Outsourcing, Free Trade Zones, and Importing Foreign Professionals

[Misty_Morning]

OK

I just gotta get this off my chest. The job market is TIGHT and has been so for quite some time.

How many cities in the US have felt the impact of giving away jobs to other countries or importing foreigners for high end technical jobs? LOTS.

Speaking from personal experience....the unemployment rate for chemists in the US is the highest since records have been kept. And yet, for some reason, employers keep saying they need to go overseas to find skilled employees.


BULLSHIT!!

Everywhere I go I meet unemployed chemists or chemists who have had to change careers cuz the jobs have gone to other countries or to foreigners.


And let's not even begin talking bout other trades that have been harder.


We've outsourced our nation to the point of near no return.

God I am pissed.

I'm a pretty nice person, but at this point in time I have to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Keep the jobs here.

 

[SeaCat]

OK

I just gotta get this off my chest. The job market is TIGHT and has been so for quite some time.

How many cities in the US have felt the impact of giving away jobs to other countries or importing foreigners for high end technical jobs? LOTS.

Speaking from personal experience....the unemployment rate for chemists in the US is the highest since records have been kept. And yet, for some reason, employers keep saying they need to go overseas to find skilled employees.


BULLSHIT!!

Everywhere I go I meet unemployed chemists or chemists who have had to change careers cuz the jobs have gone to other countries or to foreigners.


And let's not even begin talking bout other trades that have been harder.


We've outsourced our nation to the point of near no return.

God I am pissed.

I'm a pretty nice person, but at this point in time I have to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Keep the jobs here.

That's not going to happen and we both know it.

Corporations will always look to find cheap labor, if they have to go overseas to get it they will. It doesn't matter if that includes building factories overseas or importing the workers, they will do it.

You see there is a little problem. Americans have this strange idea. They feel that they should receive enough pay to live in their own place and still be able to make ends meet with maybe a little left over at the end of the month for extras. They aren't willing to live ten to a room, go without healthcare for themselves or their children or save up for a loaf of bread. Some of them even dare to thnk about having a day off now and then. Hell some of them even dare to think about owning their own place. This is a problem because this all cuts into the profits of the corporations.

Of course there is a cure for this. The American Worker must agree to go back into servitude, to learn their place and to once again become the slave labor the corporations want. (Oh we must also vote to repeal the laws that tax the corporations.)

Cat

 

[slyc_willie]

Pretty vicious and sarcastic there, Cat.

Outsourcing is nothing new. The USA has been paying China, India, Taiwan, and God knows how many other countries to build our toys and make our clothes for decades.

Except now, suddenly, it's a big issue. "Taking jobs away from Americans." As if any American would work for ten dollars a day.

Okay, Misty, so you're losing your opportunities to cheaper chemists overseas. It doesn't matter if they're really good enough for the job; they have the requisite minimum education, and they're willing to work for less than you. So your options are to ask for less money, or wait . . . and wait . . . and wait for the right opportunity to come along that isn't outsourced.

It's business politics. They've always been there, and always will. It's the same mindset that leads every business to ask for bids on a project. The lowest bidder always wins.

The grade of work is rarely questioned.

 

[Liar]

Keep the jobs here.

Ok.

How?

 

[SeaCat]

Pretty vicious and sarcastic there, Cat.

Outsourcing is nothing new. The USA has been paying China, India, Taiwan, and God knows how many other countries to build our toys and make our clothes for decades.

Except now, suddenly, it's a big issue. "Taking jobs away from Americans." As if any American would work for ten dollars a day.

Okay, Misty, so you're losing your opportunities to cheaper chemists overseas. It doesn't matter if they're really good enough for the job; they have the requisite minimum education, and they're willing to work for less than you. So your options are to ask for less money, or wait . . . and wait . . . and wait for the right opportunity to come along that isn't outsourced.

It's business politics. They've always been there, and always will. It's the same mindset that leads every business to ask for bids on a project. The lowest bidder always wins.

