Our Gallant Saudi Allies

[Queersetti]

Brian Whitaker
Saturday April 9, 2005
The Guardian

Dozens of Saudi men caught dancing and "behaving like women" at a party have been sentenced to a total of 14,200 lashes, after a trial held behind closed doors and without defence lawyers.

The men were also given jail sentences of up to two years.

They were arrested last month when the police in Jeddah raided a party which was described by a Saudi newspaper as a "gay wedding".

Article continues
"Prosecuting and imprisoning people for homosexual conduct are flagrant human rights violations," Scott Long, of the US organisation Human Rights Watch said. "Subjecting the victims to floggings is torture, pure and simple."

HRW said it had established that 31 of the men received prison sentences of six months to one year, plus 200 lashes each. Four were jailed for two years with 2,000 lashes.

A further 70 men were released after the raid but summoned to a police station on April 3, where they were told they had been sentenced to one year's imprisonment.

HRW said that according to a friend of one of the arrested men the gathering was a birthday party.

But the Saudi newspaper al-Wifaq, which has connections with the interior ministry, carried a report on March 16, six days after the arrests, saying the men were "dancing and behaving like women".

 

[Raimondin]

There is so much hypocrisy within the Islamic cultures regarding homosexuality considering the fact that they even once entertained "boy brothels" in their ancient past. Women were not the only sex inside their harems. Famed British scholar and author Sir Richard Burton(No, not the actor) is the first person to expose and write extensively regarding the sexual habits and proclivities of the Arabic cultures in his translation of The Arabian Nights. In his "Terminal Essay" included in this translation he described in detail this behavior amongst the Islamic cultures, the section titled "Pedastery." These would include the Arabs(Saudis), Persians, and Turks. I've posted below a site regarding this for those interested in further reading. (I know, it's heavy reading and wordy, but very interesting).

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/burton-te.html

 

[mercy's_grace]

Well at least in the States there is lip service paid to tolerance. I trust you were neither shocked nor surprised by this story.

 

[Equinoxe]

There is so much hypocrisy within the Islamic cultures regarding homosexuality considering the fact that they even once entertained "boy brothels" in their ancient past. Women were not the only sex inside their harems. Famed British scholar and author Sir Richard Burton(No, not the actor) is the first person to expose and write extensively regarding the sexual habits and proclivities of the Arabic cultures in his translation of The Arabian Nights. In his "Terminal Essay" included in this translation he described in detail this behavior amongst the Islamic cultures, the section titled "Pedastery." These would include the Arabs(Saudis), Persians, and Turks. I've posted below a site regarding this for those interested in further reading. (I know, it's heavy reading and wordy, but very interesting).

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/burton-te.html

It's quite interesting, Sir Richard Burton usually is (he was after all the first non-Muslim Westerner to visit Mecca), but it's rather derogatory, though that's to be expected from Victorian literature on the subject. Like his contemporaries, he always seemed to condemn things and yet be just a bit too interested in them.

Personally, I enjoyed the little bit where he discusses the breast shape of Near Eastern women, I found it amusing.

 

[Raimondin]

It's quite interesting, Sir Richard Burton usually is (he was after all the first non-Muslim Westerner to visit Mecca), but it's rather derogatory, though that's to be expected from Victorian literature on the subject. Like his contemporaries, he always seemed to condemn things and yet be just a bit too interested in them.

Personally, I enjoyed the little bit where he discusses the breast shape of Near Eastern women, I found it amusing.

Yes, it seems he didn't miss a thing. My question is what his own sexuality was, considering it was during the Victorian era with all it's censor and condemnatin of anything "sexual", (at least in a public sense). Funny, though, because some of the most erotic literature (to date) came from that era. Some scholars today even consider his translation of the Arabin Nights more of a work of erotica rather than an anthropological study.

 

[Equinoxe]

Yes, it seems he didn't miss a thing. My question is what his own sexuality was, considering it was during the Victorian era with all it's censor and condemnatin of anything "sexual", (at least in a public sense). Funny, though, because some of the most erotic literature (to date) came from that era. Some scholars today even consider his translation of the Arabin Nights more of a work of erotica rather than an anthropological study.

This is true, all of these sorts of publications were for "private distribution only," and it's a bit intriguing to consider the interests of individuals involved at the time.

