Our old war vets and ex-POWs hate America

[phrodeau]

Hey, an internet search says that the address is really LT's mom's house.

Or 603 is his mom. 603-A must be the basement.

 

[Redneck_Cowboy]

Great AV LT. A racist in sheeps clothing.

 

[busybody..]

They don't hate America, they hate what Americans have become.

What was America

What has America become?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Hey, an internet search says that the address is really LT's mom's house.

Or 603 is his mom. 603-A must be the basement.

It's your girlfriend's cunt.

 

[PannieMonster]

Oh don't you worry. I'll be there at the time you agree to meet.

Don't plan on returning to Texas until the doc removes my foot from your ass.

In the mean time start thinking of reasons why you can't show up. Can we start with your mom wouldn't go with you to help you with reading the road signs?

I can think of several reasons why I don't need to come after you, none of which involve me being afraid of you. You post a bogus address which wastes my time and secondly you aren't worth the time or energy. Just so you can claim victory and to give you bragging rights, let me just say, ok LT, you win, so........


Tell him what he won Bob:

Loooooving Tongue! Congratulations! As our grand prize winner, you will receive the all new Ginsu 3! That's right! It slices, it dices, just like the original Ginsu! It'll even gut yout favorite honky like a fish! Watch as we demonstrate how the all new Ginsu 3 will cut through bone and it's still sharp enough to fillet the butt cheeks off this ugly fat white chick! Isn't that amazing? You'll have hours of fun with the new Ginsu 3. No need to curb stomp those white racists when you can gut them all like fish! And that's not all, as our grand prize winner, you also receive a brand new set of stainless steel steak knives! And..our very own play at home internet bad ass board game! Thanks again for playing, LT, our new grand prize winner!

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I can think of several reasons why I don't need to come after you, none of which involve me being afraid of you. You post a bogus address which wastes my time and secondly you aren't worth the time or energy. Just so you can claim victory and to give you bragging rights, let me just say, ok LT, you win, so........


Tell him what he won Bob:

Loooooving Tongue! Congratulations! As our grand prize winner, you will receive the all new Ginsu 3! That's right! It slices, it dices, just like the original Ginsu! It'll even gut yout favorite honky like a fish! Watch as we demonstrate how the all new Ginsu 3 will cut through bone and it's still sharp enough to fillet the butt cheeks off this ugly fat white chick! Isn't that amazing? You'll have hours of fun with the new Ginsu 3. No need to curb stomp those white racists when you can gut them all like fish! And that's not all, as our grand prize winner, you also receive a brand new set of stainless steel steak knives! And..our very own play at home internet bad ass board game! Thanks again for playing, LT, our new grand prize winner!

Ok now let's get this all straight.

I posted a thread that wasn't even hostile towards vets (it was hostile towards neo cons, not vets, you moron)

and you came charging in here with your panties all in a knot

whining about how you felt all offended by my non-offensive remarks

while pulling a Don Imus

then hurling threats and pulling a Don Imus again

all the while trying to impress me with your imaginary military service record

and you are going to accuse ME of playing the whiny internet badass?


You are the original whining internet badass wannabe in this thread. That's established fact.

I dare anyone to challenge me on that.

 

[PannieMonster]

Ok now let's get this all straight.

I posted a thread that wasn't even hostile towards vets (it was hostile towards neo cons, not vets, you moron)

and you came charging in here with your panties all in a knot

whining about how you felt all offended by my non-offensive remarks

while pulling a Don Imus

then hurling threats and pulling a Don Imus again

all the while trying to impress me with your imaginary military service record

and you are going to accuse ME of playing the whiny internet badass?


You are the original whining internet badass wannabe in this thread. That's established fact.

I dare anyone to challenge me on that.

Alright, I'm going to speak to your intellect rather than your persona LT. If I can't get through to you with this one post, you are going on ignore and I'll never bother you again.

Putting all our differences aside for one minute.

I believe you have posted on different occasions that you have a wife, are adopting 3 African kids, I think it was, and lastly you own a business. What that tells me is that you are probably a middle class guy that cares about his family with some real sense of rationale. I really don't know if you are black, white, pink or purple just as you have no clue what I am.

