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Purple Haze

Literally Stimulated
Joined
Sep 19, 2000
Posts
19,290
Saying No to War

Within days, barring a diplomatic breakthrough, President Bush will decide whether to send American troops into Iraq in the face of United Nations opposition. We believe there is a better option involving long-running, stepped-up weapons inspections. But like everyone else in America, we feel the window closing. If it comes down to a question of yes or no to invasion without broad international support, our answer is no.

Even though Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector, said that Saddam Hussein was not in complete compliance with United Nations orders to disarm, the report of the inspectors on Friday was generally devastating to the American position. They not only argued that progress was being made, they also discounted the idea that Iraq was actively attempting to manufacture nuclear weapons. History shows that inspectors can be misled, and that Mr. Hussein can never be trusted to disarm and stay disarmed on his own accord. But a far larger and more aggressive inspection program, backed by a firm and united Security Council, could keep a permanent lid on Iraq's weapons program.

By adding hundreds of additional inspectors, using the threat of force to give them a free hand and maintaining the option of attacking Iraq if it tries to shake free of a smothering inspection program, the United States could obtain much of what it was originally hoping to achieve. Mr. Hussein would now be likely to accept such an intrusive U.N. operation. Had Mr. Bush managed the showdown with Iraq in a more measured manner, he would now be in a position to rally the U.N. behind that bigger, tougher inspection program, declare victory and take most of the troops home.

Unfortunately, by demanding regime change, Mr. Bush has made it much harder for Washington to embrace this kind of long-term strategy. He has talked himself into a corner where war or an unthinkable American retreat seem to be the only alternatives visible to the administration. Every signal from the White House is that the diplomatic negotiations will be over in days, not weeks. Every signal from the United Nations is that when that day arrives, the United States will not have Security Council sanction to attack.

There are circumstances under which the president would have to act militarily no matter what the Security Council said. If America was attacked, we would have to respond swiftly and fiercely. But despite endless efforts by the Bush administration to connect Iraq to Sept. 11, the evidence simply isn't there. The administration has demonstrated that Iraq had members of Al Qaeda living within its borders, but that same accusation could be lodged against any number of American allies in the region. It is natural to suspect that one of America's enemies might be actively aiding another, but nations are not supposed to launch military invasions based on hunches and fragmentary intelligence.

The second argument the Bush administration cites for invading Iraq is its refusal to obey U.N. orders that it disarm. That's a good reason, but not when the U.N. itself believes disarmament is occurring and the weapons inspections can be made to work. If the United States ignores the Security Council and attacks on its own, the first victim in the conflict will be the United Nations itself. The whole scenario calls to mind that Vietnam-era catch phrase about how we had to destroy a village in order to save it.

President Bush has switched his own rationale for the invasion several times. Right now, the underlying theory seems to be that the United States can transform the Middle East by toppling Saddam Hussein, turning Iraq into a showplace democracy and inspiring the rest of the region to follow suit. That's another fine goal that seems impossible to accomplish outside the context of broad international agreement. The idea that the resolution to all the longstanding, complicated problems of that area begins with a quick military action is both seductive and extremely dangerous. The Bush administration has not been willing to risk any political capital in attempting to resolve the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, but now the president is theorizing that invading Iraq will do the trick.

Given the corner Mr. Bush has painted himself in, withdrawing troops — even if a considerable slice remains behind — would be an admission of failure. He obviously intends to go ahead, and bet on the very good chance that the Iraqi army will fall quickly. The fact that the United Nations might be irreparably weakened would not much bother his conservative political base at home, nor would the outcry abroad. But in the long run, this country needs a strong international body to keep the peace and defuse tension in a dozen different potential crisis points around the world. It needs the support of its allies, particularly embattled states like Pakistan, to fight the war on terror. And it needs to demonstrate by example that there are certain rules that everybody has to follow, one of the most important of which is that you do not invade another country for any but the most compelling of reasons. When the purpose is fuzzy, or based on questionable propositions, it's time to stop and look for other, less extreme means to achieve your goals.

