Oh, Newt! Say it isn't so.

[shereads]

That is exactly what Newt was refering to, and that is exactly what the original article evaded. How about another set of definitions from a different dictionary:

Hypocrite:
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.​

Newt's stated beliefs on the pertinent issue are that Perjury is wrong, especially from someone sworn to uphold and protect the laws of the country. He acted on those beliefs and hasn't been shown to not live by that belief, ergo not a hypocrite on the issue.

EDIT: removed cheap shot.

The flaw in this argument, as it pertains to Clinton's impeachment, is that the technical truth of it has nothing to do with the reality of why it happened: when the four-year Whitewater investigation failed to turn up anything that would bring the Clintons down, the resources and authority of that investigation were channeled into a sting operation with the goal of getting Clinton to perjure himself - by asking a question that any man in his position, from Newt Gingrich to Strom Thurmond, would have denied because he believed was no one's business.

Starr's office leaked the news about Monica, and when America didn't react with the hoped-for outrage, Clinton was maneuvered into answering a question, under oath, that none of Clinton's detractors had a moral right to hear answered.

Clinton had the option of never asking the Justice Department to appoint a special investigator; he did it knowing the Whitewater investigation would not turn up evidence of criminal wrongdoing, and that putting it to rest once and for all would free the White House from the stream of accusations and legal obstacles thrown at him by the right from the day he took office. He could have saved himself by simply refusing to cooperate, the way Bush and Cheney refused to testify before the 9/11 commission - until they were promised they could testify without swearing an oath.

The double standard applied by the right to Clinton and Bush/Cheney has been disheartening to witness; to see it justified based on the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law is outrageous.

One president was all but driven from office because he cooperated with his enemies. His successor took the opposite approach to an investigation that was actually relevent to his performance in office: asked to appear before the 9/11 commission, he at first refused, and then attached strings that would only have mattered if he expected to lie.

No sworn oath = no perjury, no matter the number of lies or the serioiusness of your failure.

As far as Gingrich goes, I don't care what kind of "line in his mind" he drew. He didn't couch his attacks on the Clintons in legalese; he went after them as the standard-bearer for morality and family values.

He was, and is, the worst sort of hypocrite: the kind who lies to himself. Edited to remove cheap shot, etc.

 

[only_more_so]

I was not supporting Newt, I was saying that your initial argument about his hypocrisy was not supported in the article or definition you posted. In order to call him a hypocrite you have to pull in all sorts of other issues where the facts are much less clean cut.

In the article there are a number of facts that neither side was disputing. Newt had an affair, Clinton had an affair, Clinton lied under oath about his affair under oath, and Newt pursued impeached for Clinton's lies under oath. If that is the entirety of the facts, then you can't call Newt a hypocrite.

If you are going to pull in 9/11 conspiracies and the like, I could pull out dozens of conspiracies that were linked to Clinton and his administration.

The truth is that everyone sees these conspiracies with tinted lenses depending on who's side is doing the accusing. Personally, I think most of the conspiracies are anything but, and usually when there is a conspiracy it wasn't done by the people getting accused of wrong doing.

Also, as much as I would like to blame the politicians for all of the political maneuverings that so many people complain about, I have realized that I can't. Why? Ever wonder why Survivor is a hit show? Why Rosie is still on the View, let alone on TV? Why? Because most people love scandals, even if they won't admit it. They want the juicy lurid details, they want to be shocked and disgusted. Politicians are experts at getting the people what they want.

That's why I hate politics and won't watch reality TV. Conflict and underhanded behavior don't appeal to me. I would add, "at all" to that last sentence, except obviously I'm posting here and there is conflict. A part of me says it's to defuse the conflict, but that's not entirely true.

 

[Huckleman2000]

I was not supporting Newt, I was saying that your initial argument about his hypocrisy was not supported in the article or definition you posted. In order to call him a hypocrite you have to pull in all sorts of other issues where the facts are much less clean cut.

No, only you seem to have to do that. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us.

In the article there are a number of facts that neither side was disputing. Newt had an affair, Clinton had an affair, Clinton lied under oath about his affair under oath, and Newt pursued impeached for Clinton's lies under oath. If that is the entirety of the facts, then you can't call Newt a hypocrite.

Obviously, to anyone with even passing acquaintance with the events, that is NOT 'the entirety of the facts.' If you want to remove historical events from their context and argue narrow definitions according to rigid legalistic terms of your own definition, than become a defense attorney. Hypocrisy isn't an indictable offense - quite the opposite. Nor is it limited to only violating the single offense of which you accuse your enemies. Especially when you accuse your enemies of a lack of moral character, as was a common theme of the Gingrich Congress. (a term which may yet come to a new meaning...)

If you are going to pull in 9/11 conspiracies and the like, I could pull out dozens of conspiracies that were linked to Clinton and his administration.

And that would disprove Gingrich's hypocrisy, how? You don't get to say, "My guy's not a hypocrite because your guy is worse!" That's not how logic works.

