Paganism

[woodnymph_O]

since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

101 Clear Contradictions In The Bible



1.Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

(a) God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)

(b) Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)





2.In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

(b) One million, one hundred thousand (IChronicles 21:5)




3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

(a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

(b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)




4.God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

(a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)

(b) Three (I Chronicles 21:12)




5.How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)

(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)




6.How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?

(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)

(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)




7.How long did he rule over Jerusalem?

(a) Three months (2 Kings 24:8)

(b) Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)




8.The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?

(a) Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)

(b) Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)




9.When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?

(a) After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)

(b) Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)




10.How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?

(a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)

(b) Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)




11.When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?

(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4)

(b) Seven thousand (I Chronicles 18:4)




12.How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?

(a) Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)

(b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)




13.In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?

(a) Twenty-sixth year (I Kings 15:33 - 16:8)

(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1)




14.How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple?

(a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2)

(b) Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)




15.Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?

(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26)

(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5)




16.Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab?

(a) Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6)

(b) Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11)




17.How many were the children of Zattu?

(a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8)

(b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)




18.How many were the children of Azgad?

(a) One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12)

(b) Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17)




19.How many were the children of Adin?

(a) Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15)

(b) Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20)




20.How many were the children of Hashum?

(a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19)

(b) Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22)




21.How many were the children of Bethel and Ai?

(a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28)

(b) One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32)




22.Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:

(a) 29,818 (Ezra)

(b) 31,089 (Nehemiah)




23.How many singers accompanied the assembly?

(a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65)

(b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67)




24.What was the name of King Abijah’s mother?

(a) Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2)

(b) Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20) But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27)




25.Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem?

(a) Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40)

(b) No (Joshua 15:63)




26.Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary?

(a) Jacob (Matthew 1:16)

(b) Hell (Luke 3:23)




27.Jesus descended from which son of David?

(a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6)

(b) Nathan (Luke3: 31)




28.Who was the father of Shealtiel?

(a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12)

(b) Neri’ (Luke 3:27)




29.Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ?

(a) Abiud (Matthew 1: 13)

(b) Rhesa (Luke 3:27) but the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: i. Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v. Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (I Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anyway.




30.Who was the father of Uzziah?

(a) Joram (Matthew 1:8)

(b) Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1)




31.Who as the father of Jechoniah?

(a) Josiah (Matthew 1:11)

(b) Jeholakim (I Chronicles 3:16)




32.How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ?

(a) Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17)

(b) But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1: 12-16)




33.Who was the father of Shelah?

(a) Cainan (Luke 3:35-36)

(b) Arphaxad (Genesis II: 12)




34.Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come?

(a) Yes (Matthew II: 14, 17:10-13)

(b) No (John 1:19-21)




35.Would Jesus inherit David’s throne?

(a) Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32)

(b) No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1: I 1, I Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David’s throne (Jeremiah 36:30)




36.Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals?

(a) One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf Luke 19:3 5). “And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it.”

(b) Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). “They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon.”




37.How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?

(a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)

(b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)




38.Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew?

(a) By the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22)

(b) On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43)




39.When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus’ daughter already dead?

(a) Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, “My daughter has just died.”

(b) No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, “My little daughter is at the point of death.”




40.Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey?

(a) Yes (Mark6: 8)

(b) No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3)




41.Did Herod think that Jesus was John the Baptist?

(a) Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16)

(b) No (Luke 9:9)




42.Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?

(a) Yes (Matthew 3:13-14)

(b) No (John 1:32,33)




43.Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism?

(a) Yes (John 1:32, 33)

(b) No (Matthew 11:2)




44.According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?

(a) “If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true” (John 5:3 1)

(b) “Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true” (John 8:14)




45.When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day?

(a) Yes (Matthew 21:12)

(b) No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark I 1:1- 17).




46.The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once?

(a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19)

(b) No. It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)




47.Did Judas kiss Jesus?

(a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)

(b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)




48.What did Jesus say about Peter’s denial?

(a) “The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times” (John 13:38).

(b) “Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times” (Mark 14:30). When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.




49.Did Jesus bear his own cross?

(a) Yes (John 19:17)

(b) No (Matthew 27:31-32)




50.Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn?

(a) Yes (Matthew27: 50-5 1;MarklS: 37-38)

(b) No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46)




51.Did Jesus say anything secretly?

(a) No. “I have said nothing secretly” (John 18:20)

(b) Yes. “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything” (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matthew 13: 1 0-11)




52.Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?

