Oh Look!! A War!

[keeblercrumb]

Hope it doesn't involve anyone we know......

While the Edward's Affair and the US Women's Saber team's dramatic victory are all certainly worthy of their own threads, not to mention Midget fucking, I thought I would throw this little tidbit from the news out and see how much of the shit sticks, so to speak.

It seems our presumptive ally and NATO aspirant, the currently but not for long independent nation state of Georgia, (No, not the "Bulldog" or Ray Charles one), is being attacked by armor, infantry and air forces from our somewhat estranged ally, the Russian Federation.

Fortunately, it seems that only a few thousand have died so far, but on the other hand everyone is still shooting, so the statistics may be out of date. The winning times of the 400 medley down to the thousandth of a second are available on the CNN website, however, if that will help in your appreciation of the severity of the fighting.

Luckily, our President is fully engaged on this outrageous state of affairs, taking time between Olympic events to issue a statement asking for the clock to be run backwards a few days just for that region....

Under the personal direction of VP Cheney (whose suddenly has time available on his travel calendar) , the Department of Defense has begun fiddling with "Way-Back" machine produced under a no-bid 6.2 Billion Dollar contract to Mr. Peabody Inc. International, a division of Raytheon Corp. to execute the President's directions, and possibly execute a few GITMO detainees as well, if an authorizing memo can be found which can be Xeroxed with a new justification.

There are ironies to be found here, of course. Starting with the fact that the Russians are acting out the principals initiated under Former President and Not a Racist Bill Clinton in Kosovo which allows for the arbitrary intervention of Third Party Super Power into the internal disputes of Sovereign States whenever we deem that the majority of citizens of some portion of said Sovereign State want independence.

This policy was subsequently adopted by the Bush administration which supported the aspirations for Independence of Kosovo under the so-called Condi Manifesto which states that “this traditional ownership thing is really old and you just need to get over it besides we have a lot of troops there already and na-na-neh-na-na!!”

The Nation of Georgia, which has their own proud tradition of producing such luminaries as Joseph Stalin, actually seems to have believed all the words of support they have been receiving from the Bush Administration on this area of contention. While there is no excuse for such gullibility, of course, one is forced to acknowledge some mild US responsibility for the current death and destruction currently being heaped upon them.

Ironies? Oh yes… the Georgian quid-pro-quo for this “strong” support from the US, was to furnish Georgian troops in the American’s own misguided foreign dalliance in Iraq. Seems those boys are needed back home at the moment and the US has graciously offered them a lift but that may have to wait until the Russians finish mopping up the joint and re-build the airbases they destroyed yesterday.

If there was a hair in a pimple on Georges ass, he should have left the Olympics two days ago and flown to Tbilisi. Upon arrival in Air Force One, issuing a statement to the Russians to the effect of “You want to bomb something, bomb MY ass, Motherfucker”. I actually think this might have worked, except the Russian are probably aware that the US Military is currently about 150% over committed fighting wars nobody wants or needs.

Okay…. Rant over. Forget it. They are only foreigners being killed and maimed anyway. Besides Georgia was really a traditional part of Russia… so it is only right they should occupy it. Again.

Where were we?? Oh yeah... Can't say I ever fucked a saber carrying midget who might be carrying John Edward's baby.....why do you ask?


-KC

 

[starrkers]

Sorry, brain in "huh, say that again" mode today. So half of that didn't sink in properly.

But, doesn't Georgia have oil? I would've thought that'd get Georgie's interest, quite apart from the similarity of his and the country's names...

 

[scheherazade_79]

The biggest problem I have with the situation so far is that the story on Russia Today is vastly different from the story being reported on the world's other news stations.

So who's telling the truth? Is this the result of deliberate Western destabilization of the area, or did the Ruskies just wait until the world had its back turned before regaining some old land? They gave the South Ossetians Russian passports a long time ago...

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Sorry, brain in "huh, say that again" mode today. So half of that didn't sink in properly.

But, doesn't Georgia have oil? I would've thought that'd get Georgie's interest, quite apart from the similarity of his and the country's names...

Well maybe I had too much coffee this morning.... you are to be forgiven getting confused.

The Russians can be admired for timing all this to coincide with the olympics knowing the shallowness of the American Media's attention span.... and the Administration's attention span as well.

Everything in the Caucasus potentially involves "oil" ......http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/georgia/oil-politics.htm

but only tangentially. This is really about Russia re-claiming their lost empire... using much the same rationale as Hitler did in the Sudentenland.... that's my take anyway.

