On Breastfeeding, Rights, and Good Manners

sweetnpetite

Intellectual snob
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Wednesday, August 25, 2004
By Wendy McElroy

On Aug. 7 and 8, over two dozen mothers staged a "nurse-in" at a Maryland Starbucks to protest its breastfeeding policy: namely, nursing mothers must cover up or use the bathroom.

A week later, on Aug. 16, in Illinois, Gov. Rod R. Blagojevich signed the Right to Breastfeed Act, which allows women to breastfeed "in any location, public or private, where the mother is otherwise authorized to be, irrespective of whether the nipple of the mother's breast is uncovered during or incidental to the breastfeeding."

Breastfeeding is becoming a front in the culture war.

At one extreme, breastfeeding advocates claim a civil right to nurse in both public and private locations without a modesty requirement— that is, without requiring the use of an inconspicuous area or concealment of the breast. At the other extreme, critics say breastfeeding constitutes offensive public nudity and should be conducted in private.

"Public" and "private" are key terms. The nearly 40 states that have breastfeeding legislation deal with those terms in widely divergent ways. Some, like California, give women the right to breastfeed "in any location, public or private, except the private home … of another"; the mother may sue if breastfeeding is denied. Others, like Virginia, allow breastfeeding on "property owned, leased or controlled" by the state — that is, public property— but do not legislate private property. And, then, there is Rhode Island, which merely says breastfeeding in public does not violate criminal statutes.

The case for breastfeeding on public property is stronger than on private property. Public venues are not governed by clear ownership rules. Thus, the argument that breastfeeding is natural and healthy may sway whatever process determines that property's use.

In 1999, President Clinton found the argument compelling enough to sign the "Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act" into which Rep. Carolyn Maloney, D-N.Y., had inserted language that legalized breastfeeding on federal property.

By contrast, private property has clear ownership rules; the owner should determine what is acceptable behavior by customers or visitors. That's why there are "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" signs. Control of access comes with ownership and it applies no less to a business than it does to a home.

Some breastfeeding advocates make an end-run around property rights by claiming that nursing is a civil right. For example, H.R. 2790 introduced in 2003 by Rep. Maloney attempts to "amend the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to protect breastfeeding by new mothers." It is currently before the Subcommittee on Employer-Employee Relations.

Private property has been under attack for decades by those who claim that owner who "inappropriately" denies access to his property is violating civil rights. For example, an owner who refuses to serve women customers is said to violate their "right" to non-discrimination.

But no valid civil right entitles anyone to benefit from another person's possessions, from another person's time and labor. No one has a civil right to access someone else's property without the owner's consent. To demand such a "right" is an uncivil act that strips away one of the main protections of a peaceful society: namely, the line dividing what is mine from what is yours.

Nursing mothers have no right of access to a private business that says "no." And even sympathetic owners might find it prudent to object. For example, a restaurateur who operated on the margin might need those customers who would prefer not to dine next to conspicuous breastfeeding. He might need "the family trade" that includes parents who don't want their children to view bare breasts.

The issue of nudity applies to breastfeeding on public property as well. Some states, like Missouri, provide that women have a right to publicly breastfeed "...with as much discretion as possible." The question here is of good manners and common sense, which, like property rights, are also protections that make a peaceful society more probable.

Fortunately, most nursing mothers are not likely to protest reasonable rules that ask them to breastfeed in a discreet area or to cover the breast. In fact, they are likely to welcome the privacy.

Unfortunately, some breastfeeding advocates want society to do more than reasonably accommodate a woman's choice in how, when, and where to feed her baby. They seem to want people to accept and applaud her choice by insisting on her "right" to expose them to it on her terms. Thus La Leche League, one of the largest advocacy organizations, rejects Missouri's "discretion" requirement.

LLL writes, "This restrictive language requiring discretion does not promote breastfeeding, and should not be copied by other states."

People who do not embrace the sight of breastfeeding are deemed to be anti-mother or anti-baby when they may be simply anti-rudeness.

Breastfeeding is natural and our society undoubtedly overreacts to naked breasts. But the winner-take-all approach of extreme advocates only acts to polarize society on a problem for which reasonable solutions can evolve. When done with some discretion, public breastfeeding is becoming socially acceptable with many businesses accommodating the shift.

Breastfeeding need not devolve into cultural warfare. The issue will yield to courtesy, common sense and a bit of respect for the other person's rights.

Wendy McElroy is the editor of ifeminists.com and a research fellow for The Independent Institute in Oakland, Calif. She is the author and editor of many books and articles, including the new book, "Liberty for Women: Freedom and Feminism in the 21st Century" (Ivan R. Dee/Independent Institute, 2002). She lives with her husband in Canada.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129908,00.html
 
Strange weather we're having this summer, huh?! Three major hurricanes in four weeks!
 
And, then, there is Rhode Island, which merely says breastfeeding in public does not violate criminal statutes.


This simplistic approach may be the best one...I don't want manners or etiquette defined by law.
 
sweetnpetite.....

Thanks for the infopost...this has been going on for a long time, cropped up in the 60's.....pops up now and again...