(a) On the cross (Mark 15:23)

(b) In Pilate’s court (John 19:14)




53.The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus?

(a) Yes (Mark 15:32)

(b) No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43)




54.Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion?

(a) Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43)

(b) No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, “I have not yet ascended to the Father” (John 20:17)




55.When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice?

(a) Yes (Acts9: 7)

(b) No (Acts22: 9)





56.When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground?

(a) Yes (Acts 26:14)

(b) No (Acts 9:7)





57.Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul’s duties were to be?

(a) Yes (Acts 26:16-18)

(b) No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts9: 7; 22: 10)





58.When the Israelites dwelt in Shittin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague. How many people died in that plague?

(a) Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9)

(b) Twenty-three thousand (I Corinthians 10:8)





59.How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt?

(a) Seventy souls (Genesis 4&27)

(b) Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14)





60.What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus?

(a) He bought a field (Acts 1: 18)

(b) He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5)





61.How did Judas die?

(a) After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5)

(b) After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18)





62.Why is the field called “Field of Blood”?

(a) Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8)

(b) Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19)





63.Who is a ransom for whom?

(a) “The Son of Man came...to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45). “Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all... “(I Timothy 2:5-6)

(b) “The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright” (Proverbs 21:18)





64.Is the Law of Moses useful?

(a) Yes. “All scripture is... profitable...” (2 Timothy 3:16)

(b) No. “ . . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness... “(Hebrews 7:18)





65.What was the exact wording on the cross?

(a) “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (Matthew 27:37)

(b) “The King of the Jews” (Mark 15:26)

(c) “This is the King of the Jews” (Luke 23:38)

(d) “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews” (John 19:19)





66.Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist?

(a) Yes (Matthew 14:5)

(b) No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20)





67.Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve?

(a) Thaddaeus (Matthew 10: 1-4; Mark 3:13 -19)

(b) Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke’s gospel (Luke 6:12-16)





68.Jesus saw a man sit at the tax collector’s office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name?

(a) Matthew (Matthew 9:9)

(b) Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27)





69.Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after?

(a) After (Mark 14:12-17)

(b) Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate’s judgment hail because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgment was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14)





70.Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?

(a) Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42)

(b) No. (John 12:27)





71.In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did ‘he move away from his disciples to pray?

(a) Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42)

(b) One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46)





72.Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer?

(a) Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:3 9)

(b) Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42)





73.What did the centurion say when Jesus dies?

(a) “Certainly this man was innocent” (Luke 23:47)

(b) “Truly this man was the Son of God” (Mark 15:39)





74.When Jesus said “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me? ” in what language did he speak?

(a) Hebrew: the words are “Eloi, Eloi…“(Matthew 27:46)

(b) Aramaic: the words are “Eloi, Eloi... “(Mark 15:34)





75.According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died?

(a) “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” (Luke 23:46)

(b) "It is finished" (John 19:30).





76.When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this?

(a) Yes (Matthew 8:5)

(b) No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3,6)





77. (a) Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17)

(b) Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5)







78. (a) God decided that the life span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3)

(b) Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16)





79.Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?

(a) No (John 3:13)

(b) Yes. “And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11)





80.Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread?

(a) Abiathar (Mark 2:26)

(b) Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (I Samuel 1:1; 22:20)





81.Was Jesus’ body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs?

(a) Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40)

(b) No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud. Then the women bought and prepared spices “so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus)” (Mark 16: 1)





82.When did the women buy the spices?

(a) After “the Sabbath was past” (Mark 16:1)

(b) Before the Sabbath. The women “prepared spices and ointments.” Then, “on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment” (Luke 23:55 to 24:1)





83.At what time of day did the women visit the tomb?

(a) “Toward the dawn” (Matthew 28: 1)

(b) “When the sun had risen” (Mark 16:2)





84.What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb?

(a) To anoint Jesus’ body with spices (Mark 16: 1; Luke 23:55 to 24: 1)

(b) To see the tomb. Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28: 1)

(c) For no specified reason. In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the Sabbath (John 20: 1)





85.A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived?

(a) They saw that the stone was “Rolled back” (Mark 16:4) They found the stone “rolled away from the tomb” (Luke 24:2) They saw that “the stone had been taken away from the tomb” (John 20:1)

(b) As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6)





86.Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus’ body?