My rant goes only to the point that nobody seems to notice or give a fuck.

-KC

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Here's a more detailed analysis of the situation.

Rumple Foreskin

==

Has Georgia Overreached in Ossetia?
By TONY KARON
Sat Aug 9, 3:30 PM ET


The victims, of course, are the civilians of Georgia and its breakaway South Ossetia region, caught in the escalating battle between the Georgian military and South Ossetian separatists and their more powerful Russian backer. Hundreds are alleged to have been killed in two days of heavy fighting that has shown no sign of abating by late Saturday, and thousands more are confronting the resulting humanitarian crisis. But the battle that began to rage in Georgia as world leaders were treated to the pyrotechnics of the Beijing Olympics' opening ceremony may be the most serious challenge to the post-Cold War balance of power since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Georgia and South Ossetia have been squared off in an uneasy peace for more than a decade, now, since the region broke away from Georgia in the early '90s, following its independence from the Soviet Union. After a protracted war that killed around 1,000 people and displaced thousands more ethnic Georgians from the territory, Georgia was compelled to sign a cease-fire agreement that left South Ossetia - a tiny mountainous territory a few football fields smaller than Rhode Island - effectively autonomous, but unable to secure recognition by the international community. Still, Russia has protected the region, providing finance, military protection and even passports, and has used South Ossetia's secession, together with that of Abkhazia, another breakaway region of Georgia, as leverage against Tblisi's desire to join NATO. Moscow sees Georgia's move towards NATO as part of a strategy of hostile encirclement of Russia by Western powers, and when the Western alliance enabled Kosovo's secession from Serbia earlier this year despite the fact that its independence is not recognized by the United Nations, many analysts expected Russia to retaliate by further stoking the fires of secession in Georgia.

Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili has a different agenda - he won election in 2004 on promise to recover the breakaway territories, and to join NATO. So closely has he courted the U.S. that Georgia today has 2,000 troops in Iraq, the third-largest contingent after the U.S. and Britain, although Tbilisi has now indicated it will have to bring at least half of them home to deal with the security crisis in South Ossetia. But the Georgian leader's latest actions will be read by some as designed to force the hand of NATO members reluctant to press the issue of handing membership to Georgia for fear of provoking a Russian backlash. So, after a couple of days of skirmishing along the unofficial border between his forces and those of the separatists, the Georgian leader launched a full-blown invasion whose aim, his government said, was to "restore constitutional order," that is, control by the central government, in South Ossetia. Plainly, the offensive was a gamble, because Saakashvili should have had little doubt about Moscow's readiness to defend the separatists. Moreover, NATO officials had repeatedly warned the Georgian government against launching any attempt to resolve the dispute through military means. Still, he pressed forward.

On Friday, Georgian forces shelled South Ossetian population centers and launched a ground invasion deep into the territory. By noon, news reports announced that they had immobilized much of the opposition and had taken control of South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali. The city came under attack by aircraft, artillery and armor, and South Ossetia officials claimed that more than 1,000 people had been killed. Still, the lightning offensive appeared to have put Georgia back in charge of the breakaway region, and made good on Saakashvili's campaign promise. The offensive touched off wild celebrations in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. "Georgians are by nature extremely patriotic and this event has galvanized them together," David Womble, National director of WorldVision, a Christian humanitarian NGO with operations in the country, told TIME. At one point, he said, thousands and thousands of cars filled the streets of the capital, honking their horns and with their passengers waving Georgian flags. Says Womble, "It was as if Georgia had won the World Cup and was celebrating."

Russia's initial response was to convene an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, hoping to pass a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire between Georgia and South Ossetia. But the Russian draft resolution was contentious. The United State and others objected to language that appeared to exempt Russia from condemnation over the use of force. Russia is frequently blamed for destabilizing the region to its own benefit and using its peacekeeping force as a cover for maintaining a military presence in the region. The Security Council failed to agree on a resolution, and the following day, as Russian media began to report casualties among Russian troops and citizens in South Ossetia, a stern-faced President Dmitri Medvedev appeared on prime-time television to make a chilling call to arms: "I am obligated to defend the life and honor of Russian citizens, wherever they may be," he said. "We will not let those responsible for the death of our people go unpunished." And with that, Russian armor and artillery began pouring in to South Ossetia, and its aircraft began bombing Georgian positions. By Saturday, there were conflicting reports over which side controlled South Ossetia, but Russian planes had pounded the nearby Georgian town of Gori, in raids that Georgian officials said had killed 60 people.

