie]

Again... it is apparent that its easier to diss than actually deal with the points.

That's the thing, there ARE no points. Just you rambling about what's subjective and what isn't. That's not a point, and you haven't made one. If you'd LIKE to make one, please feel free.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Hi everybody!!! Hows it goin? My dog is fine thank you. I am fine also thank you. See ya!!!!!

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Re: ok new subject

to amy and all the rest
what kind of plans do you guys have for the holiday season? Are you celebrating solstace, yule, or something else. I'm looking forward to a bit of snow and some time in the outdoors. My family has a special Yule night celebration comming up, and I'm looking for a few fun recipies if anyone has any ideas (hot drinks, sweets, etc.) We do not eat meat on this night, in order to celebrate life. I'm sure their are some who are vegetarian all year- round , but i find it to be a major control issue with me. I think being raised in the south im waiting for some sort of "stop meat eating patch "to help. I have went a bit more to the organics and such. Anyway I have to agree with sweets earlier point. The point of her thread was sharing, not debating, so I'll respect that, As I'm sure most of the rest will.
Blessings to all
nymph

Sounds like an excellent Christmas. I'm working that day unfortunately. As a nurse you don't get your choice of days off. It's how the schedule falls.
But the decorations are up. Lights, yule log, holly and garland. It's great getting home at night and turning all the festive lights on.
This week is time to fight the crowds and go shopping. I always wait till later to shop because everyone rushing , wrapping gifts, kids talking to santa at the last minute and everyone mainly being polite always gets me in the spirit.
There was a thread on here about cookie recipes that has some great recipes for anyone interested. Otherwise, let me know. I've got three folders full of various recipes. lol
Merry Christmas and Happy Hannukah and Kwanza to all.

Blessed be

 

[Sunnie]

Re: Re: ok new subject

Sounds like an excellent Christmas. I'm working that day unfortunately. As a nurse you don't get your choice of days off. It's how the schedule falls.
But the decorations are up. Lights, yule log, holly and garland. It's great getting home at night and turning all the festive lights on.
This week is time to fight the crowds and go shopping. I always wait till later to shop because everyone rushing , wrapping gifts, kids talking to santa at the last minute and everyone mainly being polite always gets me in the spirit.
There was a thread on here about cookie recipes that has some great recipes for anyone interested. Otherwise, let me know. I've got three folders full of various recipes. lol
Merry Christmas and Happy Hannukah and Kwanza to all.

Blessed be

The Xmas season is always a great mishmash of tradition in our family. My dad, stepmom, and sister are all Messianic Jews, so they do the Hanukkah thing. My stepkids (who live with their mom) are being raised Jewish also, so they do the Hanukkah thing as well, but we also celebrate Xmas with them while they're here (trying to explain Yule to them at this age would be too many religions in one small head, methinks). My mom and mother-in-law are sort of nonreligious, so they do Xmas by default. I am Pagan as well as most of my friends, so we have a gathering on the Solstice also. All in all it's a pretty busy season. And since my husband has repaired his relationship with his father, we get to go there for Xmas too.

A total of three children, four sets of parents, three living grandparents, and eight close friends make for a busy busy season. hehe.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Sunnie
That's the thing, there ARE no points. Just you rambling about what's subjective and what isn't. That's not a point, and you haven't made one. If you'd LIKE to make one, please feel free.

Hold on...

...you, really and truly, don't see the points I've made?

Like, honestly don't see where I've made even one?

 

[Sunnie]

Hold on...

...you, really and truly, don't see the points I've made?

Like, honestly don't see where I've made even one?

As much as I would LOVE to be finished with this discussion, I will say that your passionate dissection of a mere 3 words has overridden any point you were trying to make. You picked 3 words and rambled on for 3 pages about how they were wrong. Thanks, but that doesn't really make a point about anything.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Sunnie
As much as I would LOVE to be finished with this discussion, I will say that your passionate dissection of a mere 3 words has overridden any point you were trying to make. You picked 3 words and rambled on for 3 pages about how they were wrong. Thanks, but that doesn't really make a point about anything.