(a) Yes. “A young man in a white robe” (Mark 16:5). “Two men ... in dazzling apparel” later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote)

(b) No. Mary met no one and returned saying, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him” (John 20:2)





87.When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react?

(a) Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshipped him (Matthew 28:9)

(b) On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus’ body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him “Teacher.” Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me...” (John 20:11 to 17)





88.What was Jesus’ instruction for his disciples?

(a) “Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me” (Matthew 2 8: 10)

(b) “Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God” (John 20:17)





89.When did the disciples return to Galilee?

(a) Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee “some doubted” (Matthew 28:17). This period of uncertainty should not persist

(b) After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:3 3). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high” (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them “during forty days” (Acts 1:3), and “charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise ... “(Acts 1:4)





90.To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph?

(a) “To the Ishmaelites” (Genesis 37:28)

(b) “To Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh” (Genesis 37:36)





91.Who brought Joseph to Egypt?

(a) The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then “took Joseph to Egypt” (Genesis 37:28)

(b) “The Midianites had sold him in Egypt” (Genesis 37:36)

(c) Joseph said to his brothers “I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt” (Genesis 45:4)





92.Does God change his mind?

(a) Yes. “The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I repent that I have made Saul King...” (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)

(b) No. God “will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent” (I Samuel 15:29)

(c) Yes. “And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel” (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:

i. “The Lord was sorry that he made man” (Genesis 6:6)

“I am sorry that I have made them” (Genesis 6:7)

ii. “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people” (Exodus 32:14).

iii. (Lots of other such references).





93.The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the magicians did the same by their secret arts. Then comes the following feat:

(a) Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21)

(b) The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.





94.Who killed Goliath?

(a) David (I Samuel 17:23, 50)

(b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19)





95.Who killed Saul?

(a) “Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.... Thus Saul died... (I Samuel 31:4-6)

(b) An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1- 16)





96.Does every man sin?

(a) Yes. “There is no man who does not sin” (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)

(b) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. “Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God. (I John 5:1). “We should be called children of God; and so we are” (I John 3: 1). “He who loves is born of God” (I John 4:7). “No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God” (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (I John 1:8)





97.Who will bear whose burden?

(a) “Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2)

(b) “Each man will have to bear his own load” (Galatians 6:5)





98.How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection?

(a) Twelve (I Corinthians 15:5)

(b) Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:3 3)





99.Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?

(a) After his baptism, “the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13)

(b) Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)





100.Was baby Jesus’ life threatened in Jerusalem?

(a) Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)

(b) No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)





101.When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?

(a) They worshipped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God” (Matthew 14:33)

(b) “They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened” (Mark 6:51-52)

 

[Sunnie]

Re: Re: the subjectiveness lies here

The story of Abraham is an example of an objectivity of morality residing on the Issuance of Deed from God.

And it's entirely impossible that Abraham was a bit old and delusional?

However, none of this really relates to the original question:

Is, as an example, kidnapping, beating, killing, and then eating children alright to do, in Wicca, granting that "all things are subjective"?

Subjective or no, the Law is "An ye harm none, do what ye will" or some variation thereof... Ultimately as one's understanding of harm (because "harming none" includes oneself) grows, the actions one can take grow fewer and fewer, to quote from my favorite book series, "until at last he chooses nothing, but does only and wholly what he must do..."

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Ahh Joe

Originally posted by woodnymph_O
If such were true couldn't you just dispence of the ten commandments in favor of one?

As the Ten Commandments are intended to be the clarification of the Will of God... not necessarily. No moreso than "Do what I tell you" is lessened as a mandate by specifying "Here are some things I'm telling you to do".

Who does know what gods will is after all isn't that up to each man internally to question .

Going on your example of Abraham and Isaac, the Will of God was clearly put to him in no confusing or interpretive terms. Expanding that, much of the point of the Commandments were so that things like "Just don't hurt nobody" would be less interpretive.

Only the man who says god spoke to me ever heard it after all.
And only the pagan that says to themselves that is soo wrong to do at that moment felt it.

Huh?

Yet again , will of god, subjective, unless you're God , who else knows this will.

Going, again, on your example of Abraham.. there was no subjectivity--as you claimed--as the Will of God was spelled out for him by God. Expanding this outward, an appeal to objectivity does not constitute subjectivity. Even in the failure of the appeal to participate wholly in the objective, if its for reasons like "lack of information", then that doesn't meant that the whole world is subjective. That means that people are wrong. Big difference, there.