Whether or not the effect was intended, Moscow now appears to be using Saakashvili's strategic overreach to teach a brutal lesson not only to the Georgians, but also to other neighbors seeking to align themselves with the West against Russia. Saakashvili is appealing for Western support, based on international recognition of South Ossetia as sovereign Georgian territory. "A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia," he said, calling for Western intervention. But given NATO's previous warnings, its commitments elsewhere and the reluctance of many of its member states to antagonize Russia, it remains unlikely that Georgia will get more than verbal support from its desired Western protectors. Saakashvili appears to have both underestimated the scale of the Russian backlash, and overestimated the extent of support he could count on from the U.S. and its allies. The Georgian leader may have expected Washington to step up to his defense, particularly given his country's centrality to the geopolitics of energy - Georgia is the only alternative to Russia as the route for a pipeline carrying oil westward from Azerbaijan. But Russia is not threatening to overrun Georgia. Moscow claims to be simply using its military to restore the secessionist boundary, which in the process would deal Saakashvili a humiliating defeat.

Although its outcome is yet to be decided, there's no win-win outcome to the offensive launched by Georgia with the goal of recovering South Ossetia. Either Saakashvili wins, or Moscow does. Unless the U.S. and its allies demonstrate an unlikely appetite for confrontation with an angry and resurgent Russia in its own backyard, the smart money would be on Moscow.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

The biggest problem I have with the situation so far is that the story on Russia Today is vastly different from the story being reported on the world's other news stations.

So who's telling the truth? Is this the result of deliberate Western destabilization of the area, or did the Ruskies just wait until the world had its back turned before regaining some old land? They gave the South Ossetians Russian passports a long time ago...

Nobody gave me final authority on what is real in this world, but I would say the evidence strongly supports the latter..... The Russians claim they were only "reacting" to Georgian intervention.... yeah... right! Even the US military can't react THAT fast with armor, artillery and air attacks... Certainly not the Russian military.

You may remember Georgia complaining that the Russians were getting ready to do this a month ago.... Russia denied it and then shot down the drones which were providing the evidence of their intended invasion.

Russia Today is a government mouthpiece..... In the words of Bob Dylan..."Propaganda all is phony".... Believe no more and a litttle less then you would believe a Press Release from the White House.

By the way.... I frequently eat breakfast across from the little weasely Wally Cox guy that does their "editorials"..... It would be a bad way to start the day but I would love just to slap that guy sometimes......

Might have a little trouble with my next visa, however.

-KC

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Here's a more detailed analysis of the situation.

Rumple Foreskin ........


Although its outcome is yet to be decided, there's no win-win outcome to the offensive launched by Georgia with the goal of recovering South Ossetia. Either Saakashvili wins, or Moscow does. Unless the U.S. and its allies demonstrate an unlikely appetite for confrontation with an angry and resurgent Russia in its own backyard, the smart money would be on Moscow.

I bow to this far more insightful, if less entertaining, analysis of the situation.

Objective news on this is hard to come by.... which is also kind of my point...

Thanks.. Rumple...

-KC

 

[TxRad]

Maybe someone should point out that it's 4 am and this is a porn site. War news is three doors down.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Maybe someone should point out that it's 4 am and this is a porn site. War news is three doors down.

You're right.

And it is early afternoon here in Moscow....but I forget sometimes...

Quite right about the porn site thing..... Politics and war are wholly inappropriate and otherwise unknown here.....

Back to fucking midgets....



Seriously, Tex... It just bugged the shit outa of me we could be chatting along about all kinds of extraneous shit.... and no one appeared to notice a truly significant world event taking place.....

As I noted in my opening salvo..... I am certainly not denigrating the importance of John Edwards love child, nor the success of our women's saber team.... all worthy for consideration here..... if not as specifically relevant as midget fornication to a porn site... just seeking a little reality and perspective check...

But lets forget it..... I'm sure George will sort it all out....

-KC

 

[Liar]

But lets forget it..... I'm sure George will sort it all out....

-KC

He's busy.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c187/TStatic/photocms.jpg

 

[TxRad]

You're right.

And it is early afternoon here in Moscow....but I forget sometimes...

Quite right about the porn site thing..... Politics and war are wholly inappropriate and otherwise unknown here.....

Back to fucking midgets....



