On Death - and forgiving

neonlyte

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She was schizophrenic. Not violent; not sufficient to warrant hospitalisation, except when she screwed with her medication. Really just unpleasant, turning in an instant from amenable to thoroughly nasty, foul-mouthed, abusive, and accusing. Yet, to look at her, it was difficult to see the flaws illness caused. She had the appearance of a kindly, rotund elderly lady. At least, this is how I remember her; I haven’t seen her for several years, by my choice. During the last two years she has been pretty much bed-ridden with complications caused by diabetes.

My brother-in-law used to carry a photocopy of a letter, signed by the local police commander, confirming her condition. It was an essential component of his daily life, he used it to diffuse the many difficult situations he encountered when she would steal from shops, accuse friends and strangers of trying to kill her, and approach policemen with lurid tales of her husband assaulting her, or my wife or her sisters stealing her jewellery or abusing her. Some of the tales she told to complete strangers of sexual abuse would make readers of Lit. blush, we have lost count of the number of times my brother-in-law has been ‘arrested’ for physical or sexual abuse, though thankfully not in recent years, she actually became a legend in the part of the country where she lived.

She died eleven days ago, neither myself, nor my wife went to the funeral. I was in UK at the time, my wife in Ireland, we couldn’t have gotten there in time even if we’d been inclined to witness the funeral. We have both spent three days with my brother-in-law this week. Visiting what used to be their home for the first time since they moved there twelve years ago. Walking the town with him was an eye-opening experience. He has many friends; he is the type of person who makes friends instantly. All the people we met offered commiseration, then, they gave thanks that his wife had died first. We heard tales of her misdeeds from everyone, the abuse she poured on people who tried to help her, harrowing tales of night-time screaming – cries of ‘murder’.

Their apartment was a squalid mess. We spent two days restoring some order to the place, arranging for a cleaner to assist him in maintaining cleanliness, packing her clothes, ordering new mattresses – she was incontinent in recent years and her husband, a seventy-two year heart attack sufferer, was unable to keep up with the chores and the cleaning. He’d touched nothing since she died. He didn’t want anything touching until we spoke long into the night and made him understand he needed to recover his life.

The depth of his feelings for the woman who’d tormented his life for fifteen years was truly astonishing, and his attitude has made me look for something beyond her passing, to see her life had value, at least to him, though what he treasured was a memory encapsulated in photographs of a holiday they took in Porto Rico the year before her illness took hold. They were living in the USA at the time; he proudly showed me his citizenship certificate and his USA passport. And finally, we tore into shreds the half dozen copies of the letter attesting to her schizophrenia he carried in the jackets of each of his suits.

The whole business has left me numb. The ill feeling between her and us stems from before she became diagnosed as ill. When my wife’s parents became seriously ill (her mother was 48 when my wife was born) we uprooted, left a home and a business and moved to another country to nurse them. Over a five-year period, we buried my in-laws, two aunts, an uncle, and a cousin. We had to survive in a country neither of us had ever worked in, that was in political and economic upheaval – it was not long after the revolution – and raise our own daughter who was barely a year old when we moved. Not once during that period did our sister-in-law visit, and at the end, she accused my wife of failing to look after the family in order to ‘steal the family property’. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you’ve ever nursed an elderly parent, you will understand when I tell you of the mixture of humiliation and love involved in cleaning a person too ill or too feeble to attend to their own hygiene. I remember the stoicism of my father-in-law as I cleaned him in the shower twenty years ago as if it were yesterday. He would stand erect as if posing for a 1920’s photograph, staring straight ahead trying to maintain what dignity he could muster knowing there was no other choice. During all those times, he only ever looked at me once; he had tears in his eyes.

How do I close this chapter? Do I forgive in death what I couldn’t forgive in life?
 
neonlyte said:
How do I close this chapter? Do I forgive in death what I couldn’t forgive in life?

Oh, Will. :(

I'm so sorry for the sorts of things you and your family have had to endure.

I think you have to find some forgiveness for her. Not for her - she's past caring one way or another - but for yourself, and your own peace of mind.

It's difficult, I know, but be kind to yourself, and forgive what she probably couldn't help.

:rose:
 
:rose:

Hang onto the good, even if far overshadowed by the bad. Tear the bad into tiny pieces, just as you did the letter copies. Scatter it to the winds. Breathe.