Many claim to, and yet they disagree with each other.

Which doesn't constitute "subjective", either. That people disagree on an issue (ranging from "How many wives did Arlin Topos have?" to "What is morally right?") does not make the issue "subjective" if there is an objective answer to the question. It means that one or more parties is simply wrong.

So yet again , it was not a sin to Abrahams beliefs was it, because he was following his belief in god's will. Not a churches will or a books will. SO he was not infact sinning because of his beliefs.. So odd and yet , so not.

He was not sinning because he was told clearly what to do by God. You can say "because of his beliefs", but that doesn't make it subjective either, as you're appealing to an objective referrant.

I love when we can argue the same point and stil disagree, just because pagans have to be wrong, in the minds of christians.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what your religion is, and if you think that then you're obfuscating the bare facts so you can assume this is an Ad Hominem argument against you. It isn't. Its not in the least bit fallacious.

This has everything to do with whether you have a sufficient grasp of basic Reason and Logic. I'm hoping you dig down and find that, because short of it... I don't see where your argument has any kinda premise whatsoever that rationally follows and is sound.

I'm sorry, Earl... I tried.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

Originally posted by woodnymph_O
101 Clear Contradictions In The Bible

The book is of two major sections, written considerable number of generations apart, by a dozen (or more) different writers, from various time periods. Of course there are textual contradictions.

What's your point?

 

[woodnymph_O]

I have to agree on delusional lol

funny to say it was the will of God when there was no one else to back up this will theory. If only Abraham heard it who's to say it ever happened. Thats like saying you will worship a black dog because the son of sam killer heard him. People with immagination could base whole religions around it. Sorry Joe still subjective when the is no witness to supposed will. Only abraham heard it , so yes it could have just been a delusional old man. I dont see it as some prime example of belief. Give me a walls of jerico story anyday. Public events do not rest on one interpertation , but many, but i guess even then it's still subjective all four gospels tell the life of jesus differently look at the contradictions in the bible piece. And yet they all believed that was the way it happened. Possible explanation had the same scenario happened now. I'd say most doctors would call abraham a paranoid scizofanic (sic) . Since it's bed time , i won't bother with the spell checks and such, just ask your self if a ragged old man came up to you today and said god told me to kill the hookers ,would you fall in line, or call the cops?

 

[Sunnie]

Re: Re: since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

The book is of two major sections, written considerable number of generations apart, by a dozen (or more) different writers, from various time periods. Of course there are textual contradictions.

What's your point?

I'm sorry but I have to agree here. I'm pagan and everything, but I read the contradictions and kind of went, "Ok, what does that have to do with anything here?"

Sorry

 

[TheEarl]

Re: Re: Re: since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

I'm sorry but I have to agree here. I'm pagan and everything, but I read the contradictions and kind of went, "Ok, what does that have to do with anything here?"

Sorry

Hey, religion doesn't mean that we take sides here. It's not the Catholic v (playground football term - means the Catholic versus everybody else). Just cause Joe's got a different religion doesn't mean you have to apologise for agreeing with him. You've agreed with me already and I'm not a pagan.

The Earl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: I have to agree on delusional lol

Originally posted by woodnymph_O
funny to say it was the will of God when there was no one else to back up this will theory. If only Abraham heard it who's to say it ever happened. Thats like saying you will worship a black dog because the son of sam killer heard him. People with immagination could base whole religions around it. Sorry Joe still subjective when the is no witness to supposed will. Only abraham heard it , so yes it could have just been a delusional old man.

Have you ever even taken a course in basic Logic?

Look, you said that the story of Abraham was prime example of subjectivity of morality. YOU said that. I showed that, no, working with story its an appeal to an objective "Will of God". You brought up the referrant, I showed how the referrent was not, in fact, a referrant of subjectivity.

It doesn't matter if it actually happened or not. You used a poor premise and now you don't even seem to acknoweldge what you previously said as a backer to your point. You're saying that because nobody could corroborate Abraham, then that... what? Makes it subjective now? Where are you getting your definitions from?

I dont see it as some prime example of belief. Give me a walls of jerico story anyday. Public events do not rest on one interpertation , but many, but i guess even then it's still subjective all four gospels tell the life of jesus differently look at the contradictions in the bible piece.

