Outsourcing Jobs, in the news again!

[amicus]

Outsourcing…


As the Democrat’s Nominating Convention is about to get underway, (in Boston of all places, go figure), the anti-business media is getting an early start by announcing that ‘more jobs are being sent out of the country…’

What the ‘left’ will not admit and the ‘right’ lacks the courage to exploit, is the fact that ‘jobs’ as with every other commodity, is a function of the market place.

In a ‘free market’ where supply and demand dictates both the quantity and quality of goods produced and the costs and prices, it also determines wages and salaries paid workers and employees.

Regrettably the United States enjoys only a ‘partial’ free market place. Union Labor for well over half a century, along with ‘liberal administrations’ in the White House, have inflated wages and salaries to a point that producers can no longer compete for labor in the ‘local’ market place.

The function of any market system is to produce desired products and services in the quantity and quality demanded and at a ‘price’ that reflects the value of the commodity to the consumer. The function of the market is Not to provide ‘living wages’ (whatever that might mean) to any and all.

Hand in glove, Labor and Government have joined to raise wages, prices and taxes to a point where the average worker cannot afford the ‘basics’ of existence, Food, Shelter, Clothing, Medical care and transportation on a single income.

Thus the obscenity of ‘working mothers’, fathers’ with two or more jobs, heavy debt and increasing tension and frustration.’

Is there a solution to this dilemma? Probably not.

Neither political party will curb Union demands. The Left will continue to raise taxes and spend the limit on social programs while cutting Military spending.. The Right will continue to cut taxes but spend and increase the deficit, raising the cost of ‘borrowed money’ (Loans at all levels) and maintain high levels of military preparedness.

Until such time when Unions are stripped of power and Government is forbidden to pay wages and salaries above the competitive market rate, then there will be no solution.

I fully expect the ‘true believers’ to recant the mantra of a ‘command economy’ and how well it functions, of course, they do so with no example to hold up. Controlled economy’s simply do not work.

Enjoy the ride, maybe you can put your kids to work.

Amicus…

 

[SnoopDog]

There's been a huge strike in Germany at Daimler Benz because they plan on outsourcing jobs. It'll always be a major issue with big companies in any industrialized country. And I think it'll become worse.

Snoopy

 

[amicus]

Yes, I saw that on the news...thank you... As I understand it many European nations are heavily unionized and tax heavily to support programs of 'socialized medicine'.

I wonder how the average American would respond if they were suddenly placed in a 70% tax rate bracket as many in Europe are?

amicus

 

[SnoopDog]

Yes, I saw that on the news...thank you... As I understand it many European nations are heavily unionized and tax heavily to support programs of 'socialized medicine'.

I wonder how the average American would respond if they were suddenly placed in a 70% tax rate bracket as many in Europe are?

amicus

But then again we don't have to work two jobs in order to afford health insurances

Snoopy

 

[amicus]

Point well made, snoop....however, reports I have read over the years, many from Canada, are very unhappy with the quality of care received under government health plans.

There is also a question in my mind as to what the suppliers of health care, Doctors and Nurses, think about being 'directed' as to what medical procedures and treatments the are 'allowed' to administer.

There seems to be both a Doctor and Nurse shortage in Canada, does that hold true for Europe also?

amicus...

 

[SnoopDog]

Point well made, snoop....however, reports I have read over the years, many from Canada, are very unhappy with the quality of care received under government health plans.

There is also a question in my mind as to what the suppliers of health care, Doctors and Nurses, think about being 'directed' as to what medical procedures and treatments the are 'allowed' to administer.

There seems to be both a Doctor and Nurse shortage in Canada, does that hold true for Europe also?

amicus...

Well, as far as I know there actually is a shortage in Doctors (don't know abut nurses though, I think it's a pretty popular job over here). Don't know why. Maybe it's tough to become one, probably it's not too easy to open your own [missing the word], you know, like an office.

I think Doctors are not too satisified by this 'direction' from above, since they often are restrained in what to offer the patient.
Health care is on the decline here in Germany, making anything more expensive or just reducing the things you get for free.
In fact a recent law was passed that says you have to pay 10 € per quarter year when you visit a doctor, no matter what's done or to do. Everytime you would go there you have to pay 10 € cash. You also have to pay more for medication that you might need, etc., etc.

