Oh, those kinky cavemen

[3113]

A hunter gatherer tribe has to have children born or the tribe dies. It is not a matter of the young being a lot of trouble to raise and feed, they are the only future that the tribe has. However, if the life of a child puts the tribe at risk, the child will die on the spot.

Which runs completely contrary to your arguement that men feed the children because they THINK the children belong to them!

I mean, dude, that argument gets weaker with every post. You say you've studied hunter-gatherer tribes. Okay. So tell me, do the guys hunt alone? To they make the kill, all alone? I don't think so. This isn't like a guy with a gun who can go out and shoot down a bear to feed his family all on his own. These guys work together to bring down the animal. ALSO to keep other predators from getting to it after it's dead. A lone guy with a dead animal is at risk from some larger animal with sharp teeth and claws that wants to take that dead animal away from him.

Also to bring it back to the cave. Or do you think primitive tribes tied a gazelle to the bumber of this:

http://www.sconsig.com/florida/pict0114.jpg​

So if ALL the men hunt down all the meat, then all the meat goes to all the tribe. This is not a nuclear family with one guy fetching meat for his wife and kids. The meat a guy has hunted down goes to everyone, including women he's never slept with (Aborigine tribes of Australia had elders who decided if the young men got to have sex! Which means that in many cases, virgin guys were hunting down meat for women with children that COULD NOT be theirs! Hell, they weren't even paying for sex!).

Finally, you presume in your original argument that the women only provide children--which is the only reason for men to give them meat. This is correct for later, aristocratic societies where women just sat around and embroidered, but ridiculous for a society where that "gather" part is as essential as the hunt. Who is maintaining the fires? Making tools, homes, clothes? Trapping small animals in case the hunt is bad? Etc. etc. etc.

The women, with babies on their backs, are doing all this and more. They are an intregal part of the tribe and they don't have to have a man's baby (or make him think the baby is his) to earn their share of the food.

As for elders, there was a recent special on that noted that hunter/gatherer tribes use elders to watch over children while the adults hunt/gather, etc. So while you're correct that SOME tribes on the march, etc. will abandon the old and sick, there are those that won't and don't need to. The elders do have a viable job and can stick around until THEY decide it's time for them to go off and die.

Not every hunter/gatherer tribe is alike.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Not every hunter/gatherer tribe is alike.[/QUOTE]

Which is really the point. Broad generalizations just don't work. They did whatever they had to in order to preserve the group/clan/tribe. Including self-sacrifice at times, which is a distinctly possible origin for the otherwise horrendous practice of human sacrifice. Some people might have felt it an honor in some cultures (Celts, for instance) to be sacrificed to save the tribe.

Take the Jewish people, for instance. A patriarchal society at one point when they were pastoral, they became more matriarchal over time and under rabbinical influence (as indicated by certain passages in the Talmud). It was a matter of survival to base lineage and identity on the mother, since a minority in Christian Europe was prone to rape and enslavement, and most Jews are sadly forcibly disarmed by many princes.

 

[FatDino]

Which runs completely contrary to your arguement that men feed the children because they THINK the children belong to them!

I mean, dude, that argument gets weaker with every post. You say you've studied hunter-gatherer tribes. Okay. So tell me, do the guys hunt alone? To they make the kill, all alone? I don't think so. This isn't like a guy with a gun who can go out and shoot down a bear to feed his family all on his own. These guys work together to bring down the animal. ALSO to keep other predators from getting to it after it's dead. A lone guy with a dead animal is at risk from some larger animal with sharp teeth and claws that wants to take that dead animal away from him.

Also to bring it back to the cave. Or do you think primitive tribes tied a gazelle to the bumber of this:

http://www.sconsig.com/florida/pict0114.jpg​

So if ALL the men hunt down all the meat, then all the meat goes to all the tribe. This is not a nuclear family with one guy fetching meat for his wife and kids. The meat a guy has hunted down goes to everyone, including women he's never slept with (Aborigine tribes of Australia had elders who decided if the young men got to have sex! Which means that in many cases, virgin guys were hunting down meat for women with children that COULD NOT be theirs! Hell, they weren't even paying for sex!).

Finally, you presume in your original argument that the women only provide children--which is the only reason for men to give them meat. This is correct for later, aristocratic societies where women just sat around and embroidered, but ridiculous for a society where that "gather" part is as essential as the hunt. Who is maintaining the fires? Making tools, homes, clothes? Trapping small animals in case the hunt is bad? Etc. etc. etc.

The women, with babies on their backs, are doing all this and more. They are an intregal part of the tribe and they don't have to have a man's baby (or make him think the baby is his) to earn their share of the food.

As for elders, there was a recent special on that noted that hunter/gatherer tribes use elders to watch over children while the adults hunt/gather, etc. So while you're correct that SOME tribes on the march, etc. will abandon the old and sick, there are those that won't and don't need to. The elders do have a viable job and can stick around until THEY decide it's time for them to go off and die.

Not every hunter/gatherer tribe is alike.

Great post, 3113. And may I have a ride in that um...cart of yours?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Great post, 3113. And may I have a ride in that um...cart of yours?

silly Dino! Are you going to hang your head out the side, tongue lolling?

