On Christianity - hopefully a discussion, but, after all, it is the enemy...

[4est_4est_Gump]

In Socialism, Ludwig Elder von Mises posits an interesting, to me, idea about the three religions of the West. First off he states without equivocation that Judaism and Islam are dead religions because, in part, they have structured the believer's role when it comes to their interaction with government. Conversely, Jesus thought, spoke and acted in terms of the end of times which he thought was upon them and thus gave little thought to government, possession, or Capital.

Because he was an end-of-the-world thinker, where government is concerned, Christianity has little to say about them and how they should rule, giving it a flexibility and utilization not present in the other religions which seek to rule government. There are many things that rulers can point to to bolster almost any social or economic position.

Judaism and Islam will not change all that much to be compatible to changing social norms, but we have seen Christianity follow the lead of the Progressive Left as it seeks to redefine all sorts of social norms from a secular point of view.

It would also explain why so many people are continually awaiting the rapture.

For those of you who can, feel free to discuss.

The rest of you haters may spew.

We know who you are...

So, no pretense.

Just spew.

 

[Tryharder62]

Mark12:17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.

I await the rapture because I don't believe this world is my home. "I'm just a passen through."

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Mark12:17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.

I await the rapture because I don't believe this world is my home. "I'm just a passen through."

*chuckle*


When confronted by government and the brutality of man empowered, were there no God, someone would invent one out of necessity if only to render the illusion of hope, even if in the next life.
A_J, the Atheist

 

[CandiCame]

I don't know what Bible he was reading because mine is chock full of Jesus talking about the government. Specifically, the problems with the Roman government and about how even though it was a super shitty form of government, you probably ought not get into a bloody revolution because that's flat out not cool. It's kind of a GIANT part of the story. Because he was eventually arrested. For speaking out against the government. And got the death sentence.

Peter 2:13
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Tho that is kinda in direct opposition to his dad...

Exodus 20:1
And God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation"

So really, the bible says a lot of things. And none of it very clearly.

 

[subdued_passion]

The church has always adapted with the times. It takes a few decades but it gets there eventually. So I can see Christianity sticking around a bit longer.

Pope Francis seems eager to herald in a new order.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/30/pope-francis-meet-cardinals-church-reforms

http://www.policymic.com/articles/6...-constitution-but-he-can-t-rewrite-the-church



I don't think any of the other religions are going to die out any time soon.

 

[subdued_passion]

I don't know what Bible he was reading because mine is chock full of Jesus talking about the government. Specifically, the problems with the Roman government and about how even though it was a super shitty form of government, you probably ought not get into a bloody revolution because that's flat out not cool. It's kind of a GIANT part of the story. Because he was eventually arrested. For speaking out against the government. And got the death sentence.

Peter 2:13
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Tho that is kinda in direct opposition to his dad...

Exodus 20:1
And God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation"

So really, the bible says a lot of things. And none of it very clearly.

Kinda like Nostradamus predictions. A believer will seek and find meaning and a disbeliever will be lost in the ambiguity.
Hey, that's also true of 4rest's posts.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I don't know what Bible he was reading because mine is chock full of Jesus talking about the government. Specifically, the problems with the Roman government and about how even though it was a super shitty form of government, you probably ought not get into a bloody revolution because that's flat out not cool. It's kind of a GIANT part of the story. Because he was eventually arrested. For speaking out against the government. And got the death sentence.

Peter 2:13
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Tho that is kinda in direct opposition to his dad...

Exodus 20:1
And God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation"

So really, the bible says a lot of things. And none of it very clearly.

You are all over the place.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The church has always adapted with the times. It takes a few decades but it gets there eventually. So I can see Christianity sticking around a bit longer.

Pope Francis seems eager to herald in a new order.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/30/pope-francis-meet-cardinals-church-reforms

http://www.policymic.com/articles/6...-constitution-but-he-can-t-rewrite-the-church



I don't think any of the other religions are going to die out any time soon.