Only if you have a decent wage you can afford to be in a private health insurance, which gives you better treatment in general. There are also Doctors who only take 'Privatpatienten' (=privately insured patients) instead of 'Kassenpatienten' (= people that have the provided-by-law-insurance)

So if the quality of the health care decreases any further people (doctors and patients) will really get mad.

Snoopy

 

[Guest]

Depends which part of Europe you mean! It's a big CONTINENT, containing many different countries, all with different governments and health care systems.

In Britain we have the NHS, and in my own experience, it's damn fine!

Also, no 70% tax rate here. The highest is 40%.

Starting rate 10% £0 - £2,020

Basic rate 22% £2 021 - £31 400

Higher rate 40% Over £31 400

Edited, cos I got my figures wrong.

Lou

 

[Guest]

Point well made, snoop....however, reports I have read over the years, many from Canada, are very unhappy with the quality of care received under government health plans.

Same is true in the states with HMOs and private care. It's the medical profession that needs reform, which includes better wages for those who do the preparatory and aftercare (nurses). - Perdita

 

[Couture]

Outsourcing…

Until such time when Unions are stripped of power and Government is forbidden to pay wages and salaries above the competitive market rate, then there will be no solution.

I fully expect the ‘true believers’ to recant the mantra of a ‘command economy’ and how well it functions, of course, they do so with no example to hold up. Controlled economy’s simply do not work.

Enjoy the ride, maybe you can put your kids to work.

Amicus…

Only problem with your arguement is that union membership is almost at an all time low. From the height of membership of over 40% during the 50's, it's now down to 8%. The great union boogyman just doesn't hold up anymore. Neither does the fact that we have welfare and social security programs.

Ask yourself what has changed. Our factory jobs have moved overseas. They didn't just magically disappear in your town and somehow reappear in Bandladesh. The company closed up shop, and took their money and invested it overseas, to build the factory and train the workers. Your government, bought and paid for by large corporations, provided tax incentives to do so.

The gap between rich and poor has grown astronomically. After inflation the majority of us are poorer and deeper in debt than we were ten years ago. In just this year alone, those in the highest tax bracket have watched their net worth go up 37%.

So don't you come off and tell me that it's my fault that jobs are going overseas. It's the fault of the fucking billionaires who decide to move these jobs overseas.

I tell you what. If we start forming some goddamn picket lines in front of these stores selling goods made using virtual slave labor, I'll bet we can stop these jobs from going overseas.

Service economy my ass.

-Couture

 

[Couture]

70% tax rate? Shit, have you told the truth about anything?

George, is that you?

 

[amicus]

Snoopdog....more than just a thank you for confirming what I hear on the news.

The press, being the way it is, is loathe to publicize the failure of the 'liberal dream' of 'free health care for all. the realities are much different.

My take on US Medicine is that the AMA purposely limits the number of medical students so as to keep Doctors in high demand. Further, the AMA has influenced legislation that limits what 'paramedics' can do..again, so as to price the skills of the MD far above what it should be.

It is a confusing world sometimes...

amicus

 

[SnoopDog]

Snoopdog....more than just a thank you for confirming what I hear on the news.

The press, being the way it is, is loathe to publicize the failure of the 'liberal dream' of 'free health care for all. the realities are much different.

My take on US Medicine is that the AMA purposely limits the number of medical students so as to keep Doctors in high demand. Further, the AMA has influenced legislation that limits what 'paramedics' can do..again, so as to price the skills of the MD far above what it should be.

It is a confusing world sometimes...

amicus

Even if you're having a serious health problem I think it's not always granted that you get free surgery for example.

Or for instance I think each person has only a limited number of psychological therapies, even if you have a serious psychological problem.
Then again it's as bad as in the US yet. Here no ER would refuse to accept you as a patient and if you needed a heart transplantion you'D probably get it.