The New York Times
 
I think the times has got it right.

I also think this is going to be a bloodbath the likes of which we haven't seen since Vietnam or Korea.

Bush has not, in my mind proven a connection between Bin Laden and Iraq, and there are other countries out there which are far more worrisome than Iraq.

Iraq may be a threat to its neighbors, but that isn't my worry, they lack the ability to send a missile to the US. Sure they threaten Kuwait, one of our few arab allies (although no formal ally agreement exists between the US and Kuwait). But we pushed them out of Kuwait once, and if it were necessary we could do it again.

My principle concern is this will escalate out of control. Iraq will use its chemical weapons on our troops, we'll try using our largest none nuclear weapons and find they aren't working, then shift to the nuclear option. It has always been a policy of the US to respond to WMD with our own WMD. The problem is, we don't have chemical weapons, or any biological ones, just nukes. And once those come into play, its kiss your ass goodbye time.

I think that just the act of invading Iraq will set off massive terrorist retaliations, both here in the US and in the other western nations.

Unfortunately until such time as GW Bush actually violates a law, you can't impeach him. And with most of the media solidly behind him, I don't see anyway of stopping this. I've done the usual stuff, sent letters to senators and representitives telling them I can no longer support the current administration and will not vote for anyone that does support it. But unfortunately we're not a long memoried people. Its going to take the blood of our sons and daughters before before the US people wake up and realize this isn't the gulf war revisited, its stalingrad revisited.

Mind you, I'm not a dove, I am a hawk, but this time I don't see any valid reason for flexing our muscle.

Bob
 
Bobmi357 said:
The problem is, we don't have chemical weapons, or any biological ones, just nukes.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that we have chemical weapons of our own.

I'm also betting that beating Iraq in a war would be as easy as slapping around a child, that sure doesn't make it right. It makes for great television, though. The TV guys have all their logos and titles already made, they have their own war to win. Who's gonna keep the flag-waving fat-asses glued to their seats when all the cool bombs start dropping? Stay tuned.

Happy St. Patrick's Day everybody, green beer and bullets...
 
You win.

Purple Haze said:
I'd bet dollars to donuts that we have chemical weapons of our own.


So which do ya want the dollars or the donuts.

Of course we have them. Where do ya think Saddam got them in the first place? Rumsfeld was the head of a primary manufaturer of chemical weapons in the 80's. Reagan sent Saddam a few thousand samples to use on the hated Iranians. Never mind that Ollie North was running back and forth between Washington and Tehran selling them weapons(in direct violation of an act of Congress, a felony). Meanwhile Ronnie stayed home and ran the economy into the ground while Edward Teller filled his senile head with visions of big "Death Star" stations orbiting overhead ready to blast any errant missiles that dirt poor countries might lob at us.

Paranoia and Alzheimers. A dangerous, if not expensive, mix.

The problem with chemical weapons is you can't really test them in actual usage scenarios. Nukes you can test underground and get yield figures any number of ways, then extrapolate from the damage at Hiroshima. Conventional weapons are easy to test. Chemical weapons are another story. These are designed to kill people. How do you ethically test such weapons? You can't so you get some two bit dictator invlved ina regional war with another of your enemies to use them, then you send in teams of experts to make BDAs and gather data. What else would Rumsfeld be doing in Baghdad in the early 80's glad handing Saddam?
 
iiitttttttttt'''sssssss tiiiimmeeeeeeee ttooooooo fffffooooollllllllooww theeeeee teaaaaachings ooooooooffffffff Martin Luther King
IIIIIIII hhhhhaaave aaaaaaaaa dreammmmmmmmm:D
 
Sing, goddess, of the anger of Achilleus, son of Peleus, the accursed anger which brought uncounted anguish on the Achaians and hurled down to Hades many mighty souls of heros, making their bodies the prey to dogs and the birds' feasting: and this was the working of Zeus' will. Sing from the time of the first quarrel which divided Atreus' son, the lord of men, and godlike Achilleus.

Such was the burial they gave to Hektor, tamer of horses.
 
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