How does that not make a point? Or, I guess to make this simpler, what constitutes a point to you?

If a point is a reasoned proposition (which is how I think most people would define it), then I've made a great many points--that they were on very specific things, even the nature of three words, doesn't make them--magically--"not points".

Additionally, that wood make a point about how everything was [one of those words], I don't see how a reasoned argument explaining how that might not be the case is also--magiclaly--"not a point".

What are your standards for "a point"? And, do you think wood or anyone else here have had any "points", either?

 

[Lisa Denton]

Re: Re: I have to agree on delusional lol

You are a moron.

Gosh Joe, I have looked at some of the stuff here and its all confusing to me, and peoples got upset and all. You and I usually argue lightheartedly with a few puns thrown in.

The above quote is, of course, taken out of context by itself. It isn't a point you were trying to make, and I actually was disappointed to see that you had said it, but I'm afraid that is where you lost all points.

Maybe you should just let this one slide and start another thread that is similar and kinda start over.



P.S. Congrats on that new thingie you got, see ya.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Re: I have to agree on delusional lol

Originally posted by Lisa Denton
Maybe you should just let this one slide and start another thread that is similar and kinda start over.



P.S. Congrats on that new thingie you got, see ya.

Yeah, its where I lost all patience, admittedly.

I would start another thread or something, but I don't think it'll do much good.

 

[Sunnie]

How does that not make a point? Or, I guess to make this simpler, what constitutes a point to you?

If a point is a reasoned proposition (which is how I think most people would define it), then I've made a great many points--that they were on very specific things, even the nature of three words, doesn't make them--magically--"not points".

You are just so stuck on being right. But that was your problem -- you got TOO specific, and thus lost all trace of the original argument (the nature of which I can't even recall). What was a calm debate, or gamut of definitions or theories, I suppose, became a heated argument losing all momentum TOWARDS reason once you began dissecting THREE BLOODY WORDS. Get over yourself, PLEASE.

Additionally, that wood make a point about how everything was [one of those words], I don't see how a reasoned argument explaining how that might not be the case is also--magiclaly--"not a point".

That you dragged out the argument for -- what, three days now? -- has killed any point you were trying to make. At this point people are just tired of your rambling and your self-righteous pomposity. So much so that any benefit this thread may have had toward education on Paganism in general, is completely negated -- eclipsed by you and whether or not Paganism is subjective.

Here's a news flash. Most Pagans aren't concerned with the subjectivity or objectivity of Paganism, whether it is a religion, a spiritual path, a philosophy, or any of that bullshit. What we are concerned with is a matter of personal preference, whether it be a connection to Nature, a relationship with God/dess, or simply improving one's skill at Magick -- it is all Individual. Pulling a half-assed attempt at explaining Paganism in WORDS, is to cheapen the Path itself.

What are your standards for "a point"? And, do you think wood or anyone else here have had any "points", either?

No.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Sunnie
You are just so stuck on being right. But that was your problem -- you got TOO specific, and thus lost all trace of the original argument (the nature of which I can't even recall). What was a calm debate, or gamut of definitions or theories, I suppose, became a heated argument losing all momentum TOWARDS reason once you began dissecting THREE BLOODY WORDS. Get over yourself, PLEASE.

I'm stuck on identifying what is and isn't right, that would be a more accurate way to put it. Someone made an erroneous statement about something, I offered a reasoned correction. They denied the reasoned correction, I further explained the reasoned correction. I don't recall you being a part of that argument, so your insistance that its a waste of time or effort or whatnot sort of confuses me.

Why are you taking so personally an argument about the nature of things when you choose to not even involve yourself in the substance of it? That's sort of like complaining about how people are playing basketball, but not offering up anything more substantial than "Its a waste and terrible"--you no likey, you no have to watchy.

That you dragged out the argument for -- what, three days now? -- has killed any point you were trying to make. At this point people are just tired of your rambling and your self-righteous pomposity. So much so that any benefit this thread may have had toward education on Paganism in general, is completely negated -- eclipsed by you and whether or not Paganism is subjective.