Snoopy

 

[amicus]

Couture....I think the current Union level is around 13%, but I will check...first things first

http://money.guardian.co.uk/tax/story/0,1456,681871,00.html



Top Dividend Tax Rate Combined Individual and Corporate

Japan 70.9 %
USA 70.1 %
Lixembourg 67.0%
France 66.1%
Turkey 59.4%
Denmark 58 %
Canada 57.9%


The above PDF graph information at: http://money.guardian.co.uk/tax/story/0,1456,681871,00.html

This is just the tip of the iceberg of taxation. Not counted in are punitive social taxes of the sale of gasoline, (petrol) in good ole Europe. Alcohol and Tobacco products, automobiles and other ‘luxury taxes’ on jewelry, boats, aircraft, most of which apply only to high income individuals.

The progressive tax is intended to punish the wealthy because, as someone said, ‘they can afford it.”

What is not recognized nor taken into consideration is that the confiscatory rate of taxation on high income producers limits the amount of ‘venture capital’ available for new business, which limits both growth and employment.

I spent 30 years and more, writing headlines and conducting a ‘talk radio show’ in major markets.

I plead guilty to ‘sensational statements’ intended to catch the eye and the ire of those in opposition. However, as demonstrated above, my postulations are based on ‘fact’ and truth, even if the ‘whole’ truth is not evident in the initial statement.

Take your sour grapes elsewhere my friend. Confiscatory taxation is a curse to the well being of citizens of every nation. The 30 percent ‘average’ rate of taxation in Great Britain and elsewhere, means that a working person works nearly a third of his life to support government programs, most of which do not benefit the ‘average’ individual thus taxed. Instead they go to support such boondoggle projects as the Chunnel, which will never pay for itself and was a tremendous drain on the British and French economy.

Amicus the unmentionable…..

 

[amicus]

Couture...number two...


http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv21n3/v21n3-ftr4.pdf


The first paragraph states: “Since 1954 the unionized portion of the American work force has dropped from 32 percent to 14 percent…..”

Not to be picky, but accuracy is sometimes important.

Labor Unions are the outgrowth of Medieval European Guilds, wherein access to employment was limited in order to keep the services of those accepted by the ‘Guild’ at a premium.

A ‘free’ organization of any kind, labor included, is a function of a free society. My objection to ‘unions’ in general, whether the are for Medical Doctors, Teachers or Auto workers and Miners, is that they tend to lobby for benefits for their membership by sacrificing the rights of those not protected by the union.

You are surely aware of the corruption in the major unions during the 50’s and 60’s that led to the decline in membership and the ‘distaste’ most people have for ‘forced’ union membership.

Union consolidation has held off progress in many industries by delaying technical innovations that would transfer labor from the backs of men to the machines of industry.

In doing so, they have increased the price of the products they produce, opened the market place to more ‘modern’ techniques of manufacturing and flooded the market with Japanese automobiles, steel and beef from all over the world.

Simply because American labor unions have priced their labor outside the market places ability to pay and produce goods and services at competitive prices.

I am hard pressed to point to even one ‘benefit’ provided by unionized labor in the history of its existence. And don’t even go back to the ‘sweatshops’ and length of the workday and ‘safety measures’. You don’t have a case.

Amicus

 

[gauchecritic]

I am hard pressed to point to even one ‘benefit’ provided by unionized labor in the history of its existence. And don’t even go back to the ‘sweatshops’ and length of the workday and ‘safety measures’. You don’t have a case.

Amicus

The British Labour Party springs immediately to mind as a 'benefit', I won't mention the three things above which came about exclusively through unionisation because I apparently don't have a case. But what about 'extended education', residential retirement homes, cheap holidays or re-couperation hostels?

So unions put hindrance in the way of manufacturers, have you ever actually read any simple economics theory?

In a ‘free market’ where supply and demand dictates both the quantity and quality of goods produced and the costs and prices, it also determines wages and salaries paid workers and employees.

You make a product at a price. The more product you make, the cheaper it is and therefore more profitable. Ask yourself at what point a manufacturer decides his best output is. Its not at the point of 'diminishing returns' (making more than he can sell and therefore losing income) it's not at the point of greatest output for grossest profit (very top of the curve), it's at the point of greatest profit for least production.

Simply; at the price that the market will stand. Selling one pair of Nike trainers for $500 rather than two pairs for $250.

And guess what, people in jobs are actually selling something too so they go for the highest price they can, just like the bosses.