:heart:
 
I'm sorry you and your family have this pain to deal with and have had for so many years. It can just leave you exhausted. :rose:

When my father died 7 years ago, he left a huge mess. It took me years, but I finally had to just let it go. There was no way to change the past and it's the living that punish themselves for the sins or shortcomings of others. I had to forgive and try to forget for my own well-being.
 
neonlyte said:
She was schizophrenic. Not violent; not sufficient to warrant hospitalisation, except when she screwed with her medication. Really just unpleasant, turning in an instant from amenable to thoroughly nasty, foul-mouthed, abusive, and accusing. Yet, to look at her, it was difficult to see the flaws illness caused. She had the appearance of a kindly, rotund elderly lady. At least, this is how I remember her; I haven’t seen her for several years, by my choice. During the last two years she has been pretty much bed-ridden with complications caused by diabetes.

My brother-in-law used to carry a photocopy of a letter, signed by the local police commander, confirming her condition. It was an essential component of his daily life, he used it to diffuse the many difficult situations he encountered when she would steal from shops, accuse friends and strangers of trying to kill her, and approach policemen with lurid tales of her husband assaulting her, or my wife or her sisters stealing her jewellery or abusing her. Some of the tales she told to complete strangers of sexual abuse would make readers of Lit. blush, we have lost count of the number of times my brother-in-law has been ‘arrested’ for physical or sexual abuse, though thankfully not in recent years, she actually became a legend in the part of the country where she lived.

She died eleven days ago, neither myself, nor my wife went to the funeral. I was in UK at the time, my wife in Ireland, we couldn’t have gotten there in time even if we’d been inclined to witness the funeral. We have both spent three days with my brother-in-law this week. Visiting what used to be their home for the first time since they moved there twelve years ago. Walking the town with him was an eye-opening experience. He has many friends; he is the type of person who makes friends instantly. All the people we met offered commiseration, then, they gave thanks that his wife had died first. We heard tales of her misdeeds from everyone, the abuse she poured on people who tried to help her, harrowing tales of night-time screaming – cries of ‘murder’.

Their apartment was a squalid mess. We spent two days restoring some order to the place, arranging for a cleaner to assist him in maintaining cleanliness, packing her clothes, ordering new mattresses – she was incontinent in recent years and her husband, a seventy-two year heart attack sufferer, was unable to keep up with the chores and the cleaning. He’d touched nothing since she died. He didn’t want anything touching until we spoke long into the night and made him understand he needed to recover his life.

The depth of his feelings for the woman who’d tormented his life for fifteen years was truly astonishing, and his attitude has made me look for something beyond her passing, to see her life had value, at least to him, though what he treasured was a memory encapsulated in photographs of a holiday they took in Porto Rico the year before her illness took hold. They were living in the USA at the time; he proudly showed me his citizenship certificate and his USA passport. And finally, we tore into shreds the half dozen copies of the letter attesting to her schizophrenia he carried in the jackets of each of his suits.

The whole business has left me numb. The ill feeling between her and us stems from before she became diagnosed as ill. When my wife’s parents became seriously ill (her mother was 48 when my wife was born) we uprooted, left a home and a business and moved to another country to nurse them. Over a five-year period, we buried my in-laws, two aunts, an uncle, and a cousin. We had to survive in a country neither of us had ever worked in, that was in political and economic upheaval – it was not long after the revolution – and raise our own daughter who was barely a year old when we moved. Not once during that period did our sister-in-law visit, and at the end, she accused my wife of failing to look after the family in order to ‘steal the family property’. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you’ve ever nursed an elderly parent, you will understand when I tell you of the mixture of humiliation and love involved in cleaning a person too ill or too feeble to attend to their own hygiene. I remember the stoicism of my father-in-law as I cleaned him in the shower twenty years ago as if it were yesterday. He would stand erect as if posing for a 1920’s photograph, staring straight ahead trying to maintain what dignity he could muster knowing there was no other choice. During all those times, he only ever looked at me once; he had tears in his eyes.

How do I close this chapter? Do I forgive in death what I couldn’t forgive in life?

I feel for you Will... and I know you'll do the right thing... you need to move on mate, difficult though it will be you have to stop hating her now she's gone... What you have to remember is that she's gone to a better place for all concerned, herself included by the sound of it... Whether you'll ever forgive her I don't know, but you have to try to at least move on and put this behind you now...

I can't really comment too much not knowing the full facts, but if she was genuinely ill with a mental disorder, what you have to remember is that it wasn't really her doing either... Not by choice anyway
 
Thank you, all of you, for your support.