The truth is that everyone sees these conspiracies with tinted lenses depending on who's side is doing the accusing. [blah blah]

No, that's not "the truth." Many people can look at these issues and make reasoned judgments about them. Your own inability to do that doesn't negate the rest of us, who don't have your "tinted lenses." I can hold in my mind that Clinton lied to a grand jury, and yet was not the worst in the situation from a moral standpoint. I can separate morality from legality, and understand that hypocrisy is a term that applies to either, but more appropriately to the former.

 

[mckai777]

Besides that, it's hard to pull off that whole party of values and family and morality shit when they can't keep their pants on.

Amen.

 

[Guest]

Amen.

Agreed.

And also horrified at the thought of Newt sans pants.

 

[Seattle Zack]

I think the Man Rule still applies: Always Lie About Having Sex with the Fat Chick. Lie to your wife, to the media, to anyone who asks. When presented with incontravertible evidence, deny it.

Coulda been worse, Newt could have been sniffing at underage male pages and then he would seem like a real neocon Family Values hypocrite.

 

[mckai777]

And also horrified at the thought of Newt sans pants.

Agreed. Far more revolting than the hypocrisy of it is the thought of a balding, middle-aged politician dropping trou.

 

[Carnevil9]

Agreed. Far more revolting than the hypocrisy of it is the thought of a balding, middle-aged politician dropping trou.

Hey!! Some of us balding middle-agers still like to drop trou now and then. I'd appreciate a little slack.

 

[shereads]

Agreed.

And also horrified at the thought of Newt sans pants.

Holymotherofgod. Have you no shame?

That word picture plus the one Jen painted in another thread* have now forced me to perform two emergency shut-downs of my imagination in one day. This places me at risk for permanent damage to my Mind's Eye.

You'd better hope I recover, missy. My attorneys will be in touch.


























*Cheney Vampire Boner

 

[shereads]

I think the Man Rule still applies: Always Lie About Having Sex with the Fat Chick. Lie to your wife, to the media, to anyone who asks. When presented with incontravertible evidence, deny it.

I disagree. I wish Bill had answered, "Yes, I let Ms. Lewinsky blow me, while I was counting the budget surplus in billions... Is that a problem?"

We'd have all moved onto other things, lickety-split. With one notable exception:

Ken Starr would have suffered a breakdown and shown up at Gingrich's house drunk on cheap booze, seeking a shoulder to cry on and a nice pair of wingtips to throw up on. Insted, he'd have discovered Newt and his mistress dressed as a latex Hogan and Colonel Klink. What might have happened next, we can only speculate. It would almost certainly have been ugly, but in a good way.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mckai777
Agreed. Far more revolting than the hypocrisy of it is the thought of a balding, middle-aged politician dropping trou.

Hey!! Some of us balding middle-agers still like to drop trou now and then. I'd appreciate a little slack.

Yeah, what he said. You can call me fat and bald and middle-aged (which I would take as a compliment) but DON'T call me a politician!

 

[S-Des]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mckai777
Agreed. Far more revolting than the hypocrisy of it is the thought of a balding, middle-aged politician dropping trou.




Yeah, what he said. You can call me fat and bald and middle-aged (which I would take as a compliment) but DON'T call me a politician!

Besides, Newt's not balding. He's got that creepy, completely thick white hair. Looks like he should have been a televangelist (that would make the dropping trou much more reasonable ).

BTW, the best description of Newt ever was by Dennis Miller. He said he talked to him at a party and was shocked that he actually looked like a dick...not a jerk, but actually a giant penis (with the white hair).

 

[matriarch]

As an outsider from across the water, I know I speak for the majority of the British Public, in that we just couldn't see what the whole damn fuss was about. So Clinton had a fling.....it happens. It in no way affected the way he did his job, and he did it damn well.

I didn't see anyone asking Kennedy under oath if he'd had an affair....my, what a can of worms that would have thrown up.

The general consensus here was that this whole circus was manipulated simply to get Clinton out of office, because he was too good at the job, and too popular in and out of the country. In my limited knowledge of the recent political history of America, he was the best for some time.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

As an outsider from across the water, I know I speak for the majority of the British Public, in that we just couldn't see what the whole damn fuss was about. So Clinton had a fling.....it happens. It in no way affected the way he did his job, and he did it damn well.

I didn't see anyone asking Kennedy under oath if he'd had an affair....my, what a can of worms that would have thrown up.

The general consensus here was that this whole circus was manipulated simply to get Clinton out of office, because he was too good at the job, and too popular in and out of the country. In my limited knowledge of the recent political history of America, he was the best for some time.

It's fairly easy Mrs. M.
Newt Gingrich founded the "Moral Majority", which is a coallition of right-wing bible thumpers. The Moral Majority, under Newt's leadership, came up with "The Contract With America" which guaranteed honesty and morality in government.

It was the Moral Majority who went after Clinton. Personally, I didn't see anything wrong with the Prez getting his wick sucked by a fat chick. It's not the first time and won't be the last. The problem is, the Moral Majority waved their bibles and screamed and shouted so much about morality, they got Clinton impeached. Then they got GW elected.