The grade of work is rarely questioned.

You think?

I admit that my views are limited. I look at things as they are from inside the medical field. It would surprise you what's going on here in southern Florida. (I'm sure it's happening all across the United States.)

People wonder why Nurses are leaving the field, they complain about it and yet they have no idea what is going on. If they did know, if they could see beyond the retoric they would scream.

Cat

 

[keeblercrumb]

God I am pissed.

I'm a pretty nice person, but at this point in time I have to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Keep the jobs here.

I have some good news for you. As the dollar continues it's precipitous decline toward worthlessness, you, as an American, will increasing become attractively competitive.

Option 2. Go to where the money and the jobs are..

And last... all the those "foreigners"? Give 'em a couple years and they will be Americans.... so "they" will be "us" who are getting the jobs. End of problem.



I honestly have sympathy for your predicament... anybody who has faced unemployment can appreciate your frustration..... But remember you have the where withal to fix it yourself.... Change jobs, locations, countries, etc..... or start your own business....

None of them are easy, but then, it ain't easy for all those foreigners to come here either!

Just my advice… no offense intended…

-KC

 

[slyc_willie]

You think?

I admit that my views are limited. I look at things as they are from inside the medical field. It would surprise you what's going on here in southern Florida. (I'm sure it's happening all across the United States.)

People wonder why Nurses are leaving the field, they complain about it and yet they have no idea what is going on. If they did know, if they could see beyond the retoric they would scream.

Cat

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me. I see it all over the place. But I wonder if, when people complain about 'outsourcing" (a term rarely used until now; seems to have become a new catch-phrase), they aren't really bitching about getting what they think they're worth.

You mentioned, in another thread, that RNs make $25.00 an hour. Yet, there's still a shortage. What, for twenty-five bucks an hour, they don't want to clean up the messes? They don't want to draw blood? I guess that's what the $11.05/hour orderlies are for . . . .

I have a great deal of respect for nurses. As much as I've been in the hospital, I treat them with as much respect and patience as I can muster. But I think of any medical profession the way I do of the military and law enforcement:

YOU DO IT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO.

It shouldn't be about 'how much money will I make.' When one is in the profession of caring, or protecting others, it's not about the money. It's about doing what you can to perform to your best, for no other reward than to feel better about yourself. To know that you did something worthwhile.

Anyone who focuses purely on money is pathetic. We all need money, of course. But beyond what you need to live comfortably and enjoy an occasional night out, money is superfluous. It's a luxury, not a necessity.

I suppose now I'm being sarcastic and vicious.

 

[keeblercrumb]

I suppose now I'm being sarcastic and vicious.

No.... but a little unreasonable. Perhaps "society" should provide fair compensation for those whose jobs involve "caring"..... They should be treated as valued and honored members of our society by those of us engaged in more self-serving pursuits.....

I begrudge them not.... The emotional price this people "pay" on our behalf should not be compounded by added financial burden. Somehow, we find the where withal to fairly compensate Doctors..... and I think they are worth it too!

-KC

 

[slyc_willie]

No.... but a little unreasonable. Perhaps "society" should provide fair compensation for those whose jobs involve "caring"..... They should be treated as valued and honored members of our society by those of us engaged in more self-serving pursuits.....

I begrudge them not.... The emotional price this people "pay" on our behalf should not be compounded by added financial burden. Somehow, we find the where withal to fairly compensate Doctors..... and I think they are worth it too!

-KC

Explain to me how I am being unreasonable.

Certain jobs should not carry the promise of material reward, in my opnion. Otherwise, the door is open for opportunists who seek only those rewards and not the satisfaction of their job.

Ask a soldier if the $1200 a month he is being paid is worth his life. Let me tell you, money doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes down to fighting for what you believe in. Nor should it when you are bringing someone back to life after a car accident, or caring for them after they recover.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Explain to me how I am being unreasonable.

