Oldies but Goodies

[WickedEve]

Occasionally, I read through some of the older threads and realize how much great information is lying dormant on the very back pages of the poetry forum. I thought I'd gather up some of the more valuable posts and place them on one thread. Please feel free to add to this thread. Also, remember that these posts are the opinions of the posters. You may or may not agree with their views on poetry.

Let's start with punctuation and line breaks:

Posted by daughter on 1/16/02

punctuation is wonderful tool that often is foresaken by the novice, WS.

Line breaks, in my opinion, are a poor substitute for poetry sans punctuation particularily if the poet hasn't mastered the skill of line breaking.

Unfortunately, the illiterate poet mistakenly reads a lot of contemporary poetry where this is prevelant and assumes that it's okay not to punctuate. However, you and I know that punctuation is like road map signals. They help us to slow down, stop, accentuate something in a read.

I am not oppose to syntax-free poetry. What concerns me is failure to learn what is appropriate and most effective in any given work. In truth, there is quite a bit of contemporary poetry where the poets do use punctuation. In fact, I'd argue more use it than don't. And that tells you something about what our online peers are reading. Pick up any anthology.

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Posted by Unmasked Poet 1/20/02

Sonnets

Yes you can break the lines, although that is bucking tradition. Many newer sonnet writers do this adopting a more free verse structure. To me it is just another variation on a theme.

The line breaks can be used for a variety of effects, primarly when it is done in "free verse sonnets" it is used to:

Create a alternate rhythm within the rhyme pattern.

Try the line breaks, measure the feel of it visual and oral,
then post it and get some opinions.

 

[Angeline]

I suppose my opinions on jazz aren't relevant in this thread then?

 

[WickedEve]

I suppose my opinions on jazz aren't relevant in this thread then?

I want it all! This may take me a while... I'm reading through tons of posts. I hate to see all that information buried. So, I'm digging it up, which means I have time to do it tonight, which means I have no life tonight...

 

[WickedEve]

About Poetry by Unmasked Poet 2/3/02

Learning to fly, a line at a time.

In my opinion, a good poem:
Uses an image or images open enough that we can walk inside it.
A good poem will have technique and form.
A good poem must have style.
A good poem must have a voice, which speaks to you.

For this example let’s take a look at a good poem.

For the first part of this discussion we are only going to talk about imagery and how the use of key words affect that image. I will do this all through the illustration of one line of the poem. Please read the entire poem think about what it means to you. Then return to the first line.

A Private Affair

Rolling restless across rumpled waves of percale green.
Reckless fingers race down slippery-paved road between.
Sweat sliding, gliding down my skin slick, glowing, glistening.
Breathing rapid, hurried, heaving as I lie listening.
Mind melting, thoughts liquid, pouring, puddling, muddling up my brain.
Wants trickle and run, needs bleed, must have it before I go insane!

This is a good line, yet in my opinion it lacks space. Take another look:

“Rolling restless across rumpled waves of percale green.”

A nice image indeed, yet it could be better. When you read the line I feel the poet has left us no room by providing more detail than we need. We do see the image, yet we are bystanders being hand held through it.
Let’s put aside the alliteration used (The multiple use of words that begin with the letter R) Bravo! We will address the alliteration when we examine the form.

In reducing the line to its heart while still making sense I would say this is better:

Restless waves of percale green

In the changed line we get the same image as the original, yet we are forced to think and to enter the image instead of being bystanders.
To decipher the meaning of the opening words “Restless waves.” Our first thought may be that she’s dreaming, tossing, and turning. Then perhaps, she’s awake and frustrated? Maybe she’s drowning? We have an idea that’s close to the writers’ intent, but it is open enough so that we don’t have all the answers. The mind loves a mystery and a journey. A poem does not have to be a mystery, but it must be a journey. The answer comes to this mystery in the words “of percale green.” Of course, it’s sheets! Now that we have this feeling, or thought, is the image now complete in our minds? No not yet! We know it sheets but the fact that our minds must search for the connection of a subtle color makes the image transparent.

If the poet had said blue we might have thought she was referring to the ocean.

Restless waves of blue.

If she had said red we might have thought she was having a seizure, or was angry.

Restless waves of red.

If she had said green we might think grass.

Restless waves of green.

Isn’t it amazing how one word can change the meaning of the entire line?
This is the art of poetry! When you have finished constructing a poem, stand back and look at it line by line, as I have done here. Then reduce that line to its core image. Is the image alone enough? Here I think it is. The condensed line is far more powerful and yet subtle. We get a delight, a shiver as we ponder it. At least I do.