What I'm struggling with is where to begin. The mechanics of dealing with the paperwork, cleaners, setting up a network to keep good eye on my brother-in-law are easily dealt with, and I can see the need to let go, put it in the past... When we visited my brother-in-law in December, he was frail, he had to hold onto my wife's arm to walk, and now, despite his grief, he's almost spritely! A huge burden has been lifted from him which is a joy to see, and at the same time, I realise how much more he would have enjoyed his retirement if he'd not had all this to contend with. I hope and pray he has a few good years. He deserves it.

As Pop54 says - she was ill and really not responsible for the suffering brought to those around her, I never really knew her before she was ill, so I don't have any good memories of her and I guess that is why it is difficult to move beyond the recent past.

Letting go is easier said than done, we'll put our effort into supporting my bother-in-law, getting him through the next few months will help ease all of our sorrow.
 
I understand, as best as I can, what you're going through and my love is with you and your wife and your brother in law, too. I've had to forgive someone after they died, and it's a hard hard thing, but a necessary one for you. It doesn't help her at all, of course, so forgiving really is about accepting that you can't change it and letting it go.
My ex had a rough time with a similar situation as well. His mom was bipolar and impossible to deal with. He fought with her just days before she died, and so in her dying, he had to both forgive her for the life she led (and which ultimately led to her death) and to forgive himself for having fought with her. There was a long time of guilt and anger for him, and it ate him up. That's no way to live, so even though it's hard, it's the best thing you can do for yourself to forgive and to try to find some kind memory of her to keep for the future.
 
neonlyte said:
How do I close this chapter? Do I forgive in death what I couldn’t forgive in life?

Yes. And do what imp suggested. Scatter the pieces to the winds.

Blessed peace to you and yours, Will.

:rose:
 
:rose:

I think I disagree with Imp somewhat, regarding 'tear the bad in little pieces' and forget it, essentially. I agree this should be done with any emotional component of that, to the greatest extent possible. But cognitively, you know what you know. To the extent her nastiness was the result of genuine mental illness, she was to be pitied. To the extent it was a product of malice and bad choices, it's an object lesson of what to avoid. And one should not dismiss the reality that in many cases malice is exactly what motivates such a person, and there's just nothing good to be said about him or her.


(Lord, I hope I have the guts, wits and ability to check out on my own before my life becomes nothing but a meaningless burden to myself and others.)
 
Brother, you are a writer. You need to write it out. Some you may share, some you may not. But in writing you may be able to exorcise those demons. Some of the things you might write would be:

1. A letter to her telling her what a complete shit she is. Not necessarily something to share.

2. Write something that talks about about your brother-in-laws strength and the depth of the caring he must have felt to maintain.

3. Put yourself in her shoes and write about being trapped in a mind that is tragically marred. The actions you take and how deep down inside there is a core that feels that you have done wrong.

4. Or do none of these things and find something totally different to write about that can capture you attention and help you move on.
 
Taking a different tack altogether: Why do you feel the need to forgive now? The person is no longer around to care how you feel about them. Some things can't ever be forgiven.
I know you feel guilty that you couldn't forgive them while alive. Perhaps you just need to come to an acceptance of that.

I could never forgive an older bipolar paedophilic brother. But I've come to accept that I don't HAVE to forgive him. His behaviour WAS unacceptable and he damaged people. I no longer hate him. I accept what he was, I make no excuses for him and I forgive none of it.
 
Thank you again for the advice and support.

I suspect some of the emotional content will find its way into my writing, as The Fool says, it is a medium for expression, not all of it need be for public viewing. I guess that is partly why I posted this news, it is a release of sorts.

I'm not sure 'guilt' - as some have mentioned - is part of the emotion. If one concentrates on the perspective of 'illness' then guilt isn't a component in the emotion. We certainly didn't ignore my brother-in-law during this period, visiting as often as we were able, given we were in different countries for much of the time, and in regular communication by phone. Interceeding in his choice might have done more harm than good.

I've spoken with him this morning, he's quite upbeat, thinking of coming to the USA with us next month, just for a few days, to visit his old friends in Newark. Meanwhile, we are planning to visit him again later this week to help with the 'paperwork' and make sure the arrangements we set in train are being met.

Thanks again.
 
Nothing useful to say, but if knowing I'm thinking of you is any help then you are in my thoughts
x
V
 
Neon, in another thread I spoke about grief and the process of anger as part of it. It seems to me that anger has to have a reason other than just loss, not always the same reason but resulting in anger anyway. Two of the reasons, I think are both derived from selfish motives; the obvious one being that you have been left alone.