Contradictions of authors does not represent a subjectivity of knowledge. It represents an inaccuracy of recollection and transcription (at the least).

Even the story of the seven blind brothers... they all interpreted the elephant differently, but there was still an elephant--their lack of corroboration wasn't indicative of a subjective world, but an inaccuracy in their description.

You are a moron.

And yet they all believed that was the way it happened. Possible explanation had the same scenario happened now. I'd say most doctors would call abraham a paranoid scizofanic (sic) . Since it's bed time , i won't bother with the spell checks and such, just ask your self if a ragged old man came up to you today and said god told me to kill the hookers ,would you fall in line, or call the cops?

That has--and listen close--absoultely nothing to do with whether the world is or is not subjective by nature.

Are you the mark of the average Pagan? I really, really hope not.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Comments from an Old Wiccan

The Earl is right. As a wiccan who has been practicing for many years there should never be a us v them in our beliefs. Most wiccans don't care what someone believes as long as they believe in doing good and in a supreme being or beings. We do not believe in a Devil or Satan. Our Horned God became the christian devil to help conqueor the witches of old britain and spread the catholic church.
I've got alot of catholic and christian friends and many of them respect my beliefs and I theirs.
Wiccans do not go recruiting. We do answer questions if we're asked but we don't preach about our religion. Shows such as Charmed and The Craft lends us to ridicule and we fear for the fluff that will join our religion and the harm this can do us. I have taught many on the ways of wicca and watch them grow. Each remains a believer in wicca. But I didn't teach them because they just wanted to learn. They showed a genuine interest and a willingness to learn demonstrated by doing alot of research prior to talking with me.
Yes, we are very paranoid of admitting ot others that we're wiccans. A group of wiccan soldiers formed a circle in Iraq to pray and were stoned by the christian soldiers. A witch in Africa was stoned to death because a child died in their village and they blamed the pagan. An oak grove, which is sacred to wiccans, is to be destroyed in a city because it's called a gathering ground for witches. At my previous job when my co-workers found out I was a pagan a few of them held a prayer meeting to save me. The rest of time they wore crosses, not small ones, and held them whenever I was around. I was also told to stay away from the annual Christmas party that year.
There is structure within our religion as The Earl and Amy states. The Wiccan Rede is one. Not only does it tell us to harm no one, it also tells us how to form and undo a circle among other things. The magick is very structured. While we experiment with different herbs or spells to see what works best for us. The colors of candles are strict as is the use of crystals and stones.
Like christianity there are many branches of wicca. I am Celtic wicca, a friend of mine is gardnerian while another follows the egyptian path. I do not judge those who follow other paths or who are members of covens. I am a solitary practioner. Living in the bible belt south makes you practice secretly.
We are all the same. We enjoy learning from all religions, please accept us and learn from ours.

Blessed Be

LDW

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Re: since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

Originally posted by Sunnie
I'm sorry but I have to agree here. I'm pagan and everything, but I read the contradictions and kind of went, "Ok, what does that have to do with anything here?"

Sorry

I'm really very religiously tolerant. I'm not very rationality-tolerant.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I thought I had took care of the whole "Is Paganism a religion?" debate a long time ago. Ah well, but what stays spoken for long on the net.

Here's it again. Some of Wicca and Paganism is distinctly religious on all possible wavelengths of measuring it: Structured Beliefs, Distinct deities, Rituals performed for said deities, Beliefs in Afterworlds, Standardized Mythos, etc...

The problem of all discussions about Paganism and Wicca is that they are both extremely disparate groups as well as being only in some cases conjoined.

For instance, this is a form of Paganism: Hellenism. It is heavily structured, has a set and constant pantheon, its worshippers learn the original language and original prayers to use, and even follow the ancient calendar of sacrifices and festivals.

And so are most polytheistic religions whether they include Greek, Celtic, Norse, and Egyptian Gods and myths into a huge melting pot, or consist of two Gods or Goddesses taken from or melded from the other pantheons. While it is true the term orginated from Hellenic resistance groups to Constatine, the term does not bracket that sect alone. This is why saying that paganism isn't a real religion because of X druidic sect is like saying that Christianity isn't a religion because of X cult or Y radical sect (such as the Cainites).