Seriously, Tex... It just bugged the shit outa of me we could be chatting along about all kinds of extraneous shit.... and no one appeared to notice a truly significant world event taking place.....

As I noted in my opening salvo..... I am certainly not denigrating the importance of John Edwards love child, nor the success of our women's saber team.... all worthy for consideration here..... if not as specifically relevant as midget fornication to a porn site... just seeking a little reality and perspective check...

But lets forget it..... I'm sure George will sort it all out....

-KC

There in lies the problem. Most normal people come to a porn board to get away from reality. i know that sounds a little weird but it's true.

if i wanted to read about or discuss a war I'd be somewhere that caters to that type stuff. What the fuck do politics and wars have to do with write or reading good or even bad porn?

Uh sorry, i think I got carried away. i hate that i do that sometimes but then again most people don't listen anyway. they're over fucking midgets or some such shit.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

There in lies the problem. Most normal people come to a porn board to get away from reality. i know that sounds a little weird but it's true.

if i wanted to read about or discuss a war I'd be somewhere that caters to that type stuff. What the fuck do politics and wars have to do with write or reading good or even bad porn?

Uh sorry, i think I got carried away. i hate that i do that sometimes but then again most people don't listen anyway. they're over fucking midgets or some such shit.

Contnuing this self imposed threadjack.... (After all... I AM the "Threadmaster" )

I used to really wonder about that when I used to just lurk here to see how an old friend was doing... I could never understand all the political stuff...
and now.... Now it is just about all I do.... weird.....

I tried to start a thread when I first came on here about the "sex in the news" which I thought would be of interest here.... The politics of Sex and Pornography, if you willl....

But no..... only the banal, the empathetic, the highly charged polarized political crap... once in a great while something about writing porn....

More like the corner pub... really.... Nothing wrong with that, I suppose... but...

Hmmmmm Food for thought.... Tex....Thanks....

-KC

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

My first reaction was, "That's so 20th Century!"

This is not that complicated. Russia has never gotten over its brutal conquest and occupation for hundreds of years by the Mongols/Tatars, and that's been its "governance" model ever since. They're bloody-minded, bloody-handed imperialists and they want their empire back! They'll take every opportunity to nibble off a little piece here and a little piece there, and over the next century we can expext a steady stream of these kinds of stories.

Any questions?

 

[oggbashan]

This seems to be a re-run of the 1930s.

The Russians have enclaves of ethnic Russians in several states that were part of the Soviet Union. Encouraging "our people" to revolt against their non-Russian rulers is the same as the methods adopted by Nazi Germany with Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Whatever Georgia did would be wrong. Occupying the rebel area of South Ossetia would be "aggression against ethnic Russians"; not occupying it in the face of massive military build-up by the Russians in North Ossetia would be "betraying the Georgian people".

I think both sides have miscalculated badly.

Og

 

[trysail]

KC-
If you don't think those interested in energy aren't keenly aware of what's going on in Georgia and its potential ramifications for transit of Caspian petroleum (the BTC pipeline [1MMBOPD] runs through South Georgia), you'd be mistaken.

Here's a sample of one from about 200 posts on the subject (from an energy message board that I follow):

"If Europe allows Georgia to be crushed, they deserve to be screwed time and again by the Russians. About 10 times in the last two years Russia has hijacked various European countries, using energy as a weapon. If those gutless pussies allow Georgia to fall under Russian control, than they deserve the fate of having Russians have them by the balls over every dispute."​

There are a lot of would-be military geniuses and armchair warriors out there and they are doing some serious saber-rattling. As is frequently the case in situations like this, facts are hard to come by, but it appears that Mikheil Saakashvili may have made a serious miscalculation.

It's quite possible that a lot of people need to take a "chill pill" before things get irretrievably out of control.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

This seems to be a re-run of the 1930s.

The Russians have enclaves of ethnic Russians in several states that were part of the Soviet Union. Encouraging "our people" to revolt against their non-Russian rulers is the same as the methods adopted by Nazi Germany with Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Whatever Georgia did would be wrong. Occupying the rebel area of South Ossetia would be "aggression against ethnic Russians"; not occupying it in the face of massive military build-up by the Russians in North Ossetia would be "betraying the Georgian people".

I think both sides have miscalculated badly.

Og

Why has Russia miscalculated? They roll in, impose a brutal occupation, and that's the end of it. Who's going to stop them? Who's going to do anything more than diplomatic finger waving? Maybe we'll ban imports of Stoly for a few months - "More for me" says Ivan Sixpackski.