Certain jobs should not carry the promise of material reward, in my opnion. Otherwise, the door is open for opportunists who seek only those rewards and not the satisfaction of their job.

Ask a soldier if the $1200 a month he is being paid is worth his life. Let me tell you, money doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes down to fighting for what you believe in. Nor should it when you are bringing someone back to life after a car accident, or caring for them after they recover.

So anybody who wants to be in the medical profession, or teach or be a policeman or a soldier, they should do it for free? And live in poverty? Is that reasonable?

Isn't it enough that we ask them to put their lives, their emotions, their commitment on the line for others, you want them to take a vow of poverty too? Well some do, of course, but others have families and want to live a decent life. They don't expect to be rich in any material sense, as may you and I, for instance, so they forego that... but we are not talking about wanting the big bucks... I don't understand why you think we should punish them financially just because they choose to serve the rest of us with their very jobs.....

That is how you are being unreasonable.

-KC

 

[slyc_willie]

So anybody who wants to be in the medical profession, or teach or be a policeman or a soldier, they should do it for free? And live in poverty? Is that reasonable?

Isn't it enough that we ask them to put their lives, their emotions, their commitment on the line for others, you want them to take a vow of poverty too? Well some do, of course, but others have families and want to live a decent life. They don't expect to be rich in any material sense, as may you and I, for instance, so they forego that... but we are not talking about wanting the big bucks... I don't understand why you think we should punish them financially just because they choose to serve the rest of us with their very jobs.....

That is how you are being unreasonable.

-KC

Point out where I said 'poverty.'

 

[slyc_willie]

Okay, um, answer: I didn't.

Like many a politician, you looked for an argument and found one. Fine. Go right ahead.

I said that certain jobs should not carry the promise of material reward. I can see how your mind would warp that into an advocation of 'poverty.'

*sigh* Guess I need to speak in simpler sentences.

A person who ventures into the fields of teaching or nursing does so understanding that the material reward will not be great. So why do they do it? Because they want to. Because a part of them senses that they have something to give, altruistically.

They still live a good life. They can afford a home and car and cable TV. There is no implication of poverty. But neither are there any grand promises for living the high life.

 

[amicus]

Not that this will seem to make sense at all on this thread, but...

I reside, by choice, near a small rural community, I like it here. I try to do what business I have to do, locally, if possible, rather than drive to a larger city and I like the personal relationship with the people.

My lil ole Chevy Blazer is running a little rough, so I stopped in at the only gas and repair station in town and inquired as to a plug and oil change.

$30.00 for the oil change, $90.00 plus parts for the plugs. The mechanic kind of apologized, "I gotta charge $60.00 an hour for my labor."

I will purchase the parts and do the work myself.

If I could find a Mexican immigrant to do it cheaper, I would outsource to him, or even her, ahem.

American laborers have priced themselves outside the market. Whose fault is that?

Amicus...

 

[slyc_willie]

Not that this will seem to make sense at all on this thread, but...

I reside, by choice, near a small rural community, I like it here. I try to do what business I have to do, locally, if possible, rather than drive to a larger city and I like the personal relationship with the people.

My lil ole Chevy Blazer is running a little rough, so I stopped in at the only gas and repair station in town and inquired as to a plug and oil change.

$30.00 for the oil change, $90.00 plus parts for the plugs. The mechanic kind of apologized, "I gotta charge $60.00 an hour for my labor."

I will purchase the parts and do the work myself.

If I could find a Mexican immigrant to do it cheaper, I would outsource to him, or even her, ahem.

American laborers have priced themselves outside the market. Whose fault is that?

Amicus...

Depending on where you live, I might say it's the problem of the local economy. Why does the mechanic feel he has to charge so much? Price of living, perhaps?

Or maybe its a sense of his own inflated self-worth? I mean, who is really worth $60.00 an hour? Not even streetwalkers charge that much.

 

[amicus]

Dunno fer sure, slyc...Living in Biloxi a few years back, my little sports car developed a computer problem that I could not solve.; the going rate for mechanics even then was $30.00 an hour.