Yet, you come onto this board, telling everyone what a badass you are. You know what I'm talking about. The curb stomping white racists, scaring some little kid that called you a monkey and the many other crazy stories that you tell. I don't know if you think that impresses someone or if you even realize how ridiculous that sounds. Then you post a thread with the title of how vets hate America which in and of itself is misleading. I read the story that you posted. Vets hating America was not what the story was about.

Did I view it as an insult? Sure I did. I am a vet whether you want to believe it or not. It's insulting to me. Did I overreact? Sure I did, much the same way you overreact when someone uses a racial slur.

You made some pretty good threats yourself didn't you? Going to gut me like a fish, dance on my grave, etc. Knowing that you are not about to jeopardize your future, your family's future or your life, I know you aren't about to drive across Texas to come after me any more than I would come to California and jeopardize my future. Let's be honest with one another, all this bad ass talk is just posturing, nothing more. We have both played this game far too long to shit each other.

I don't know where you been or what you have done in your life LT, but coming face to face with an opponent with the intent to kill them is a big step. It is one that most people don't have the stomach for. Even old war veterans don't have the stomach for it because they have seen it and did what they had to do at the time. I'm no exception. I'm sure you really don't have the stomach for it either, so let's not kid ourselves.

I don't pretend to be any internet bad ass. The only one on this board that I've ever had this kind of run in with is you. Now, you can say whatever you like, but my last post was to show you just how ridiculous this whole thing really is.

Unlike BlackShanglan, I don't want to waste my time arguing a mute point with you for weeks, months or even years. I'm sure you don't either.

We can chose to shake hands, make our apologies to one another and walk away having learned a little bit about each other, or we can continue this most ridiculous and absurd display of lunacy. The choice is yours.

You don't have to respond right away. Take some time and think about it. You offended me, I offended you and in the end neither of us is better for it. I'm man enough to offer an apology for a misunderstanding and I'm sure you are a big enough man to do the same.

What do you say?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Alright, I'm going to speak to your intellect rather than your persona LT. If I can't get through to you with this one post, you are going on ignore and I'll never bother you again.

Putting all our differences aside for one minute.

I believe you have posted on different occasions that you have a wife, are adopting 3 African kids, I think it was, and lastly you own a business. What that tells me is that you are probably a middle class guy that cares about his family with some real sense of rationale. I really don't know if you are black, white, pink or purple just as you have no clue what I am.

So no successful middle class person has spent their childhood in the hood, where survival of the fittest was the norm?

Rly?

I seek ease and comfort for my kids, but I come from a place where very few of my schoolmates are alive today.

(edited to snip out the hostility)

You know what I'm talking about. The curb stomping white racists, scaring some little kid that called you a monkey and the many other crazy stories that you tell. I don't know if you think that impresses someone or if you even realize how ridiculous that sounds.

Or maybe it is what really happened and I don't care what it sounds like to anyone.

Then you post a thread with the title of how vets hate America which in and of itself is misleading. I read the story that you posted. Vets hating America was not what the story was about.

Exactly. My point was, if liberals said what these VETS had said, we'd be accused of HATING AMERICA.

I do this kind of switcheroo all the time.

Did I view it as an insult? Sure I did. I am a vet whether you want to believe it or not. It's insulting to me. Did I overreact? Sure I did, much the same way you overreact when someone uses a racial slur.

You made some pretty good threats yourself didn't you? Going to gut me like a fish, dance on my grave, etc. Knowing that you are not about to jeopardize your future, your family's future or your life, I know you aren't about to drive across Texas to come after me any more than I would come to California and jeopardize my future. Let's be honest with one another, all this bad ass talk is just posturing, nothing more. We have both played this game far too long to shit each other.

No, I'm not going to drive across Texas to come after you. For one reason. I did it once and the other dude showed up. Ok, 2 reasons. Because you at least can show some hint of reason.

You've gone 10,000 times further as a man than Ulaven Demorte, Ishmael or all the other big bad talkers with this paragraph alone. Take that for what it is.

I don't know where you been or what you have done in your life LT, but coming face to face with an opponent with the intent to kill them is a big step. It is one that most people don't have the stomach for. Even old war veterans don't have the stomach for it because they have seen it and did what they had to do at the time. I'm no exception. I'm sure you really don't have the stomach for it either, so let's not kid ourselves.