Then unacknowledged conflict is that breasts are both nurturing tools for an infant and tools of stimulation for the male...a dual purpose...so to speak...

and from some ladies I have spoken with, the act of breast feeding is also sexually stimulating...a further complication.

One does not question the morality of tribal members in New Guinea or Nigeria breastfeeding in public...nor to a litter of pups or kittens nursing in view of all....

It is seldom that one sees a woman breastfeed in public, thus, a portion of your paste, which implies there is an agenda involved, is germane...I think...

When it comes to a matter of public or private property, I think the parameters were fairly laid out, enough for anyone to take a position....

Most breastfeeding women in public usually use a blanket to cover the child and the breasts...those who make no effort to cover would appear to me to have an agenda of sorts...

This is not a life or death issue, but it does point of the complexity of modern society, morals and ethics...and even local standards...

interesting....thanks for the post....


amicus...(final parting comment censored)

http://www.literotica.com:81/stories/memberpage.php?uid=261558&page=submissions
 
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As with many arguments about legal "rights" and "duties" the advice to consider the opposite first is good.

Consider the pros and cons of a law making it compulsory to go to a public place to breast-feed, and to do it so that the breast is clarly visible to anyone passing.

Clearly this is stupid. Hence the opposite extreme is also stupid.

Therefore since compulsory and banning are stupid, a very complex decision needs to be made.

Legislatures are very bad at complex decisions; they tend to polarise into two camps and then reach a compromise which satisfies nobody.

And my solution, you ask?

No law, no problem.
 
sweetnpetite said:
... namely, nursing mothers must cover up or use the bathroom.

Yeah -- I'd like to make folks EAT in a public restroom. How UNsanitary can you GET?

These battles are not new -- but they are disturbing.

Nursing is a natural, beautiful thing. Celebrate it -- don't denigrate it! It's GOOD for babies and it's cheaper (which could very well be the source of the unrest).
 
I agree, it is one of the most natural actions in life, whats the problem.

The problem is with the people who think breastfeeding is just a way to be sexual in public. I dont know about the rest of you moms that nursed, but only once did any sexual stimulation take place and that was one of the first times after I got home from hospital and nursed. I left it to hormones.

(Except for with my husband, but thats a different story)

I agree, who would allow themselves to be put in a public restroom or be shrouded with a blanket to eat? Betcha none of the ones that want to make it illegal.

I always felt like I was trying to hid the fact that I was feeding with the blanket trick. Most times you couldnt tell what I was doing until you saw the little feet hanging under my arm.

One thing I dont understand, if it is so healthy for a baby to be nursed, why do so many make it so difficult on those who choose to. It baffles me!

Those who are doing it for the health of their kids do it discreatly, those who have other motives dont.
JMO, SC
 
SensualCealy said:
I dont know about the rest of you moms that nursed, but only once did any sexual stimulation take place and that was one of the first times after I got home from hospital and nursed.

I never got anything out of it except the joy of bonding with my children. I'm sure if I'd allowed my mind to wonder while nursing, I'd have become aroused -- but I'm certain that's independent of nursing (as I so often demonstrate to myself these days).

As with most things, there's probably money behind the persecution. Breast milk isn't very lucrative -- especially to the formula industry.
 
Etiquette

It should be left to the mother to decide how appropriate or not breastfeeding would be in the location she is in.

If she thinks it would be likely to offend others or attract unwelcome attention she should be discreet about it.

If she and her companions or bystanders are likely to be comfortable with her breastfeeding then she could do it openly.

Politeness is the art of making other people comfortable with your behaviour.

Insisting that it is a mother's right to breastfeed anywhere at anytime, or the converse that she should be hustled out of sight, are both impolite.

People in the vicinity of the breastfeeding mother should not stare openly. That would make the mother uncomfortable and is therefore not polite.

Personally I would prefer a mother to breastfeed without exposing herself too much but that is a result of my upbringing. My prejudices shouldn't limit what she wants to do. I would far rather have a mother breastfeed in my presence than endure the racket from an unnecessarily distressed baby. Just don't ask me to burp it afterwards. I have done that too often in the past and know the result can be messy.

Og

PS. Yes, I do allow, and have allowed, breastfeeding in my shop.
 
People who do not embrace the sight of breastfeeding are deemed to be anti-mother or anti-baby when they may be simply anti-rudeness.


Rude, or "unacceptably rude?!"

Isn't it rude when a man grabs his balls in public? Or hawks a loogee and spits in public? Or farts, belches, or tells off-color jokes? **

Isn't that rude?! Quite frankly I'd rather see the most blatantly obvious beast-feeding in public rather than any of the above, but noooo... breastfeeding is now "rude." To which I say, hogwash.

I've been around nursing mothers all my life. If I'm uncomfortable, it's my issue, not theirs. I've never been around a woman who breastfeeds her baby in a "rude" manner. Usually there is a blanket or part of the shirt covering the nipple- but even if it wasn't, what'st he big freaking deal?! It's a breast, for God's sake!

For some reason this topic reminds me of the Janet Jackson tit fiasco. It's just a tit people! But somehow I'm supposed to be ashamed because I have them? Because they symbolize in some people's mind something nasty and dirty from which small children and innocent victims should be protected? Again I say, hogwash.