Zombies


:nods:

 

[RobDownSouth]

I'm always amused at how AJ and Miles, an athiest and a Jew, respectively, routinely use Christianity as some sort of tool to bludgeon their political opponents. Because Christians are persecuted and stuff....

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Spewtergeist...
__________________
[VOICE=Maxine Waters][TONE=Hushed Whisper] I see demons... [/TONE][TONE=Hysterical]

"I saw pictures of Boehner and Cantor on our screens (at the convention). Don't ever let me see again, in life, those Republicans in our hall, on our screens, talking about anything. These are demons!" [/TONE][/VOICE]
Maxine Waters

 

[RobDownSouth]

You are all over the place.

^^^ unintentional irony is teh best kind.

The lack of self-awareness is both hysterical and frightening.

 

[CandiCame]

You are all over the place.

That's my point. The bible says a LOT of stuff about the government. We should follow it blindly, we should follow it only if it follows god, we shouldn't have one because that leads to making it more important than god, who is uber jealous because he's apparently an insecure lover- but none of that is nothing. It says a lot of stuff- inconsistently, but it is there.

 

[CandiCame]

^^^ unintentional irony is teh best kind.

The lack of self-awareness is both hysterical and frightening.

That was a way funnier response than mine. Disregard mine for this one.

 

[CandiCame]

You know what else is great about that passage from Exodus? The one about how you shouldn't make any carvings about anything religious?

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above... You shall not bow down to them or serve them"

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

That's my point. The bible says a LOT of stuff about the government. We should follow it blindly, we should follow it only if it follows god, we shouldn't have one because that leads to making it more important than god, who is uber jealous because he's apparently an insecure lover- but none of that is nothing. It says a lot of stuff- inconsistently, but it is there.

Yes, but when you quote from the Torah (Old Testament) you are quoting from that posited as dead.

When you quote Peter and Ephesians, you are not quoting Christ, but vicars of the church telling isolated communities, often persecuted, how to survive along side of government, none of which was Christ's concern. He though the Kingdom of Heaven was on hand.

But you also make the point Mises makes, any government can find almost anything if they take the Christ out of Christianity.

 

[CandiCame]

Yes, but when you quote from the Torah (Old Testament) you are quoting from that posited as dead.

When you quote Peter and Ephesians, you are not quoting Christ, but vicars of the church telling isolated communities, often persecuted, how to survive along side of government, none of which was Christ's concern. He though the Kingdom of Heaven was on hand.

But you also make the point Mises makes, any government can find almost anything if they take the Christ out of Christianity.

The quote from Peter was from Jesus, as are many others where he talks about the government. He tells those same, contradictory messages.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience

or in Luke 20:25, which is him talking to this guy who doesn't want to pay unfair taxes
He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”

Even though in Proverbs 24:26 we're told
Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.

 

[CandiCame]

Besides, if Christians wanna use the Old Testiment Levidicus lists to say that I can't enjoy the cock, they can suck it and let me use the same book series to show them they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. You get to wear a poly-cotton blend, I get to suck dick. That's how it works.

You wanna also stop share cropping? Because then we can all starve and none of us can do anything.

READ YOUR OWN FUCKING BOOK, PEOPLE!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Peter 2:13


Greek: Hupotagete (2PAPM) pase anthropine ktisei dia ton kurion; eite basilei os huperechonti, (PAPMSD)
Amplified: Be submissive to every human institution and authority for the sake of the Lord, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
KJV: Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Phillips: Obey every man-made authority for the Lord's sake - whether it is the emperor, as the supreme ruler, (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: Put yourselves in the attitude of submission to, thus giving yourselves to the implicit obedience of, every human regulation for the sake of the Lord, whether to a king as one who is super eminent, (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: Be subject, then, to every human creation, because of the Lord, whether to a king, as the highest,


Again, end of the world. Prepare for the end of days.

As to the premise, this is the reason Christianity thrives.

 

[kbate]

The Torah (old testament???) and Koran are shite and should be disregarded. The New Testament is shite because it was written by people with political goals.

Throw them away and buy a copy of Ayn Rand's "Fountainhead" - which you can place on your altar and worship as sent by the one-true religion: $.