The other, which may or may not apply here, is that of relief. Relief that they are no longer there to cause whatever they seemingly cause and the very shameful one that it's not you that's dead.
These two (amongst others) can lead to anger about your own feelings which has a rather obvious point of blame: the deceased.
And the only person that forgiveness affects, in all cases, betrayal, injury, death, loss, the only person that forgiveness affects is yourself.
It has side effects of civility, calm or positiveness, but the first effect is on yourself as a person. It can make you whole again (I've had reason to read up on it lately) or occasionally it can destroy you.

To forgive is to make peace with yourself. To forget is also a method of making yourself whole again. I'm not saying that it is better to forgive, what I am saying is that it is better to be yourself than be what someone else makes you.

This sounds a little bit at odds with the advice i was thrusting on someone in another thread

It built you and remade you. It will always be a part of you. Remember this and let the grief have its way, then when you emerge from that, you'll still have the love which made you as you are and be grateful you had it at all.

But it's still applicable to things that make you angry or resentful, hurt or dismayed. These feelings are a part of you and will forever be a part of you forgiveness or acceptance are the ways in which we become our own person, selfmade and individual.

The question that we all face is "do we want to be defined by what others do to us or by what we do ourselves?"
 
neonlyte said:
She was schizophrenic. Not violent; not sufficient to warrant hospitalisation, except when she screwed with her medication. Really just unpleasant, turning in an instant from amenable to thoroughly nasty, foul-mouthed, abusive, and accusing. Yet, to look at her, it was difficult to see the flaws illness caused. She had the appearance of a kindly, rotund elderly lady. At least, this is how I remember her; I haven’t seen her for several years, by my choice. During the last two years she has been pretty much bed-ridden with complications caused by diabetes.

My brother-in-law used to carry a photocopy of a letter, signed by the local police commander, confirming her condition. It was an essential component of his daily life, he used it to diffuse the many difficult situations he encountered when she would steal from shops, accuse friends and strangers of trying to kill her, and approach policemen with lurid tales of her husband assaulting her, or my wife or her sisters stealing her jewellery or abusing her. Some of the tales she told to complete strangers of sexual abuse would make readers of Lit. blush, we have lost count of the number of times my brother-in-law has been ‘arrested’ for physical or sexual abuse, though thankfully not in recent years, she actually became a legend in the part of the country where she lived.

She died eleven days ago, neither myself, nor my wife went to the funeral. I was in UK at the time, my wife in Ireland, we couldn’t have gotten there in time even if we’d been inclined to witness the funeral. We have both spent three days with my brother-in-law this week. Visiting what used to be their home for the first time since they moved there twelve years ago. Walking the town with him was an eye-opening experience. He has many friends; he is the type of person who makes friends instantly. All the people we met offered commiseration, then, they gave thanks that his wife had died first. We heard tales of her misdeeds from everyone, the abuse she poured on people who tried to help her, harrowing tales of night-time screaming – cries of ‘murder’.

Their apartment was a squalid mess. We spent two days restoring some order to the place, arranging for a cleaner to assist him in maintaining cleanliness, packing her clothes, ordering new mattresses – she was incontinent in recent years and her husband, a seventy-two year heart attack sufferer, was unable to keep up with the chores and the cleaning. He’d touched nothing since she died. He didn’t want anything touching until we spoke long into the night and made him understand he needed to recover his life.

The depth of his feelings for the woman who’d tormented his life for fifteen years was truly astonishing, and his attitude has made me look for something beyond her passing, to see her life had value, at least to him, though what he treasured was a memory encapsulated in photographs of a holiday they took in Porto Rico the year before her illness took hold. They were living in the USA at the time; he proudly showed me his citizenship certificate and his USA passport. And finally, we tore into shreds the half dozen copies of the letter attesting to her schizophrenia he carried in the jackets of each of his suits.

The whole business has left me numb. The ill feeling between her and us stems from before she became diagnosed as ill. When my wife’s parents became seriously ill (her mother was 48 when my wife was born) we uprooted, left a home and a business and moved to another country to nurse them. Over a five-year period, we buried my in-laws, two aunts, an uncle, and a cousin. We had to survive in a country neither of us had ever worked in, that was in political and economic upheaval – it was not long after the revolution – and raise our own daughter who was barely a year old when we moved. Not once during that period did our sister-in-law visit, and at the end, she accused my wife of failing to look after the family in order to ‘steal the family property’. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you’ve ever nursed an elderly parent, you will understand when I tell you of the mixture of humiliation and love involved in cleaning a person too ill or too feeble to attend to their own hygiene. I remember the stoicism of my father-in-law as I cleaned him in the shower twenty years ago as if it were yesterday. He would stand erect as if posing for a 1920’s photograph, staring straight ahead trying to maintain what dignity he could muster knowing there was no other choice. During all those times, he only ever looked at me once; he had tears in his eyes.