And twenty years ago, as an independent contractor, meaning I worked on my own, paid the radio station a percentage of the advertisements I ran and I made $300.00 a day for a three hour show, or $100.00 an hour, so, go figure.

And thas peanuts to someone like Handprints and Xssve in the financial world, so, I dunno...

Amicus...

 

[keeblercrumb]

Okay, um, answer: I didn't.

Like many a politician, you looked for an argument and found one. Fine. Go right ahead.

I said that certain jobs should not carry the promise of material reward. I can see how your mind would warp that into an advocation of 'poverty.'

*sigh* Guess I need to speak in simpler sentences.

A person who ventures into the fields of teaching or nursing does so understanding that the material reward will not be great. So why do they do it? Because they want to. Because a part of them senses that they have something to give, altruistically.

They still live a good life. They can afford a home and car and cable TV. There is no implication of poverty. But neither are there any grand promises for living the high life.

Friend.... you do not need to speak in simpler sentences for my benefit, nor did I deserve this gratuitious insult... If you may remember, I only bespoke that your self-characterization of you being sarcastic and vicious was simply more like unreasonable. Perhaps you were right, after all.

But for all that, it is clear that we are "violently agreeing" as they say....

Clearly when a soldier is being shot at, or a nurse is providing life saving procedures, they are not thinking about money. But when it comes to re-enlisting or re-signing their contract, of course they will think about their families, etc.. And that is how you should expect them to think.

-KC

 

[thebullet]

What is happening, of course, is that we are seeing the destruction of the American middle class, one profession at a time.

Some of us on this forum find that a horrible turn of events, and some of us are all right with that.

My suspicion is that those who are all right with that are those whose professions are not yet under attack. Don't worry, my free economy friends. Your time may well eventually come.

Many people complained about NAFTA sending American jobs south of the border. Our capitalism-at-any-cost friends merely smiled and said: 'retrain yourselves, stop bitching about the job loss or the increased pollution because Mexico has no regulations. The economy will correct itself as it should'.

Those very same 'capitalism-at-any-cost' people are now bitterly bitching about illegal immigration from Mexico. Why? Gues what? NAFTA fucked Mexican workers just as badly as it is fucking American workers. We built all of those factories across the Rio, Mexican workers left the farm to take advantage of the job opportunities on their side of the border. Then our multi-national companies found they could get even cheaper labor with fewer restrictions in Asia. The Mexican factories were closed and millions there found themselves jobless.

Mexicans swarmed across the border for a better life. (Don't tell them to go back to their farms---that way is closed to them by cheap American agriculture). So they can make more working menial jobs in the USA than they can doing anything in Mexico.

Why are you complaining about illegal immigration, capitalists? It is merely the unfettered economy correcting itself, as you wish it to.

 

[amicus]

the bullet...enjoyed your stories, told you so, also told you they were tainted by your politics and so are your posts...

Rather than confront your insinuations, let me just strip you butt assed naked....

You advocate isolationism and protectionism for American jobs and union labor, you want to close the borders to all trade, coming or going and defend the status quo while the rest of the world moves on.

Why?

Amicus...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MISTY MORNING

My alma mater is training foreign chemists and engineers, by the thousands, at your expense....that is, the school is a public university. More and more of the faculty and admin positions are going to Indians and Pakistanis, too.

That's how it works.

I posted, a while back, the causes of the American Revolution. The causes were British corporations with monopolies that controlled commerce and jobs in America. They strangled Americans until war erupted. Its happening again.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

I'm with BULLET on this one. Mostly for 2 reasons.

One: American corporations control competition here via the politicians. That is, what I can do for a living is restricted by the laws pols make, and the pols favor their masters. Parliament did the same to the colonists, that is made laws favorable to Brit corporations and punitive to colonists. American taxpayers are educating Indians and Pakistanis et al who work for large American corporations in their native countries.