Wicca, the practice of witchcraft can and has been tailored onto Pagan polytheistic religions, monotheistic Goddess religions, and druidic (the stereotyped Nature worshippers) religions. It also ranges from the ultra-mathematical and ritualistic Kabbala of Crowley to the Solitary and customizable books of Scott Cunningham: http://www.llewellyn.com/bookstore/author.php?id=38182. It also includes authors and groups that do the famed (and often infamed) covens usually adhering to the four-sided circle (but again, just as in any movement, different habits of adhering to the points and the conotations of those points are debated and changed from group to group).

Just as Christianity is fragmented into sects who see radically different ways of how one is supposed to worship, who they're supposed to worship (Is it just Christ, just God, the holy trinity, the holy mother, how many is one supposed to include, is it all taken for granted, etc), and how one is suppossed to live by the ideals, and which books of the bible are deserving of more emphasis, so is Paganism and Wicca fragmented. The fact that they are fragmented more by the simple length of poles between historically accurate worship and New Age, does not make it somehow less nor can it be counted against the groups themselves. Else we would be yelling at Baptists for what Mormons do, Unitarians for what Baptists do, Anglicans for what Catholics do, and everybody for what Jehovah's Witnesses do.

Are not all Wicca pagan? Yes. Are not all Pagans Wicca? Yes. These are hardly synonymous terms. Nor are they contradictory.

And its amazing what flavors these groups take. I know personally a strict Hellenic (linguist major, of course), a Wiccan Pagan (Celtic and Greek pantheon mix), a straight up Pagan who only dabbled in a little plant magic when she was younger (me mum), and in an odd move someone who is slowly developing into one of a very small number of Christian Wiccas (definitely one to shun the pagan aspects, Earth Goddess stuff, and so forth). I know you're very tired of hearing it by now, but it truly is a big group and understanding it can't be done like other religions by picking up a central guiding text and judging from that alone.

And it is most likely this flexibility which has enamored the individual in society, those who don't fit in. For many, it represents something that isn't forced onto them by a machinistic world, but that they can grow into and tailor into the things they already believe in by heart. At least that's been how I've noticed it. Again, like all theories on paganism and Wicca it does not begin or even presume to tell everyone's story.

 

[English Lady]

I don't really have much to add but hi thread i fascinating. You know I am learning mre and more about my own faith by reading through this and learning about other folks faith too.


Keep it up and I'll keep on reading Cheers!

 

[Kassiana]

Most Pagans in general that I know, including Wiccans, define the word “witch” as you do above, Dr. M. = someone who practices magic. “Witch” does not equal Wiccan, as there are Wiccans who do not practice magic.

Also, I find the “magick” word irritating and silly, like people who put unnecessary E’s on the ends of words (e.g. Ye Olde Magick Shoppe). Yes, there are Wiccans who use the term, but not all Pagans do.

is subjective faith even a religion?

--Sure. Buddhism is a faith based mainly on similar practices, just like most modern neo-Pagan religions. Orthopraxis can be just as binding on some religions as orthodoxy is for other religions.

 

[Kassiana]

I am a Pagan. I am NOT by any stretch of the imagination Wiccan. I use Wiccan ritual style, but that’s about it. I worship Egyptian Gods and use Discordia for some of my philosophy.

And BTW, I don’t get the Christianity bashing either. How does bashing Christianity prove that Wicca’s a real religion, again? Anyone? Bueller?

For goodness' sake, I'm no advocate for Christian belief, but ripping into it for no reason does neither you nor your position any good.

 

[Amy Sweet]

I think what we're saying here is that Wicca may be a religion or faith, but it's not an organized religion.



---Zoot

Actually, Wicca *is* an organized religion. just not everybody who calls themselves wiccan is part of the organization.

Some say, to be a real Wiccan, one must be initiated into a coven which can trace itself back to Gerald Gardner. This 'original' wicca was and is highly structured and organized and secretive.

Of course many reject the notion that one must be in a coven or be in a Ganderian coven, just as many reject the notion that one must go to church to be a christian.

Obviously, the non coven-initiateed wiccan's outnumber the coven initiated ones- just as christianity has many offshoots, sects and even what some would call 'dangerous cults.'