How do I close this chapter? Do I forgive in death what I couldn’t forgive in life?

I have a similar tale to tell, but won't much at this time, Neon. Schizophrenia is an exceptionally hard disease to deal with and I think most of the time, even before diagnosis (which can go unnoticed for a long time until an "event" occurs) is often chalked up to eccentricity and oddness. How can one forgive one who was not even really aware of their disease, or couldn't help it? Same holds true for those suffering from manic-deppresion or BPD brought on by Post-traumatic distress (seen in child abuse victims).

I haven't had to wipe the ass of an elderly patient, but I did have to do so for my mother who was 49 when she died - I was 31. Boy how proud she was. I won't say more about it unless you ask.

I suppose it is like forgiving people on a daily basis. It depends on you as an understanding person and how much you are willing to understand, tolerate and forgive and none of us are super-human. :) I think it is easier to forgive in death what we cannot forgive in life. I also think we should forgive in life before we have to face that question.

Is forgiveness really so hard?
 
She was schizophrenic. Not violent; not sufficient to warrant hospitalisation, except when she screwed with her medication. Really just unpleasant, turning in an instant from amenable to thoroughly nasty, foul-mouthed, abusive, and accusing.

I can surely empathize with you here. My husband suffers from extreme paranoia, yet steadfastly refuses to receive treatment for it. I know how life can be made a living hell by the presence of mental illness.

:rose:
 
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gauchecritic said:
Neon, in another thread I spoke about grief and the process of anger as part of it. It seems to me that anger has to have a reason other than just loss, not always the same reason but resulting in anger anyway. Two of the reasons, I think are both derived from selfish motives; the obvious one being that you have been left alone.

The other, which may or may not apply here, is that of relief. Relief that they are no longer there to cause whatever they seemingly cause and the very shameful one that it's not you that's dead.
These two (amongst others) can lead to anger about your own feelings which has a rather obvious point of blame: the deceased.
And the only person that forgiveness affects, in all cases, betrayal, injury, death, loss, the only person that forgiveness affects is yourself.
It has side effects of civility, calm or positiveness, but the first effect is on yourself as a person. It can make you whole again (I've had reason to read up on it lately) or occasionally it can destroy you.

To forgive is to make peace with yourself. To forget is also a method of making yourself whole again. I'm not saying that it is better to forgive, what I am saying is that it is better to be yourself than be what someone else makes you.

This sounds a little bit at odds with the advice i was thrusting on someone in another thread



But it's still applicable to things that make you angry or resentful, hurt or dismayed. These feelings are a part of you and will forever be a part of you forgiveness or acceptance are the ways in which we become our own person, selfmade and individual.

The question that we all face is "do we want to be defined by what others do to us or by what we do ourselves?"
Thanks Gauche.

In fact, I have no anger over her death. The anger evaporated years ago, replaced by a sense of resentment over her treatment of my brother-in-law. When we first heard the news of her death, our immediate feeling was of relief, which perhaps wasn't gracious but at the receiving end of the regular phone calls of her misdeeds, and in awareness of the effect of the continual barrage upon my brother-in-laws fragile state of health, her passing seemed 'good news'.

The need to reconcile my feelings toward this woman comes from beginning to understand my b-in-laws devotion to her. Their relationship was strong enough to allow him to carry the burden and grieve at her passing despite the enormous difficulties she presented him with. So in considering 'forgiveness', I'm not driven by anger, or guilt, and certainly not be grief: what renders me less than whole (for the moment) is failing to see the importance of their relationship, and if I'd understood that, maybe my attitude while she was alive could have been different.

In a sense, it is hypocritical to forgive in death what I failed to forgive in life through my perspective blocking the view of their relationship. If I feel a twinge of guilt, that is where it ought lie. It is too late to remedy that, and I don't intend to unload any explanation onto my b-in-law, he has enough to contend with. I also feel, having given this considerable thought during the day, I have little to forgive with regard to her, our positions were cast long years ago, and I'm probably blaming myself unnecessarily for taking the position I took, I'm looking at the point to where the path has arrived and not seeing the route it took to get here.
 
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