I've read a translation of Nefwazi's The Perfumed Garden by Burton, the introduction to which is kind of amusing to me. He mentions certain sexual acts as being "unnatural" and thought of by many as "depraved" and seems disappointed that the book doesn't talk about them (including I believe both lesbian sex and gay male sex).

 

[Raimondin]

I've read a translation of Nefwazi's The Perfumed Garden by Burton, the introduction to which is kind of amusing to me. He mentions certain sexual acts as being "unnatural" and thought of by many as "depraved" and seems disappointed that the book doesn't talk about them (including I believe both lesbian sex and gay male sex).

Hmm. I haven't read that one. Sounds very intriguing. I imagine that would have been Burton's next interest, Lesbian sexuality. What I understand is that his wife burned most (if not all) of his notes, private journals, and other works in the finishing stages after his death. How unfortunate. What could have been in those papers?

 

[John Doe]

Okay there is a lot of confusing and just plain contradictory stuff here.

First, the are sentenced to flogging for behaving like women, then a newspaper calls it a gay wedding. Then some guy says it's not right to be persucted for homosexual behavior.

Am I the only person here who realizes many homosexual men aren't effeminate and that being effeminate rarely coincides with being gay?

That and the paper said it was a gay wedding, not the court.

 

[Equinoxe]

Hmm. I haven't read that one. Sounds very intriguing. I imagine that would have been Burton's next interest, Lesbian sexuality. What I understand is that his wife burned most (if not all) of his notes, private journals, and other works in the finishing stages after his death. How unfortunate. What could have been in those papers?

I suppose we shall never know what else he had to say on these issues, which is quite unfortunate.

Okay there is a lot of confusing and just plain contradictory stuff here.

First, the are sentenced to flogging for behaving like women, then a newspaper calls it a gay wedding. Then some guy says it's not right to be persucted for homosexual behavior.

Am I the only person here who realizes many homosexual men aren't effeminate and that being effeminate rarely coincides with being gay?

That and the paper said it was a gay wedding, not the court.

Most people aren't very good at distinguishing the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity (which are unrelated). Homosexuality and bisexuality used to be considered gender identity disorders and still are by some very conservative folk. Presumably these very conservative folk include Saudi Arabian newspapers.

 

[robbie_boy1]

Our Gallant Saudi Allies
is an oxi-moron Gallant NOT
Alliess NOT


what part of this don't we understand?

 

[Raimondin]

Am I the only person here who realizes many homosexual men aren't effeminate and that being effeminate rarely coincides with being gay?

That and the paper said it was a gay wedding, not the court.

I agree Stupon. That's why I stated in my first post above the hypocrisy and confusion within this culture. Now I'm not culture bashing here, please. Although, I would not want to live there in these times.

 

[John Doe]

I agree Stupon. That's why I stated in my first post above the hypocrisy and confusion within this culture. Now I'm not culture bashing here, please. Although, I would not want to live there in these times.

No, I'm not talking about thier culture in general. I'm talking about the media twisting the facts and the words of others for sensationalistic purposes, which believe it or not happens quite a lot here too.

But yeah, of course it's confused and hypocritical. It's a theocracy. Any successful and longlasting one is bound to be on one sexual extreme or the other, much like other aspects of cultures. Either Apollonian or Dionysian. And I will bet dollars to donuts that Saudi Arabia is not Dionysian in sexuality.

But we're one to talk. We as Americans have puritanical morals diametrically opposed with lecherous desires.

 

[Netzach]

...we may not be where we want to get to, however I have not been imprisoned for dancing like a man and getting blown recently.

But what's a little human rights between oil friends?

 

[John Doe]

...we may not be where we want to get to, however I have not been imprisoned for dancing like a man and getting blown recently.

But what's a little human rights between oil friends?

Well your comparison is not exactly fair as you are a woman.

In any case, our partnership, allied status or friendship, whatever you wish to call it will serve to influence them in more Western directions, much as our trade with China has already affected them.

Oh and not everything is about oil, even international politics.

 

[John Doe]

Most people aren't very good at distinguishing the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity (which are unrelated). Homosexuality and bisexuality used to be considered gender identity disorders and still are by some very conservative folk. Presumably these very conservative folk include Saudi Arabian newspapers.

And most people aren't very good at distinguishing between citizens and government, especially Americans. Oddly enough, other countries are different from ours.