 

[rgraham666]

I have one of Stella's creations. She was my secret santa this past year. I'm a lucky, lucky girl.

I got to use one of Stella's creations on some one last year.

She liked it.

 

[FatDino]

silly Dino! Are you going to hang your head out the side, tongue lolling?

Yep, and let out a series of "ooh" and "ahh" in no particular orders.

 

[R. Richard]

I mean, dude, that argument gets weaker with every post. You say you've studied hunter-gatherer tribes. Okay. So tell me, do the guys hunt alone? To they make the kill, all alone? I don't think so. This isn't like a guy with a gun who can go out and shoot down a bear to feed his family all on his own. These guys work together to bring down the animal. ALSO to keep other predators from getting to it after it's dead. A lone guy with a dead animal is at risk from some larger animal with sharp teeth and claws that wants to take that dead animal away from him.

The men usually hunt as a group. However, they don't have guns, so they often wind up chasing the beastie for some distance after the first spear or arrow slows the beastie down. In many tribes, the guy who get the first spear or arrow into the beastie also gets first choice of the meat. [You see, beasties are not uniform inside, there are good and less good sections and even bad sections that are normally thrown away.] After the first spear or arrow it is often necessary to chase the beastie for some distance. The guy who slows the beastie down after the initial spear or arrow also gains some points. However, not every hunter/gatherer tribe is alike.

So if ALL the men hunt down all the meat, then all the meat goes to all the tribe. This is not a nuclear family with one guy fetching meat for his wife and kids. The meat a guy has hunted down goes to everyone, including women he's never slept with (Aborigine tribes of Australia had elders who decided if the young men got to have sex! Which means that in many cases, virgin guys were hunting down meat for women with children that COULD NOT be theirs! Hell, they weren't even paying for sex!).

You assume that all of the meat is shared equally among the tribe members. Then you tell me that some tribes have elders who make key decisions, like who gets to have sex. However, in your world, not who gets what meat. Could you explain a bit more about this puzzling matter?

As in most societies, hunter gatherers tend to have a sort of initiation fee. "You want pussy, first bring back a nice haunch of beastie, then we get you some pussy." As in most societies, the young guys want to get handy with tools, so they can score some pussy. They are willing to work now for later rewards.

Who gets what meat is impacted by how much meat there is. When the tribe is starving, little or no meat is available for those who are not contributing members. It may sound cruel, but these are people living on the edge and they can't afford to support non-productive members. Those tribes who can operate out of a fixed base take better care of the very young and the very old, because they can afford to. Those tribe that have to move with the movement of animals and the ripening of whatever growing food that they use have to abandon those who can't move with the tribe, it is not really a choice.

Incidently, the matter of sharing of the meat from the hunt is an extremely important part of hunter/gaterer life. Among the northern Cree Amerinds, the men go out and hunt. When they return to base camp, the men's game bags are turned over to the women, who divide up the meat from the day's hunt. Although it is an assumption, it seems wise to remove a heavily armed guy who worked his butt off all day and came up dry from having to face up to the fact that he provided no meat for that day. However, not every hunter/gatherer tribe is alike.

Finally, you presume in your original argument that the women only provide children--which is the only reason for men to give them meat. This is correct for later, aristocratic societies where women just sat around and embroidered, but ridiculous for a society where that "gather" part is as essential as the hunt. Who is maintaining the fires? Making tools, homes, clothes? Trapping small animals in case the hunt is bad? Etc. etc. etc.

The women, with babies on their backs, are doing all this and more. They are an integral part of the tribe and they don't have to have a man's baby (or make him think the baby is his) to earn their share of the food.

I don't presume that women only provide children. The women do a lot of work, much of it heavy work. The women have their areas of authority, the men have theirs. Actually, hunter/gatherer women are more equal to the men than women are in early stages of agriculture. Around a camp, the women basically run things, since that is their territory. On the move, the men basically run things, since that is their territory. However, not every hunter/gatherer tribe is alike.

I have been to the Kalahiri. I have, as a result read up on the old days in the Kalahari. In the old days, the bushmen lived on the very edge. The men looked like Olympic decathalon winners, since they had to chase down beaties to survive. The women had huge buttocks, so that they could use the fat to survive a pregnancy. The women had [and still have!] an interesting modification to their pussies in order to meet the conditions they found in the Kalahari.

As for elders, there was a recent special on that noted that hunter/gatherer tribes use elders to watch over children while the adults hunt/gather, etc. So while you're correct that SOME tribes on the march, etc. will abandon the old and sick, there are those that won't and don't need to. The elders do have a viable job and can stick around until THEY decide it's time for them to go off and die.

Not every hunter/gatherer tribe is alike.

Of course, elders in a hunter/gatherer tribe play as much of a role as they can. A hunter/gatherer tribe can't support useless people. An older woman will work as a baby sitter and fire minder. An older man will counsel the younger hunters as to where to go to find game and water.

The true hunter/gatherer tribes have no real option to abandoning the old and/or the sick. They must march or die. They don't hate the old or the sick, for someday they will all be at least old. Frequently the old will attempt to stay in an area that might provide food for one person, since they will die if they attempt to keep up with the tribe.

There is no Medicare for hunter/gatherers.