News Flash: I'm nice when people are nice to me, but I do not ever tolerate anyone's shit. When I'm agitated in real life I look like I'm looking for a reason to rumble. My wife gets on me about it from time to time, too. Been that way since school.

I don't know how to say this and I don't care what people think, but I don't care. Death does not bother me except when it's a loved one. I could explain this in detail, but why bother? You guys think I, as a middle class person, couldn't have grown up in a bad neighborhood that my parents broke their backs to get us out of. Whatever.

I don't pretend to be any internet bad ass. The only one on this board that I've ever had this kind of run in with is you. Now, you can say whatever you like, but my last post was to show you just how ridiculous this whole thing really is.

We can chose to shake hands, make our apologies to one another and walk away having learned a little bit about each other, or we can continue this most ridiculous and absurd display of lunacy. The choice is yours.

I'm down with that. I apologize for the pasty faced thing and fish gutting thing. I just wanted to do my own version of "knocking heads off", lol. I've never actually killed someone, though I sure as hell have a harder real life edge than Bronzeage thinks.

You're a hell of a big man, dude. Bigger than the rest of these jerkoffs.

 

[PannieMonster]

So no successful middle class person has spent their childhood in the hood, where survival of the fittest was the norm?

Rly?

I seek ease and comfort for my kids, but I come from a place where very few of my schoolmates are alive today.

(edited to snip out the hostility)


Or maybe it is what really happened and I don't care what it sounds like to anyone.


Exactly. My point was, if liberals said what these VETS had said, we'd be accused of HATING AMERICA.

I do this kind of switcheroo all the time.


No, I'm not going to drive across Texas to come after you. For one reason. I did it once and the other dude showed up. Ok, 2 reasons. Because you at least can show some hint of reason.

You've gone 10,000 times further as a man than Ulaven Demorte, Ishmael or all the other big bad talkers with this paragraph alone. Take that for what it is.


News Flash: I'm nice when people are nice to me, but I do not ever tolerate anyone's shit. When I'm agitated in real life I look like I'm looking for a reason to rumble. My wife gets on me about it from time to time, too. Been that way since school.

I don't know how to say this and I don't care what people think, but I don't care. Death does not bother me except when it's a loved one. I could explain this in detail, but why bother? You guys think I, as a middle class person, couldn't have grown up in a bad neighborhood that my parents broke their backs to get us out of. Whatever.




I'm down with that. I apologize for the pasty faced thing and fish gutting thing. I just wanted to do my own version of "knocking heads off", lol. I've never actually killed someone, though I sure as hell have a harder real life edge than Bronzeage thinks.

You're a hell of a big man, dude. Bigger than the rest of these jerkoffs.

Let me apologize to you first for the misunderstanding of your post and secondly for the racial slur. Let us put this incident behind us and move forward, never to bring this up again. We have made our apologies and as far as I am concerned the issue is dead.

We may not be friends, but I'm not your enemy either. We may not agree on everything, but we can agree to disagree without our disagreements becoming a hate fest. I think we are both reasonable men.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Let me apologize to you first for the misunderstanding of your post and secondly for the racial slur. Let us put this incident behind us and move forward, never to bring this up again. We have made our apologies and as far as I am concerned the issue is dead.

We may not be friends, but I'm not your enemy either. We may not agree on everything, but we can agree to disagree without our disagreements becoming a hate fest. I think we are both reasonable men.

Aymen to that.

Anyways, those vets actually really came off as balanced, they weren't liking what Bush is doing, but they know it's not a super cut and dry issue in war time. Their simultaneously unsure and unsupportive remarks are the kind of thing I expect to hear from seasoned troops who've been through the brush fire fights in the Cold War and WW-II. Those are certainly not the things that the Pedophilia and Apple Pie for Gawd's Sake party wants war vets to say.

 

[PannieMonster]

Aymen to that.

Anyways, those vets actually really came off as balanced, they weren't liking what Bush is doing, but they know it's not a super cut and dry issue in war time. Their simultaneously unsure and unsupportive remarks are the kind of thing I expect to hear from seasoned troops who've been through the brush fire fights in the Cold War and WW-II. Those are certainly not the things that the Pedophilia and Apple Pie for Gawd's Sake party wants war vets to say.