Now, here we are a few years down the road and we find the Moral Majority are a bunch of hypocritic cock suckers and criminals. That's what this thread is about

 

[shereads]

Hey!! Some of us balding middle-agers still like to drop trou now and then. I'd appreciate a little slack.

Two points in defense of middle-aged men who are not Newt Gingrich:

1. With age come the skills and patience that separate the men from the boys. (Yowsa!)

2. Baldness in men is said to result from an overload of testosterone. (Sadly, baldness in women can be caused by Newt Gingrich. But that's beside the point.)

Put yourself out there, Carne.

 

[sophia jane]

Do we really have to keep calling Monica the fat chick?


My point about hypocrisy isn't so much about Newt, but about the right in general, who are more than happy to forgive their own for the same sins that they condemn in the left. In that sense, it's not just about Newt or about perjury, but about the attitude that the right is right and the left are all immoral unpatriotic crazy people.

 

[shereads]

Do we really have to keep calling Monica the fat chick?


My point about hypocrisy isn't so much about Newt, but about the right in general, who are more than happy to forgive their own for the same sins that they condemn in the left. In that sense, it's not just about Newt or about perjury, but about the attitude that the right is right and the left are all immoral unpatriotic crazy people.

Quite right. To me, she'll always be the chick in the beret.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Quite right. To me, she'll always be the chick in the beret.

And the cigar

 

[Boxlicker101]

As an outsider from across the water, I know I speak for the majority of the British Public, in that we just couldn't see what the whole damn fuss was about. So Clinton had a fling.....it happens. It in no way affected the way he did his job, and he did it damn well.

I didn't see anyone asking Kennedy under oath if he'd had an affair....my, what a can of worms that would have thrown up.

The general consensus here was that this whole circus was manipulated simply to get Clinton out of office, because he was too good at the job, and too popular in and out of the country. In my limited knowledge of the recent political history of America, he was the best for some time.

The impeachment was primarily politically motivated, but it was NOT because he had a couple of affairs. It was over perjury and sexual harassment. There are a few people who believe immorality, as they define it, would be enough to justify impeachment, but that was never even mentioned during the proceedings.

The other charges, lying in court under oath and using his authority for the purpose of bullying female employees, such as Paula Jones, into sex, are very serious. Personally, I don't believe they are grounds for impeachment, but I wasn't asked.

As for Kennedy, I presume that was a reference to Chappaquiddick (sp?) That was a long time ago, and it happened in Massachusetts, where Kennedys are revered, and was hushed up. The dead woman's parents, and probably some others, were paid off, and the whole incident was buried. Kennedy committed some serious offenses, maybe felonies, but got off with a slap on the wrist. Almost anybody else would have gone to prison.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

In that sense, it's not just about Newt or about perjury, but about the attitude that the right is right and the left are all immoral unpatriotic crazy people.

That's a good point, SJ. It seems as if since the Nixon years, to oppose the Administration means you are "Unamerican" and a "Traitor to your country" whenever the Conservatives are in office. It's a tactic they've used for a long time, that still fools the a certain segment of the American people.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Do we really have to keep calling Monica the fat chick?


My point about hypocrisy isn't so much about Newt, but about the right in general, who are more than happy to forgive their own for the same sins that they condemn in the left. In that sense, it's not just about Newt or about perjury, but about the attitude that the right is right and the left are all immoral unpatriotic crazy people.

I agree about Monica. At the time she sucked off Clinton, she wasn't fat anyhow. She was a bit zoftig, and quite sexy. Later, she got chubby, but I would not call her fat, even then.

Personally, I believe most politicians are hypocrites, who condemn lying and cheating and stealing, while doing as much of it as they can get away with. That would apply to politicians anywhere on the spectrum. In this regard, they are all alike.

 

[mckai777]

I'd appreciate a little slack.

I'd appreciate you keep your slacks on.

 

[rgraham666]

The fist time I read the words "Contract With America" I read them as "Contract On America".

 

[Boxlicker101]

The fist time I read the words "Contract With America" I read them as "Contract On America".

It said "Contract WITH America" although some smart-alecks referred to it the way you just did. It was a good ploy, and a good idea too. Democrats, especially Liberal Democrats had controlled Congress almost all the time since WW2, and were tending to think of it as their own province, and they could do as they wanted, rather than as their constituents wanted them to do. Politicians thought they were above the law, so new laws were passed that said they weren't. The welfare state was, if not dismantled, returned to what it was meant to be. Stupid programs were eliminated, and the country was, generally speaking, better off.

Of course, after a few years in power, the Republicans bacame as corrupt as their Democratic predecessors, but it was nice while it lasted.

 

[rgraham666]

I guarantee you, Box, the reductions in the 'welfare state' only affected the people who needed its support.

Same thing happened here in Ontario. People like me got fucked up the ass. The cheats simply adapted and cheated the new system.