I fully intend to breastfeed any babies I'm blessed with; for the most part, due to my own shy nature, I will most-likely breast feed as inconspicuosly as possible, but I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm breast feeding and I'm not going to be ashamed because I'm doing it. And yes, if I'm stuck in an airplane with a fussy baby who just won't quiet down, you can damn well bet I'll be breast-feeding said baby right there in coach class rather than squeeze my way down an aisle and squeeze into the small lavatory just to feed my baby. Ridiculous. The laws don't need revision, the way we think does.


**(No, the last four items aren't exclusive to male behavior, but men do tend to do them more than women.)
 
McKenna,

You are likely to find that European attitudes are far more relaxed than in parts of the US.

Breast exposure is no big deal for most of us. Neither is breast feeding. What can cause offence is politicisation of the act - overt breastfeeding to demonstrate that the mother is in-your-face liberated. Many things that are not offensive can be made so by the attitude of the person doing the act.

I object to mothers (and fathers) who do not believe in child discipline and will let their little horrors run riot with no attempt to instill any respect for other people or their property. By 'discipline' I mean inculcating a reasonable for the child's age sense of what should or should not be done, not physical discipline by slapping. I know that some small children who are tired and perhaps hurting, maybe teething, can be unbearable to their parents and everyone around. That is very different from a child who is given no understanding or training of self-control.

As for Janet's tit - so what? More can be seen in any cheap daily newspaper every day. It would not have been more than a small item in the 'oddities' section of a newspaper.

Og
 
Joe Wordsworth said:
Not into breast feeding in public.
Don't take this the wrong way, but what the fuck does that mean? I don't think anyone is into breast feeding, in public or in private, after the first year or two of life.

Not into fat bald men. Should be kept indoor at all times.
 
Originally posted by Lauren Hynde
Don't take this the wrong way, but what the fuck does that mean? I don't think anyone is into breast feeding, in public or in private, after the first year or two of life.

Not into fat bald men. Should be kept indoor at all times.

It means "[I'm] not into [women] breast feeding [their children] in public".
 
shereads said:
Strange weather we're having this summer, huh?! Three major hurricanes in four weeks!

More hugs?

:rose:

It's been bloody windy here lately, actually! So windy, in fact, it blew my top off and exposed my tits in public. Shock! :rolleyes:

Hey, one of my kids was *made* in a public place, you think I had any worries about breastfeeding them in public?

Lou ;)
 
Originally posted by Lauren Hynde
And what does that have to do with breastfeeding?

I'm not sure I understand the question. What does breastfeeding have to do with breastfeeding? (unless its that I seperated the two words by a space, which is a bit of a typo, in such a case as that, ignore the space)

Please clarify.
 
Tatelou said:


Hey, one of my kids was *made* in a public place, you think I had any worries about breastfeeding them in public?

Lou ;)

LOL!!!

No one blinks an eye if a woman starts feeding a baby from a bottle - why should breast feeding cause such a fuss? Probably has to do with the fact that most people forget what the basic function of womens' breasts are for!!
 
Goldie Munro said:
LOL!!!

No one blinks an eye if a woman starts feeding a baby from a bottle - why should breast feeding cause such a fuss? Probably has to do with the fact that most people forget what the basic function of womens' breasts are for!!

Yup, and they think with their dicks, or fannies, depending on their sexual leaning. Hey, I'm trying to be all encompassing here. ;)

Lou :rose:
 
oggbashan said:
McKenna,

You are likely to find that European attitudes are far more relaxed than in parts of the US.

~snip~

There are days, Og, when I regret I moved back to America.

:rose:
 
Joe Wordsworth said:
Not into breast feeding in public. Should be handled in private.

Sounds like a personal problem.

Would you mind expressing your opinions in a less public forum, please? They are offensive. That kind of thing should be handled in private.
 
Long before the invention of the baby bottle,Playtex, Gerber or anything else, it was a woman's breast that ensured the prolonging of an infant's life, there was no shame, no finger pointing, it was the way that humans survived.

When the fuck did we become so civilized as to see this as a shameless, iimmoral and sexually gratifying act? It's a lifeline, it's nurturing and bonding, it's not filthy, it's food for fuck's sake.

This burns my ass more than a three foot flame, people need to get their minds out of the gutter and back into what matters in society.

My red hot two cents.:devil:
 
This has to be one of the most insane things. Nothing could be more natural. Being a mother who once breast fed her children, I can assure you, it's the mothers who are most embarrassed. I like most then and now (the ones I see) use a blanket and cover up the best they can. I had bras that had the cups unsnap to get the job done. I didn't nor do I see mothers hiking their shirts over their heads or act in any other lude manner. I'm going to refrain from going on a full on rant, but shouldn't we be more worried about our teen age daughters dressing in belly shirts, belly rings, and looking twice their age? Maybe we should ban people who use their knife as a shovel, use their sleeve as a napkin, and pick their noses at the dinner table. Leave the babies and mothers alone. Who is it in the world today, who's biggest worry is mothers feeding their babies ???
 
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