Maybe, but it's hard to blame a political party on Abu Ghraib. I think in this instance, we had a whole bunch of soldiers who were acting inappropriately. These soldiers will be held accountable and punishable under the UCMJ which carries a harsher sentence. Unfortunately, the top guy in charge will probably get off scott free. This reminds me of the Mi Lai massacre when Lt. Calley was the one punished (low man on the totem pole).


I certainly don't think anyone is being tortured at Guantanamo. The way I see it, if you have an "enemy combatant", detaining them means they aren't going to be shooting at you later on and detaining them is better than killing them. If we can't appropriately provide them with their Holy Book, prayer mats, etc. Well excuse me, it isn't the Hilton, shit happens. I'm not sensitive enough to think we need to do that. Feed them, clothe them, provide medical attention is really all that any soldier can expect when in enemy hands.

I will admit, I haven't seen a whole lot of news on what goes on at Guantanamo, so there may be something going on that I haven't heard about.
If you have links to sites claiming that there is torture going on there, please provide them.

In combat, adrenaline runs high. Most of the time, there is some form of civility even though prisoners do get roughed up. Outright abuse? Well, I never saw anyone doing that when I was in Nam.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Maybe, but it's hard to blame a political party on Abu Ghraib. I think in this instance, we had a whole bunch of soldiers who were acting inappropriately. These soldiers will be held accountable and punishable under the UCMJ which carries a harsher sentence. Unfortunately, the top guy in charge will probably get off scott free. This reminds me of the Mi Lai massacre when Lt. Calley was the one punished (low man on the totem pole).

Exactly. The civilians who gave the orders at Abu Ghraib were let off the hook; then Bush made new laws to excuse them in the future, IIRC.

I certainly don't think anyone is being tortured at Guantanamo.

The bigger thing for me is, I don't know if any of those people at Guantanamo actually deserve to be there.

What proof do we have that any of them are in any way acting against America? It reminds me strongly of The Count of Monte Cristo, minus the treasure. Or the Salem witch hunts.

All this secrecy has a potential devastating effect on civil liberties. Imagine a Government that can use 'secrecy' willy nilly like this to arrest people and keep them under lock and key. Even the 'evidence' such a regime comes up with, is suspect. Do you know how easy it is to photoshop you into a crime scene?

The way I see it, if you have an "enemy combatant", detaining them means they aren't going to be shooting at you later on and detaining them is better than killing them. If we can't appropriately provide them with their Holy Book, prayer mats, etc. Well excuse me, it isn't the Hilton, shit happens. I'm not sensitive enough to think we need to do that. Feed them, clothe them, provide medical attention is really all that any soldier can expect when in enemy hands.

But first we have to trust that they really are enemy combatants. Looking at the Bush administration, I have a good idea who the real enemy combatants are and it looks to me that they're holed up in DC.

I will admit, I haven't seen a whole lot of news on what goes on at Guantanamo, so there may be something going on that I haven't heard about.
If you have links to sites claiming that there is torture going on there, please provide them.

I'd rather see the proof that these people really are enemy combatants.

In combat, adrenaline runs high. Most of the time, there is some form of civility even though prisoners do get roughed up. Outright abuse? Well, I never saw anyone doing that when I was in Nam.

The problem is, Bush has changed the rules. How do we know this 'waterboarding' and butt pyramid BS is rare?

We don't.

There's way too much secrecy going on.

Right wingers like to chant, "if you have nothing to hide, why do you need secrecy?" Well hell, that goes two ways. The Soviet Union was good at using "secrecy" to hide their Government's activities. And now we're going in the same direction.

We're coming up to the case-in-point/of-no-return where we're empowering a nuclear superpower with the powers to do more damage to America than the threats that their "secret operations" are supposedly concocted to eliminate.

 

[Ham Murabi]

We're coming up to the case-in-point/of-no-return where we're empowering a nuclear superpower with the powers to do more damage to America than the threats that their "secret operations" are supposedly concocted to eliminate.

Buy a Thesaurus.