But the base of Wicca is actually very organized and formal. Extremely formal in fact, and many many many practicing wiccans reject this formality and the requirement of it.

some info:

http://www.witchvox.com/trads/trad_gardnerian.html

http://www.geraldgardner.com/index/main.shtml

http://www.geocities.com/deserthenge/gardnerian.html

Because of the persecution of the past, Gardnerians are often very secretive about their locations and event that this is their tradition. This secrecy is not snobbery, but a remnet of times when to reveal yourself meant death. Many in the tradition are now mixing with local pagan communities, and participating in local events.
For more information on Gardnerian Tradition or to contact a teacher, please e-mail me.
http://members.tripod.com/~Moonpfyr/gardnerian.html

http://www.cog.org/wicca/trads/gard.html

http://www.witchvox.com/trads/trad_gardnerian.html

As some Christians may be willing to admit that those of other sects or denominations are also 'true christains' (while others may not), some Wiccan's may feel the same about other wiccans. I myself would never call myself a wiccan unless I were at the very least in a wiccan coven- but I'm not going to argue with someone else who would.

I also personally use Wiccan for Gardnerian or Alexandrian Wicca and wiccan (lowercase for others)

Thanks doc, for joining the fray and also for giving me a good jumping off place to make a point that really hasn't been made yet. (I don't think)

btw, I really did like the second part of your post- and many wiccans do think of spirituality that way, but I cropped it because it didn't really pertain to the rest of what I had to say.

Hope you stick around. (ie, I hope I/we haven't scared you off)


Sweet.

 

[Sunnie]

Re: Re: Re: Re: since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

I'm really very religiously tolerant. I'm not very rationality-tolerant.

I can relate.

 

[Sunnie]

Re: Re: Re: Re: since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

Hey, religion doesn't mean that we take sides here. It's not the Catholic v (playground football term - means the Catholic versus everybody else). Just cause Joe's got a different religion doesn't mean you have to apologise for agreeing with him. You've agreed with me already and I'm not a pagan.

The Earl

You are right, good Sir.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: well since the term is harm none

that wouldn't work now would it joe. It reallty depends on your idea of harm though i guess. Go to your bible there. Pagans dont believe in harming another in the name of god, but abraham was all set to kill his own son, because God said. I dont think hearing voices tell you kill your own children is a good thing, but they teach the story with much love in a 5 year olds bible school class. Illustrated and all (HOW COOL) . Stoning women for pre-marital sex , etc ,etc. In the name of god it's all done there , right down to the crucifiction, but being quite subjective in Christianity as well, it was all cool there too wasn't it? What rules do you follow?
Do you pick and choose as most Christians while they read the book? Do you believe a divorced man or woman is and adulterer if they remarry as christ says ? Do you believe it is a mans responsibility to marry the widow of his brother. Most of all do you believe the angels stopped talking to people 2 thousand years ago? Why then? Was it the Babtists, methodists, lutherians, catholics, or mormons that pissed them off. If you cant say right now you believe all the terms and conditions , you haven't signed that ald christian contract have you, but amazingly enough I never met a CHRISTIAN that did.

Welcome woodnymph. I think I love you.

I also think you've got what it takes to last around here.





and of course:




Sweet.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: Re: the subjectiveness lies here

His belief in right and wrong weren't subjective--by definition they were objective, because they were based on the Will of the Lord (an objective component to the story). Had he disobeyed because he decided on a set of morals independant of God's, then he would have been entertaining subjective morality (related to the subject, in this case himself).

The story of Abraham is an example of an objectivity of morality residing on the Issuance of Deed from God.



As the Old Testament goes, there is no sin except deviation from the Will of God. Look at the plagues of Egypt or the covenants God enters into with the succession of Davidic Kings... it's all focused not on the morality of action, but the supremacy of God's Will--an objective thing, existing independant of the preference or mind of the subjects.



There is, essentially, no contradiction. The terms were "What God says... goes", the deeds were either in accordance with that or they weren't. That is the very essence of objectivity.

However, none of this really relates to the original question:

Is, as an example, kidnapping, beating, killing, and then eating children alright to do, in Wicca, granting that "all things are subjective"?

Only if our God tells us too.

 

[Sunnie]

Re: Re: Re: the subjectiveness lies here

Only if our God tells us too.

LOL!!

That was classic, I have to say.

 

[Amy Sweet]

However, none of this really relates to the original question:

Is, as an example, kidnapping, beating, killing, and then eating children alright to do, in Wicca, granting that "all things are subjective"?

Only if, like Joe you can argue the definition of 'harm' even against what even the dictionary says it means.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: Re: Ahh Joe

Which doesn't constitute "subjective", either. That people disagree on an issue (ranging from "How many wives did Arlin Topos have?" to "What is morally right?") does not make the issue "subjective" if there is an objective answer to the question. It means that one or more parties is simply wrong.