*supplemental religious information can be located in "Atlas Shrugged" and any title by Ludvig vMises.

If you're going to pray, you may as well pray for $.


did LvM cover Dianetics? Can we still send money to Hubbardists or is that under the thumb of the leftist progressives too? I do Buddha on Saturday mornings before getting on an especially rotten nag, is that blaspheme? The horse was expensive and might sell for more than I paid, so LvM should be happy?


Or should we ban Government and get back to rule by (I'd go with the inquisition age version) the priesthood to be certain we have the authority to kill the heretics who brought us to this unchrist-like hell we have today.

 

[CandiCame]

Peter 2:13


Greek: Hupotagete (2PAPM) pase anthropine ktisei dia ton kurion; eite basilei os huperechonti, (PAPMSD)
Amplified: Be submissive to every human institution and authority for the sake of the Lord, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
KJV: Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Phillips: Obey every man-made authority for the Lord's sake - whether it is the emperor, as the supreme ruler, (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: Put yourselves in the attitude of submission to, thus giving yourselves to the implicit obedience of, every human regulation for the sake of the Lord, whether to a king as one who is super eminent, (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: Be subject, then, to every human creation, because of the Lord, whether to a king, as the highest,


Again, end of the world. Prepare for the end of days.

As to the premise, this is the reason Christianity thrives.

None of that is about Armageddon.

 

[CandiCame]

The Torah (old testament???) and Koran are shite and should be disregarded. The New Testament is shite because it was written by people with political goals.

Throw them away and buy a copy of Ayn Rand's "Fountainhead" - which you can place on your altar and worship as sent by the one-true religion: $.

*supplemental religious information can be located in "Atlas Shrugged" and any title by Ludvig vMises.

If you're going to pray, you may as well pray for $.


did LvM cover Dianetics? Can we still send money to Hubbardists or is that under the thumb of the leftist progressives too? I do Buddha on Saturday mornings before getting on an especially rotten nag, is that blaspheme? The horse was expensive and might sell for more than I paid, so LvM should be happy?


Or should we ban Government and get back to rule by (I'd go with the inquisition age version) the priesthood to be certain we have the authority to kill the heretics who brought us to this unchrist-like hell we have today.

Not a huge Ryan fan, but damn do I love Bioshock... so torn...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

None of that is about Armageddon.

That is post-Christ.

I already told you what it is about.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The Torah (old testament???) and Koran are shite and should be disregarded. The New Testament is shite because it was written by people with political goals.

Throw them away and buy a copy of Ayn Rand's "Fountainhead" - which you can place on your altar and worship as sent by the one-true religion: $.

*supplemental religious information can be located in "Atlas Shrugged" and any title by Ludvig vMises.

If you're going to pray, you may as well pray for $.


did LvM cover Dianetics? Can we still send money to Hubbardists or is that under the thumb of the leftist progressives too? I do Buddha on Saturday mornings before getting on an especially rotten nag, is that blaspheme? The horse was expensive and might sell for more than I paid, so LvM should be happy?


Or should we ban Government and get back to rule by (I'd go with the inquisition age version) the priesthood to be certain we have the authority to kill the heretics who brought us to this unchrist-like hell we have today.

Wow.

Unbridled hate; like napalm in the morning...

 

[CandiCame]

That is post-Christ.

I already told you what it is about.

You told me what you thought it was about. I'm just trying to figure out why you think that.

 

[suckonsimon]

I would say the principal reason Christianity thrives is to do with it providing a way into relationship. A profoundly significant relationship between the believer and his or her God whom we discover is loving relationship within God-self, at the heart of everything.

The assurance found in this relationship, and the formation it enables in many people, has a host of positive spin-offs in terms of neighbourliness and kindness and for those who feel called to it, justice in the affairs of communities and nations. That's the impact of Christianity on government.

This aspect of Christianity, experienced in the hearts and lives of millions, is evident in the Gospels and the accounts there of transformative encounters with Jesus. There is a continuum from then to the present, which transcends the institution of the Church.

Well that's my offering. Si.