 

[PannieMonster]

Here in lies the problem: Nobody in D.C. (Reps or Dems) is/was over in Afgahnistan during the combat operations. I believe most of the detainees in Gitmo are from Afgahnistan. These detainees were captured by U.S. Military personnel. I have to believe that they had some reason to detain these prisoners or they wouldn't have sent them to Gitmo. We are talking a few hundred people here. If the military had just detained everybody they captured, neither Gitmo nor the whole of Cuba, would have been big enough to hold them all.

Secondly, during WW2 and Korea, it was pretty easy to determine who the enemy was since "most" of the time on the battlefield anyway, everyone was wearing a uniform of some type.

In Vietnam, it wasn't quite that easy. You had NVA regulars and you had the Viet Cong. NVA regulars wore uniforms and you knew that was the enemy. Viet Cong, you didn't know if they were your enemy or not until they started shooting at you. It was easy to get shot at, look over in the direction that the shots were fired from, only to see a crowd of people all acting innocent (talking Saigon here). The VC took a shot, hid his weapon and blended in with the crowd.

Pretty much the same thing goes on in Iraq and Afgahnistan. How do you tell who is who? You can't. What you can do is search and seizure missions. If you burst into someone's house, find an AK-47, chances are you found the guy that just shot your buddy the day before and chances are, he's not an innocent bystander.

Let me give you another analogy. Suppose you were a cop and you were patrolling a big outdoor event in your city. Suddenly you hear gun shots and a bullet whizzing over the top of your head. You don't know who fired the shot, but you know the direction that it probably came from. So now you and a few of your fellow police officers head in that direction. What you find is a group of people standing around acting innocent. So you round them up, pat them down and you find 3 guys with weapons. Investigating further, you find that when you check the IDs of the rest of the group, there are 2 more with criminal records. What do you do? You hall all 5 guys in and see if you can determine who took the shots. You don't arrest everyone in the group.

So getting back to Afgahnistan...
You are on patrol looking for taliban fighters. Suddenly shots ring out and you turn to see one of your buddies fall. He's dead. So you look for cover, try to determine where the shots came from. If the shooter is still shooting at you, you return fire, if not, you scan the area to see if you can spot who fired the shot. One of your comrades tells you that the shot came from a house at the end of the street. So your squad moves in, busts open the door and you find 2 men, a woman and 3 kids sitting inside. You do a search of the house and uncover an AK-47 that has been fired recently. What do you do? Well you can probably eliminate the kids as suspects and probably the woman. That leaves you with 2 men. You question the men and neither one fesses up, so you have no choice, you have to take them both in. One U.S. soldier killed, 2 Afgahns captured and detained.

You can't try them. You have no charges in which to try them for. You were in a combat zone. You invaded their country. Best you can do is detain them as Prisoners of War. In Vietnam, VC were taken as prisoners of war all the time. This is not any different. The people rounded up aren't crimnals, they aren't soldiers, but you can bet your ass that they will do you and your men harm if given the chance.

What I am saying here is (excuse the expression), not everything is black and white in a combat zone. There are and always has been some gray areas. Do you or don't you? Do you let them go to kill you another day or do you detain them so they can't harm you and your men?

Just a side note. Vietnam was lost by politicians not soldiers. Do we really want Iraq and Afgahnistan lost by the same political idiots whose only goal is to get re-elected?
I can promise you, if the American people were to say, "Let's stay in the war, we are all for it", instead of being against the war, both Democrats and Republicans would be talking about sending more troops over there. Let's not kid ourselves here, there are two sides to every story, whether you are for or against one side or the other. I may not agree with detaining people and bringing them half way around the world, but I can certainly understand why it was done.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Here in lies the problem: Nobody in D.C. (Reps or Dems) is/was over in Afgahnistan during the combat operations. I believe most of the detainees in Gitmo are from Afgahnistan. These detainees were captured by U.S. Military personnel. I have to believe that they had some reason to detain these prisoners or they wouldn't have sent them to Gitmo. We are talking a few hundred people here. If the military had just detained everybody they captured, neither Gitmo nor the whole of Cuba, would have been big enough to hold them all.

Secondly, during WW2 and Korea, it was pretty easy to determine who the enemy was since "most" of the time on the battlefield anyway, everyone was wearing a uniform of some type.