Its takes more than one person to have an argument... so before you make the point "You dragged out the argument", its best understood that more than just one person was necessary to do so. I entirely admit that this thread got away from "education on Paganism", but it started with "everything is subjective" (we'll note that wasn't my quote).

A good healthy chunk of the argument had nothing to do with whether Paganism was subjective. I recommend you look back and read a little. It had to do with one person stating something ("everything is subjective"), a disagreeing position ("I don't think that's the case"), the onset of a barely related subject to back the point ("Christianity is subjective, look at Abraham"), and a counter of reasoned explanation why that isn't true.

Then again, I've already explained this twice.

Here's a news flash. Most Pagans aren't concerned with the subjectivity or objectivity of Paganism, whether it is a religion, a spiritual path, a philosophy, or any of that bullshit. What we are concerned with is a matter of personal preference, whether it be a connection to Nature, a relationship with God/dess, or simply improving one's skill at Magick -- it is all Individual. Pulling a half-assed attempt at explaining Paganism in WORDS, is to cheapen the Path itself.

That's not a news flash and, remarkably, had nothing to do with the previous argument. IF you want to start a new discussion on what "most" pagans are and aren't concerned with (because you have some direct cognition of what most Pagans, on the face of the earth, think), I suppose we can do that. If you really want to.

On your point, however, if Paganism is entirely a matter of personal preference of belief, then it raises a lot of complicated and not easily answered questions about how it deserves any more respect than certain other strictly personally preferred beliefs. That's a complex discussion, though, and in order to have it intelligently you'd have to open yourself to the possibility that logic and reason will be necessary to moderate the disagreements that may arise.

Beyond that, you say "half-assed" attempts cheapen it. What constitutes a not-half-assed attempt? And has anyone provided one yet? And if not, can you?

 

[TheEarl]

On your point, however, if Paganism is entirely a matter of personal preference of belief, then it raises a lot of complicated and not easily answered questions about how it deserves any more respect than certain other strictly personally preferred beliefs. That's a complex discussion, though, and in order to have it intelligently you'd have to open yourself to the possibility that logic and reason will be necessary to moderate the disagreements that may arise.

Joe, just to say: we've covered this. Paganism is not entirely a matter of personal preference of belief. It is a diverse collection of religions, from Wicca to Druidism. Although they're mostly flexible, they're not 'do whatever you want.' There are the basic tenets to keep to and a lot of loosely applied guidelines.

But, as I've said, we've covered this beforehand and you admitted I had a point. Sunnie's point about 'personal preference' was talking about what faith you preferred to follow within the gamut of faiths that make up Paganism. You're taking it the wrong way in order to try and argue a point which you've already conceded.

The Earl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by TheEarl
Joe, just to say: we've covered this.

True.

 

[Sunnie]

Sunnie's point about 'personal preference' was talking about what faith you preferred to follow within the gamut of faiths that make up Paganism.

Thank you, that was a better way to say it.

 

[Sunnie]

I'm stuck on identifying what is and isn't right, that would be a more accurate way to put it.

Who are you to decide what is and is not right? One person may view things one way, another person another way. Doesn't make it "right" or "wrong" either way.

Why are you taking so personally an argument about the nature of things when you choose to not even involve yourself in the substance of it?

You are reading entirely too much into my interest in the discussion -- which, incidentally, is purely out of boredom.

Tat and your apparant inference that it was "ok to kill your kids" in Paganism. That ain't funny -- and also, if you'd been paying attention as well, doesn't mesh with the "harm none" clause.

Its takes more than one person to have an argument... so before you make the point "You dragged out the argument", its best understood that more than just one person was necessary to do so. I entirely admit that this thread got away from "education on Paganism", but it started with "everything is subjective" (we'll note that wasn't my quote).

No, but it was a quote you could have ignored and passed off privately as "erroneous" rather than jumping in feet first weilding PhD's. So again, I point out, You are focused entirely on Being Right. You're keeping up this argument in hopes that someone will eventually go, "Yes, Joe, you are right, you know more than I do." Sorry about your luck -- it ain't happenin'.