Sacrificing rights of non-union workers. Where exactly do they do that? On the shop floor? From factory to factory? Country to country?

I don't belong to a union but when my management agree to a particular wage for a particular job every one doing that job gets that wage.

Transferring labour from the backs of workers onto machines has never in the history of the industrialised world been a beneficence for the average worker, only to production figures. More often than not it doesn't increase output (for reasons see above) it merely means a smaller wage bill.

So when the AMA uses your free market economy practices to force up the price of doctoring then you cry.

Doctors and nurses supplying a less than complete range of treatments is due to the fact of budgeting, which happens because there are only so many tax dollars to go round. Your free market again. No one to pay for a by-pass op. no one gets one.

Try thinking before you post again, rather than just ranting about your precious market economy not working.

Gauche

 

[amicus]

Gauche...

The 'British Labour Party...is a 'political party' an arm of the government, is it not?

Government of course has the right to tax and confiscate wealth and distribute it as they see fit.

But 'labour unions' are a different story.


Perhaps in your bovine minded countryside the concept of 'competition' has withered on the vine.

Your rant about 'free market business practices' studiously ignores the reality of the 'free' market place.

When one producer begins to pay lower wages, or produce inferior products, or tolerate dangerous working conditions, 'competion' rears its lovely head and another enterprise cuts prices, raises wages or provides a safer work environment, whatever it takes to gain a share of the market.

I realize you are somewhat at a disadvantage, gauche, as the London School of Economics has not taught, 'classical' free market economics for nearly half a century. I could suggest a few books and an independent course of study if you are interested.

I begin to realize that for many, it is much more comfortable just to conform, do what one is told, work and consume as directed and be happy little proletariats.

Thats why we left the dark continent of Europe in the first place. Few Americans ever chose to seek citizenship in GB, but your folks wait in long lines just for the chance to come here.

"Give us your huddles masses..." Well...we took 'em..from all over the medieval, castle strewn countryside of slave Europe and set them free! And still they come!

And, oh my goodness...what a country they made.

Go get your Big Mac and stuff your face.

Amicus with a smile...

 

[Guest]

Amicus, could you be more crude, condescending, arrogant, bigoted or puerile?

rhetorically, Perdita

 

[amicus]

I will give it my best shot to be more of each.

 

[Couture]

Couture...number two...


http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv21n3/v21n3-ftr4.pdf


The first paragraph states: “Since 1954 the unionized portion of the American work force has dropped from 32 percent to 14 percent…..”

Not to be picky, but accuracy is sometimes important.

Not to be picky but I don't feel it is fair to talk about jobs leaving the US and including federal and state employees in discussions of percentages of employees in unions. It's the private sector that is shipping jobs overseas, not the post office.

Labor Unions are the outgrowth of Medieval European Guilds, wherein access to employment was limited in order to keep the services of those accepted by the ‘Guild’ at a premium.

Organized labor in this country was a rebellion against abuses against workers, bargaining for better pay and working conditions.

A ‘free’ organization of any kind, labor included, is a function of a free society. My objection to ‘unions’ in general, whether the are for Medical Doctors, Teachers or Auto workers and Miners, is that they tend to lobby for benefits for their membership by sacrificing the rights of those not protected by the union.

You are surely aware of the corruption in the major unions during the 50’s and 60’s that led to the decline in membership and the ‘distaste’ most people have for ‘forced’ union membership.

You are surely aware that corruption in corporations during the 1920's -2000s has caused....

Give me a break. The decline in union membership is a direct result of the government allowing business to use strongarm tactics against unions.

Union consolidation has held off progress in many industries by delaying technical innovations that would transfer labor from the backs of men to the machines of industry.

In doing so, they have increased the price of the products they produce, opened the market place to more ‘modern’ techniques of manufacturing and flooded the market with Japanese automobiles, steel and beef from all over the world.

The great union bogeyman again. If this were the case, then it would follow that manufacturing jobs would be flooding into this country now that union membership is declining. It hasn't and it doesn't. There is no link.

However, since the decline of unions, there has been a marked increase in the gap between rich and poor. The rich now allowed to steal the poor's retirement savings. \

Simply because American labor unions have priced their labor outside the market places ability to pay and produce goods and services at competitive prices.