“Restless waves of percale green.”

What is key here is “percale”, a simple word yet it adds depth, imagery and clearly leads us, yet does not overwhelm us. A less experienced poet might have felt the need to add things like:

“Restless waves of soft sunflowers on percale green sheets.”

That may be better to some yet all it really does is render a flat image that requires little thought or imagination. It’s okay yet after we read it once what is there to think about? Does it resonate inside you? I say it doesn’t. But then I expect more for poetry than many. I expect a journey.

Next we will look at form using the first line only.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Great Idea and a hardy thank you
sign me up for class <grin>
I have several posts from you three witches of east Lit-wick
(I mean't lovely ladies) The thread Stumped on the river
and Poem Academy both have information from
liar wicked and grasshopper

One is but a drop of water
but together they can make a wave <grin> ...cool!
apple for the teacher and a pair of handcuffs

 

[WickedEve]

Form

Nothing clears a room faster than a call for free drinks or a discussion on form.
Poets with talent and without talent will turn blue and pout at the very mention of the word. In my opinion form is the skeleton that you hang your words on. Every poem to be successful must have form. Most poems you read will be in freeverse, which is a poetic form. Freeverse, while not as structured as a sonnet, will still use many of the techniques used in sonnet construction. It may also throw in devices from other forms. Hence the form name. The important thing to remember about forms is that the title is literal. They are just forms! You pour words into the form and you get a poem. Can you write a formless poem? Of course you can, but what you most often end up with is a jumble of words.

The form at its simplest is a single device. Rhyme is a device. If you rhyme you are using part of a form. If you repeat a line you are using a device (Refrain) If your poem is grouped in two lines that rhyme your are using a device (Couplet)

99% of all poems on this board use devices and as such are using form. The reason many poems do not work well is because the poets are unaware of the form, or that they’re even using it and so they cannot control it. You do not need to learn forms (although it will vastly improve your ability to write and your word choice.) If you can become only fair at devices you can succeed as a poet. Back to our poem:

A Private Affair

Rolling restless across rumpled waves of percale green.
Reckless fingers race down slippery-paved road between.
Sweat sliding, gliding down my skin slick, glowing, glistening.
Breathing rapid, hurried, heaving as I lie listening.
Mind melting, thoughts liquid, pouring, puddling, muddling up my brain.
Wants trickle and run, needs bleed, must have it before I go insane!

The poem is in Freeverse form. It use these poetic devices:

Rhythm (ah rhythm many poets do not get rhythm, like music rhythm is the beat, the time a poem moves at.) As in music there are many beats with 4/4 being the most common in popular music.
Rhyme (you guys know what rhyme is)
Meter (a unit of measurement in poetry and music)
Couplet (the grouping of two lines ending with the same rhyme)
Alliteration (The grouping of words beginning with the same letter)

Rolling restless across rumpled waves of percale green.

I know I said I would use only one line, well I’m going to cheat! Our reference line, say it aloud to yourself. You may not know what rhythm is in poetry but say the line again please. You can feel the rhythm when you speak the line, there is a time signature. No need to measure it, but we can slow it down and illustrate it by counting syllables, 13 in this line. Now lets change the rhythm:

Rolling restless across rumpled waves of percale green(13)
Changed to:
Rolling raucously across rumpled waves of percale green(14)

The second line maintains the alliteration, and still makes sense but is harsher to say. The second word “raucously” breaks the rhythm. Raucously has three distinct beats this line pattern is two. Read both lines again. Now certainly you can hear the difference in rhythm and what one single word change can do. The second line fails because the second word is out of rhythm. The 3rd word “across” being a rhythm of “2” cannot easily support the weight of “raucously” which has “3” beats or syllables, if we change the word across we can smooth out the rhythm a bit:

Rolling raucously awashed rumpled waves of percale green

That is better rhythm! Now the first line is still better but you can hear how we have smoothed out the changed line. "Awashed" and "rumpled" flow better because of the "d" a very sutle change but if you reinsert the changed line into the poem it resonates. So I think you can see or at least hear that rhythm is different from rhyme. When you change a word in a poem, you change it’s rhythm. Even when reading silently your mind will follow the rhythm of the words. Have you ever read a poem and stuttered in your head? Tripped so to speak, it happens a lot and takes you completely out of the read doesn’t it. Bad rhythm ruins the journey.

There is no need to count syllables. Speak the words and you can hear the rhythm. Often you can match syllables, and the line will still be out of rhythm or time. Word choice is everything.