In Vietnam, it wasn't quite that easy. You had NVA regulars and you had the Viet Cong. NVA regulars wore uniforms and you knew that was the enemy. Viet Cong, you didn't know if they were your enemy or not until they started shooting at you. It was easy to get shot at, look over in the direction that the shots were fired from, only to see a crowd of people all acting innocent (talking Saigon here). The VC took a shot, hid his weapon and blended in with the crowd.

Pretty much the same thing goes on in Iraq and Afgahnistan. How do you tell who is who? You can't. What you can do is search and seizure missions. If you burst into someone's house, find an AK-47, chances are you found the guy that just shot your buddy the day before and chances are, he's not an innocent bystander.

Let me give you another analogy. Suppose you were a cop and you were patrolling a big outdoor event in your city. Suddenly you hear gun shots and a bullet whizzing over the top of your head. You don't know who fired the shot, but you know the direction that it probably came from. So now you and a few of your fellow police officers head in that direction. What you find is a group of people standing around acting innocent. So you round them up, pat them down and you find 3 guys with weapons. Investigating further, you find that when you check the IDs of the rest of the group, there are 2 more with criminal records. What do you do? You hall all 5 guys in and see if you can determine who took the shots. You don't arrest everyone in the group.

So getting back to Afgahnistan...
You are on patrol looking for taliban fighters. Suddenly shots ring out and you turn to see one of your buddies fall. He's dead. So you look for cover, try to determine where the shots came from. If the shooter is still shooting at you, you return fire, if not, you scan the area to see if you can spot who fired the shot. One of your comrades tells you that the shot came from a house at the end of the street. So your squad moves in, busts open the door and you find 2 men, a woman and 3 kids sitting inside. You do a search of the house and uncover an AK-47 that has been fired recently. What do you do? Well you can probably eliminate the kids as suspects and probably the woman. That leaves you with 2 men. You question the men and neither one fesses up, so you have no choice, you have to take them both in. One U.S. soldier killed, 2 Afgahns captured and detained.

You can't try them. You have no charges in which to try them for. You were in a combat zone. You invaded their country. Best you can do is detain them as Prisoners of War. In Vietnam, VC were taken as prisoners of war all the time. This is not any different. The people rounded up aren't crimnals, they aren't soldiers, but you can bet your ass that they will do you and your men harm if given the chance.

What I am saying here is (excuse the expression), not everything is black and white in a combat zone. There are and always has been some gray areas. Do you or don't you? Do you let them go to kill you another day or do you detain them so they can't harm you and your men?

Just a side note. Vietnam was lost by politicians not soldiers. Do we really want Iraq and Afgahnistan lost by the same political idiots whose only goal is to get re-elected?
I can promise you, if the American people were to say, "Let's stay in the war, we are all for it", instead of being against the war, both Democrats and Republicans would be talking about sending more troops over there. Let's not kid ourselves here, there are two sides to every story, whether you are for or against one side or the other. I may not agree with detaining people and bringing them half way around the world, but I can certainly understand why it was done.

To answer your scenarios above,
a) I do not trust that the people captured actually had any weapons. They could have just not been liked
b) I've listened to police radio channels and have heard for myself cops talking about putting "throw down guns" on people they've accidentally shot.

I strongly believe a soldier can be corrupt. And the more power s/he has, the more corrupt they can be.

I cannot possibly express how much I desire to see PROOF of cause for detainment. Because I don't want my country to be known for deciding that some uppity foreign (choose your demographic) are annoying, ergo let's nail a few bothersome people and accuse them of murder or of being enemy combatants. That will do America far more harm than dead troops: we lose good will and we make more enemies, until one day we will have to nuke the world to make them go away.

My strategy? More stringent rules for detainment, immediate evidence gathering, and if no proof can be found, let them go, unarmed. Meanwhile, generate good will in the region and let them help us. We had that going for us in Afghanistan. We utterly destroyed this good will in Iraq. Good will was what expanded Western capitalist democracies and brought down the USSR via isolation.

Oh and I also posted a story a while back about how the military was going after kidnapping wives and kids to force confessions from detainees. We left the door open, and all that.

On a side note, I would cautiously aid the Fatah in Palestine. Keep an eye in the back of my head and all that.

 

[torchthebitch]

Holy fuck! Rational debate!