Then again, I've already explained this twice.

Feel free to stop.

Beyond that, you say "half-assed" attempts cheapen it. What constitutes a not-half-assed attempt? And has anyone provided one yet? And if not, can you?

No, no one can. A not-half-assed attempt would be to keep silent (the "Four Laws", anyone?). Why try to explain the inexplicable?

*shrug*

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Sunnie
Who are you to decide what is and is not right? One person may view things one way, another person another way. Doesn't make it "right" or "wrong" either way.

I should think its everyone's job to take seriously the pursuit of knowing what is right and what is not right (even as a matter of simple correctness). One person may see things one way, and another person may see things another way, but to say "well, you can't say whether anyone is more right than anyone else" is to abandon an appreciate for science, Law, philosophy, humanitarian efforts, pacifism, political accountability, simple education, etc.

No, I think when you find something that's right... you should do what you can to let others know. Especially in light of the possibility that others will take "what's wrong" and believe it otherwise, beginning a chain of poor reasoning and potentially harmful beliefs.

You are reading entirely too much into my interest in the discussion -- which, incidentally, is purely out of boredom.

Tat and your apparant inference that it was "ok to kill your kids" in Paganism. That ain't funny -- and also, if you'd been paying attention as well, doesn't mesh with the "harm none" clause.

So, you complain about other peoples' arguments when you're bored?

My point had no inference. It was as literal as I could make it, because of people like you. IF there is a subjectivity of value ("harm" having a value, but that value determined individually with no referrent to an objective norm), then killing children could be perfectly ethically suitable. That's true by simple logic. As such, I didn't think it advantagious or "good" that Paganism be "subjective". Earl did a good job of explaining how it isn't subjective, in his own way (though I have a ton more questions).

Subjectivity leads to the possibility of killing children being ethical. Its one of subjectivity's greater failings--an inability to hold a standard, objectively, because it can't by definition.

No, but it was a quote you could have ignored and passed off privately as "erroneous" rather than jumping in feet first weilding PhD's. So again, I point out, You are focused entirely on Being Right. You're keeping up this argument in hopes that someone will eventually go, "Yes, Joe, you are right, you know more than I do." Sorry about your luck -- it ain't happenin'.

If I'd have ignored it, someone could have read it and thought "Oh, well that's true". Can't have that. At the very least a democratic response to a questionable point is a good thing, for everyone's benefit. For those disinclined to even consider a dissenting view, they won't much care. For those who go "ah, so that's not necessarily true", it was a good thing to have provided them.

You still seem hung up on PhD stuff. I don't have one, by the way. Get over it.

I'm focused on finding what is right, "being right" doesn't really interest me in a relavent fashion to this discussion. I'm keeping up this argument because there are parts you seem to still either (1) not understand or (2) choose to ignore so you don't have to confront the possibility of being wrong. As such, I have faith that it isn't willing ignorance (the latter), but a lack of my ability to clearly state my point (the former).

I've already been told I'm right. But, like I've said, "being right" doesn't really interest me in this discussion in any relavent fashion.

Feel free to stop.

I'm not the one who considers this a waste of time or pointless. I have no reason to stop.

No, no one can. A not-half-assed attempt would be to keep silent (the "Four Laws", anyone?). Why try to explain the inexplicable?

*shrug*

If Paganism is inexplicable, then why should anyone take it even reasonably seriously? Why should it have status, socially, as a viable and perfectly acceptable form of religious observance if nobody can explain it reasonably well? How is it, in such a case, any different than a psychosis--in that the mechanics are inexplicable, but its surely a belief structure of some kind?

I think if nobody can explain Paganism without doing it half-assed (a necessary condition to someone doing so to begin with), then Earl may well be wrong... his explanation being a half-assed one. If his attempt to explain the inexplicable was half-assed, am I to still take it seriously (I did, but that was before I learned that in his doing so if was a half-assed thing, warranting very little credit, by nature).