The rhyme and rhythm work fairly well in this poem. Whether a poem rhymes or not good rhythm will make your poetry fly. Remember I said I was going to cheat? Well here it comes; our last example of rhythm read the entire poem.

Rolling restless across rumpled waves of percale green. (13)
Reckless fingers race down slippery-paved road between. (13)
Sweat sliding, gliding down my skin slick, glowing, glistening. (13)
Breathing rapid, hurried, heaving as I lie listening. (13)
Mind melting, thoughts liquid, pouring, puddling, muddling up my brain.(15)
Wants trickle and run, needs bleed, must have it before I go insane! (16)

Ok why do the last two lines work in this poem? Yes the rhythm is longer but that’s okay that’s a device. It is sort of like a singer holding the notes in a song to make them fit.
Remember that Dolly Parton, Whitney Houston song “I will always Love You” Hum that line, hear how long the I is held to fit the rhythm of that line. Well poets do it also, especially spoken word poets. The reason the last two lines work is because of rhythm and use of a device, not rhyme though. The third and fourth lines end in on the rhyme g. The poet set up the extension of the rhythm by using the end rhyme g earlier in the 3rd line. Notice “sliding” “gliding” “glowing” all take place before the end rhyme “glistening” (this creates a counter rhythm within the line) She continues this counter rhythm throughout the poem down into the 4th and 5th lines. On the sixth line she stops and relies on the end rhyme to bring the poem to a close. She keeps the rhythm close and stresses the end rhyme on two beats (remember that song reference?) in the last word. I doubt the poet counted the syllables (what some poets do by design, some do by instinct) I doubt the poet tried to create counter rhythm; again I’m sure it just sounded right. Yet if you like this poet's work like the style and you don’t have her natural ear if you know the devices you can write just a well, without having her talent.

Next we talk about style.

 

[WickedEve]

Great Idea and a hardy than you
sign me up for class <grin>
I have several posts from you three witches of east Lit-wick
(I mean't lovely ladies) The thread Stumped on the river
and Poem Academy both have information from
liar wicked and grasshopper

One is but a drop of water
but together they can make a wave <grin> ...cool!
apple for the teacher and a pair of handcuffs

I'm not posting anymore for now. I want to give everyone time to read and comment. I want to hear what everyone has to say about punctuation versus line breaks.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

front row seat ...
I'm a spounge <grin>

I have style just need to know
how to show it in words <laughing>

I'm always up for free poetry lessons
specially from the zen masters of pen themselves (~_~)

 

[WickedEve]

Line breaks, in my opinion, are a poor substitute for poetry sans punctuation particularily if the poet hasn't mastered the skill of line breaking.

I have poems that use punctuation and some of my poems rely on line breaks. I usually don't consider ahead of time which technique to use. It just seems to happen, and it feels right to forgo punctuation in some poems. Though, there are times that I have written a poem that seems to be lousy with commas, or I can't decide if a comma belongs or not. When this happens, I take out all punctuation. It may be lazy but it works for me.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Line breaks, in my opinion, are a poor substitute for poetry sans punctuation particularily if the poet hasn't mastered the skill of line breaking.

I have poems that use punctuation and some of my poems rely on line breaks. I usually don't consider ahead of time which technique to use. It just seems to happen, and it feels right to forgo punctuation in some poems. Though, there are times that I have written a poem that seems to be lousy with commas, or I can't decide if a comma belongs or not. When this happens, I take out all punctuation. It may be lazy but it works for me.

I have been caught doing both ...when I puntuate I get told it's wrong and would be better not to ....so I don't the next poem and get told it was good but ...needs punctuation, so what did I learn ... people all got different colored eyes

which all my poems are lately run through my new grammar tool, but some point out some obvious oversights in this program ... and some just disagree with the computers choice?!...

I read the true zen master peotry and hence came the last flower
but ...some of the poems have no punctuation ...now that might be a translation from japanesse but the spacing clearly shows where a pause and a new sentence begins so it was not confusing, I think alot become confussed by speed reading, if anything is read slow and maybe read twice it should sort out what they meant which is the same thing as crafty wordy dictionary poems. But my opinion, as you said each poem gets different touches and displays. Variables ... good question

 

[flyguy69]

I'm not posting anymore for now. I want to give everyone time to read and comment. I want to hear what everyone has to say about punctuation versus line breaks.