I am hard pressed to point to even one ‘benefit’ provided by unionized labor in the history of its existence. And don’t even go back to the ‘sweatshops’ and length of the workday and ‘safety measures’. You don’t have a case.

Amicus

How can anyone compete? Do you realize what the average Sudanese makes a month? The average Chinese? For just pennies a day, you can hire someone to do my job.

I drive a Ford. My bedroom suite was made in Hickory..not the wood...as in Hickory NC. I could have gotten one made in China, made in a sweatshop much cheaper.

When I can, I use my purchases to support someone with living wage.

However, when a business closes up shop, and puts someone out of work because they don't want to pay a living wage, and transfers that job to a country where they can do what they want to the workers and environment .... well I think it's downright criminal.

And it wasn't so they could remain competitive. As you can see, sneakers and Levis still cost about the same adjusted for inflation. It's a matter of more money going into the pockets of corporate CEOs.

 

[amicus]

If that is what you believe, the for gods sake, dont let facts get in your way.

 

[BlackSnake]

I'm feeling opinionated. Businesses are in the business of making money not to see how many people they can employ.

Just think how many jobs were lost do to the wide spread use of email.

 

[Xelebes]

If that is what you believe, the for gods sake, dont let facts get in your way.

*snorts*

If you're gonna be snide, can I be snivelly too?

 

[Edward Teach]

Gauche...

The 'British Labour Party...is a 'political party' an arm of the government, is it not?

Government of course has the right to tax and confiscate wealth and distribute it as they see fit.

But 'labour unions' are a different story.


Perhaps in your bovine minded countryside the concept of 'competition' has withered on the vine.

Your rant about 'free market business practices' studiously ignores the reality of the 'free' market place.

When one producer begins to pay lower wages, or produce inferior products, or tolerate dangerous working conditions, 'competion' rears its lovely head and another enterprise cuts prices, raises wages or provides a safer work environment, whatever it takes to gain a share of the market.

I realize you are somewhat at a disadvantage, gauche, as the London School of Economics has not taught, 'classical' free market economics for nearly half a century. I could suggest a few books and an independent course of study if you are interested.

I begin to realize that for many, it is much more comfortable just to conform, do what one is told, work and consume as directed and be happy little proletariats.

Thats why we left the dark continent of Europe in the first place. Few Americans ever chose to seek citizenship in GB, but your folks wait in long lines just for the chance to come here.

"Give us your huddles masses..." Well...we took 'em..from all over the medieval, castle strewn countryside of slave Europe and set them free! And still they come!

And, oh my goodness...what a country they made.

Go get your Big Mac and stuff your face.

Amicus with a smile...

Now I understand, Ami. You drive that Jag you brag about to help the US economy.

Ed

 

[snooper]

... Do you realize what the average Sudanese makes a month? The average Chinese? ...
... When I can, I use my purchases to support someone with living wage. ...

Patently, since they are alive and working, they do receive a "living wage".

When you read that someone earns $1 a day, or whatever, this is distorted by three factors.
First, the official exchange rate bears no relation to the true purchasing power of the currency. For example, the lowest price for a bottle of Coca Cola in the world is in Mogadishu where they charge 15 US cents at the official exchange rate, and still make a profit.

The second factor is that the wages earned only supplement things like home grown food, which is significant in some countries, but negligible in most industrial countries.

The third is expectation. You regard a car as a necessity, and for you, where you live, it is. In a country with a much lower standard of living it is regarded as a luxury, and so does not feasture in the "must-buy-with-my-wages" list.

You may say that their standard of living should be higher, and I wouldn't argue, but you will not achieve that by an isolationist purchasing policy.

 

[Couture]

I wouldn't argue, but you will not achieve that by an isolationist purchasing policy.

Nor will you achieve it with a non-isolationist policy. Take a look at what's happened to coffee farmers.

Any reform is going to take government intervention, and my actions are largely selfish in nature. I would rather help my fellow countryman than someone from Pakistan. I would rather the US go from being the largest debtor nation, back to being a creditor...even though it means that someone else is going to have to become the debtor.