[/COLOR]

Hmm, so if we disagree, therefor only one of us can be right.


I choose me.









Sweet.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: Re: since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

The book is of two major sections, written considerable number of generations apart, by a dozen (or more) different writers, from various time periods. Of course there are textual contradictions.

What's your point?

This is even more off topic than the rest of the thread.

Woodnymph, I'm begging you- don't go there. He'll have you arguing about this for 10 pages and even if you win (you won't) it won't get you one step closer to the point you were trying to make about paganism.

 

[Amy Sweet]

Re: Re: I have to agree on delusional lol

Not trying any more are ya?

That's ok, neither am I.

You are an educated moron. YOu can't see the forest for the trees- or the intent of someones message for there imperfect word choice or use of Logic.

All hail the god of PHfuckingD's in Logic.

She(?) never even said the world was subjective. She is trying to say that *YOUR* religion is just as if not more subjective as hers.

Because you were being a moron and an ass by insisting that 'harm none' is so subjective it could include killing your children.

Apparently Christianity isn't subjective, it's just contradictory. Well whop-de-fucking-do is that supposed to be a point for it? She's trying to compare *christian morality* with *pagan morality* on the terms that you named. CAN YOU AS A GOOD CHRISTIAN/PAGAN WHATEVER, FOLLOW THE MORAL CODE AND KILL YOUR CHILDREN. You brought it up, siting it as some apparent flaw in her code. It is clear that you can not kill your child without causing harm- but it appears that you *can* kill your child while following the will of GOD.

So really, in terms of your question about weather or not pagans could kill children and it would be wicca-cool-

WHAT IS *YOUR* FUCKING POINT?


Just because you are better at arguing others in circles and you TEACH logic, therefor your arguments are all beautiful and logical and rational and acedemic- DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT.

And well, if this is harsh- so is calling a newbe a moron because they don't know the ins and outs of your fucking holy sacred discipline of LOGIC.

Have you ever even taken a course in basic Logic?

Look, you said that the story of Abraham was prime example of subjectivity of morality. YOU said that. I showed that, no, working with story its an appeal to an objective "Will of God". You brought up the referrant, I showed how the referrent was not, in fact, a referrant of subjectivity.

It doesn't matter if it actually happened or not. You used a poor premise and now you don't even seem to acknoweldge what you previously said as a backer to your point. You're saying that because nobody could corroborate Abraham, then that... what? Makes it subjective now? Where are you getting your definitions from?



Contradictions of authors does not represent a subjectivity of knowledge. It represents an inaccuracy of recollection and transcription (at the least).

Even the story of the seven blind brothers... they all interpreted the elephant differently, but there was still an elephant--their lack of corroboration wasn't indicative of a subjective world, but an inaccuracy in their description.

You are a moron.



That has--and listen close--absoultely nothing to do with whether the world is or is not subjective by nature.

Are you the mark of the average Pagan? I really, really hope not.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Re: since im turning in I'm leaving this for your enjoyment

Originally posted by Amy Sweet
Only if, like Joe you can argue the definition of 'harm' even against what even the dictionary says it means.

If "all things are subjective" so are definitions and the bounds of those definitions. Its one of the reasons I believe "all things are subjective" is a bullshit buzz-phrase.

Originally posted by Amy Sweet
Hmm, so if we disagree, therefor only one of us can be right.


I choose me.









Sweet.

I think you're making the wrong choice... but that's expectable, I have really high standards.

Originally posted by Amy Sweet
This is even more off topic than the rest of the thread.

Woodnymph, I'm begging you- don't go there. He'll have you arguing about this for 10 pages and even if you win (you won't) it won't get you one step closer to the point you were trying to make about paganism.

That our argument had nothing to do with whether there were contradictions in the Bible or not (and, props to those who caught that, I wasn't the only one who was WTF-ing about it) means that, no, I'm not inclined to argue that. Its a distraction from the point of the original discussion. I won't go so far as to say it was a deliberate attempt to draw attention away from being wrong, but it almost seems that way.

I have few problems with the points about Paganism. I think Earl can attest to that. I have huge problems with the whole "Abraham was subjectivity and all things are subjective even though I can't produce one solid arugment that defends that point" bullshit.