I just explained some of my thinking on the construction thread in response to some questions from Anna. I try to use line breaks to punch words that a) build a theme, b) complete a particularly strong image, c) create clever word-play, or d) tie two themes together (usually in conjunction with a strophe break). I try to avoid breaking on weak words, the middle of images (unless the image works well in two pieces), or mechanical parts of speech like conjunctions.

I use punctuation because it is good grammar. Which, frankly, is important.

At least, that is what I do today. I did not do this yesterday, and I may not tomorrow!

 

[echoes_s]

excellent idea Eve

and I am caught enrapt as an inspired student waking.
Thanks, I shall keep reading this one

 

[Guest]

and I am caught enrapt as an inspired student waking.
Thanks, I shall keep reading this one

Please, darlin, I differ... we can learn from you as well

 

[PatCarrington]

I'm not posting anymore for now. I want to give everyone time to read and comment. I want to hear what everyone has to say about punctuation versus line breaks.

i think if you are going to write without punctuation, you'd better really know what you're doing.

but no punctuation is far better than poor punctuation, in my opinion.

with no punctuation, most good readers can put it in for themselves as they go.

 

[BooMerengue]

stop

go down this hill

s
l
o
w
l
y

your heart will

explode​

 

[BooMerengue]

lol

it didn't do what I wanted... spur of the moment usually doesn't... slowly was supposed to be slanted.

Sorry Pat.
Not making fun... just tryin something!

 

[PatCarrington]

lol

it didn't do what I wanted... spur of the moment usually doesn't... slowly was supposed to be slanted.

Sorry Pat.
Not making fun... just tryin something!

that is FINE without punctuation.

punctuation would screw it up.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

At least, that is what I do today. I did not do this yesterday, and I may not tomorrow! <<<<<"I like that"

Hey ~ echos s (always good to see you)

hey neo ~

where's the wicked one?
????
line break is a space between sentences

like this or is it simply the end of one line <<<
and begin another with out filling it like now? <<<

punctuation <<<got it >>> workin on ....
also got a new grammar tool <grin> won't let me write
most things wrong it tunrs red...been a big help ...hehehe
problem is it's on another computer (older) I bought for the studio ...

okay I'm with ya up to now teach, you got sexy stockings and garter on??
wiggling your ass while cleaning the chalk-board?


Sister Tereasa asked the kids,
"Which part of you goes to heaven first?"
Lil girl ..."Your hands cause when you pray,
God will reach down and pick you up by your hands."
Little Johnny ..."Nope, by your feet,
my Mom had her feet straight up in the air yelling,
'Oh God, I'm Coming!' And if Dad didn't nail her
down, she would have gone, I bet!"

(EDITED PUNCTUATION WITH GRAMMAR TOOL see any problems?)
in literary correctness a space would be between each persons
line. correct? line break?

 

[wildsweetone]

Just to grab the rat by the tail and swing it a little...

I like poems for the words and the pauses that I can read WITHIN them.
Each poem is unique.
Each poet is unique.
It has to be that way because we are all individual people with
individual experiences.

One poets punctuation may not be read the same way as that poet intended. Does that make the punctuation relevant, or irrelevant?

 

[BooMerengue]

that is FINE without punctuation.

punctuation would screw it up.

Know what? I smell another challenge. A hard one. A free style poem that tells of some kind of movement, but allowing no punctuation.

 

[PatCarrington]

Know what? I smell another challenge. A hard one. A free style poem that tells of some kind of movement, but allowing no punctuation.

how about one challenge at a time......

i'm still working on your other one.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Know what? I smell another challenge. A hard one. A free style poem that tells of some kind of movement, but allowing no punctuation.

Good Idea Boo ...
I'm good at that <grin>


I like this:

One poets punctuation may not be read the same way as that poet intended. Does that make the punctuation relevant, or irrelevant?

 

[BooMerengue]

Honey! Thats not a challenge I would throw down. That's a tough one... I'm gonna leave that one up to you.

Did you see the Due Date change for Simpler Days? I changed it to Sunday, March 13. Some needed more time.

Including me...

 

[PatCarrington]

Honey! Thats not a challenge I would throw down. That's a tough one... I'm gonna leave that one up to you.

Did you see the Due Date change for Simpler Days? I changed it to Sunday, March 13. Some needed more time.

Including me...

i did.

i am going to be traveling for the next 3 weeks, with sporadic internet access.
i'll probably be able to post it on that day.

if not, is a day early or late ok?

 

[BooMerengue]

Maybe it'll be ok, but I think some will get intimidated by your profound words and not post their own as a result.

You could send it to a trusted friend and ask them to post it for you... You're talking about the 13th right?