Two: I'm all for people living where they want and can afford, but I have a big problem with people moving in next door who roast goats on the front yard, and then boil their laundry on the same fire. Mexicans workers do not play by the same rules the rest of us are saddled with by government. Government looks the other way when employers violate the laws. My nephew went out of business using American labor, he couldnt compete with the companies who use Mexicans, who sleep in their cars and get no benefits and pay no taxes. The double-standard is seriously fucking up the hood.

 

[amicus]

AMICUS

I'm with BULLET on this one. Mostly for 2 reasons.

One: American corporations control competition here via the politicians. That is, what I can do for a living is restricted by the laws pols make, and the pols favor their masters. Parliament did the same to the colonists, that is made laws favorable to Brit corporations and punitive to colonists. American taxpayers are educating Indians and Pakistanis et al who work for large American corporations in their native countries.

Two: I'm all for people living where they want and can afford, but I have a big problem with people moving in next door who roast goats on the front yard, and then boil their laundry on the same fire. Mexicans workers do not play by the same rules the rest of us are saddled with by government. Government looks the other way when employers violate the laws. My nephew went out of business using American labor, he couldnt compete with the companies who use Mexicans, who sleep in their cars and get no benefits and pay no taxes. The double-standard is seriously fucking up the hood.

~~~

You make some excellent points JBJ, and I cannnot rationally offer much to confront your conclusions, but, I do, in a small way.

I just made an appointment for an annual physical examination in a new place, a new doctor whom I have not met. The name of the Doctor is Parveen, I have no idea who it might be and the appointment is for February, a shortage here also of medical folks.

Parveen is a girls name from the sub continent of India and it means, 'Star', a heavenly body, ah well, maybe, maybe not, but a lady doctor for me? Gads.

America is an immigrant nation, I need not tell you that, but when the influx of Irish and Dutch and Germans came through Ellis Island, they did things as strange as roasting a goat that repelled those who called themselves Americans.

I don't see American Corporate interests as being as powerful and influential as you do. I listened to the CEO's of the major energy companies being grilled in Senate and House Investigative committees following Katrina and felt that they would rather move their corporate assets overseas than try to fight the red tape of US government regulations.

Big business, industry, corporations have been the target for more than half a century. If you want to understand where the power really remains, look closely at the labor unions who dictate policy at all levels.

The Financial world, Handprints province, is another story, but that too, has moved offshore along with the Insurance Industry, are also far more influential than corporations offering goods and services.

It is not that I have a disagreement with you, only that I suggest a broader base for causal events that you purport exists.

I also suggest that the emerging global, internet, broad band, high speed age of transaction is something none of us know about and we are learning as we go and that is always a risky proposition.

Although you may not appreciate the goat, transitions occur and not always in a gentile manner. When the Cubans bought and moved into the Black neighborhoods in Miami, the crime rate went down, the lawns were mowed and the streets were clean and people could walk in safety again. The same thing happened in the infamous Watts, district of Los Angeles as the Hispanics moved in and the Blacks moved out.

Go figure...

Amicus...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

I agree with your philosophy. I'm a free-trader and liberty lovin guy. And I have some experiences with immigrants who settle in upscale neighborhoods, then roast goats and boil the laundry in the front yard. Or rent homes and sub-let to 10 of their friends....so the yard looks like El Cheapo Used Cars.

But I have problems with the double-standards the government allows. Nigerians, for example, line up for affirmative-action benefits. Huh?

The folks who pay the bills are getting sodomized.

 

[amicus]

Bend over and grab your ankles, Uncle Sam has a hard on...what else is new?

Ami...

 

[Liar]

Keep the jobs here.

I repeat: How?

Forbidding employment of foreign nationals, forbidding outsourcing services to foreign providers and forbidding trade with foreign manufacturers and subcontractors?

 

[rgraham666]

As long as our idea of how capitalism works, what it can accomplish, and whether we serve it or it serves us, remains essentially Marxist we will continue to have these problems.