Here's a sample of one from about 200 posts on the subject (from an energy message board that I follow):

"If Europe allows Georgia to be crushed, they deserve to be screwed time and again by the Russians. About 10 times in the last two years Russia has hijacked various European countries, using energy as a weapon. If those gutless pussies allow Georgia to fall under Russian control, than they deserve the fate of having Russians have them by the balls over every dispute."​

Get used to it, "gutless pussies." I wouldn't use that characterization in this instance, though. "Prudent realists" more like.

 

[trysail]

Get used to it, "gutless pussies." I wouldn't use that characterization in this instance, though. "Prudent realists" more like.

I wouldn't use that phrase either, Rox. I cited that particular message to illustrate the fact that there are a lot of "hot bloods" out there— not to mention would-be manipulators and meddlers who would like nothing better than to get other people to do some heavy lifting for them. I like your phrase ("Prudent realists") better.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I can understand KC's interest, he's in Moscow. But what about the rest of us? Is there some real belief that even if the US military wasn't tied down in Iraq that we'd somehow launch an Expeditionary Force onto the Eurasian mainland to relieve Georgia? Excuse me? Fight another war at the end of a 10,000 mile long supply train? Against a nuclear power? Hellooooo . . .

I thought the relief we all felt when Rumsfeld 'resigned' was about having some realism returned to the Pentegon's civilian leadership. 'Ally' or not, Georgia is a looooong ways outside our sphere of influence.

 

[Equinoxe]

This seems to be a re-run of the 1930s.

The Russians have enclaves of ethnic Russians in several states that were part of the Soviet Union. Encouraging "our people" to revolt against their non-Russian rulers is the same as the methods adopted by Nazi Germany with Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Whatever Georgia did would be wrong. Occupying the rebel area of South Ossetia would be "aggression against ethnic Russians"; not occupying it in the face of massive military build-up by the Russians in North Ossetia would be "betraying the Georgian people".

I think both sides have miscalculated badly.

Og

South Ossetia isn't populated by ethnic Russians, though, it's populated by ethnic Ossetes, who of course also live in North Ossetia (which is in Russia).

 

[trysail]

(Fair Use Excerpt)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agJ7Ci0VP0pQ&refer=home
Russian Kisses Georgian
By Grant Clark and Dan Baynes

Aug. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Michael Phelps took the first step on his quest for a record eight titles at the Beijing Olympics, as Georgian and Russian athletes embraced after winning medals in women's shooting...

...China secured gold medals in men's weightlifting and women's diving, judo and shooting, with the 10-meter air pistol going to Guo Wenjun ahead of Russia's Natalia Paderina...

Paderina, an army officer, embraced and kissed bronze medalist Nino Salukvadze of Georgia after they received their medals, a symbolic gesture as Russian warships headed toward Georgia in an escalation of a conflict over the South Ossetia region.

``People should sit down and talk instead of going into war,'' Salukvadze, who was awarded the Soviet Union order of merit in 1989, told reporters. ``People don't start confrontation and wars. Politicians do.''

Stay in Games

The International Olympic Committee said today that officials from Georgia and Russia had confirmed both teams will stay at the Games...

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Russia doesn't need an army anymore. They have The Valve.

We so much as threaten them and they just shut off the gas to Western Europe.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

I can understand KC's interest, he's in Moscow. But what about the rest of us? Is there some real belief that even if the US military wasn't tied down in Iraq that we'd somehow launch an Expeditionary Force onto the Eurasian mainland to relieve Georgia? Excuse me? Fight another war at the end of a 10,000 mile long supply train? Against a nuclear power? Hellooooo . . .

I thought the relief we all felt when Rumsfeld 'resigned' was about having some realism returned to the Pentegon's civilian leadership. 'Ally' or not, Georgia is a looooong ways outside our sphere of influence.

Tell that to the Georgians.......

Here is the deal.... as noted above.... The Georgians took it upon themselves to attempt a re-occupation of the S. Occestia..Did the Russian "set them up"? Probably....

I love this "pragmatic realist" shit... and way outside of our "sphere of influence".... Where the fuck where you guys when we invaded Iraq???? Coulda used a little "pragmatic realism" and "shere of influence"then...

Oh wait..... Never mind if it is "right" or "wrong".... only if we CAN do it!!
I get it!!

This administration either should have influence over Georgia AND/OR Russia but we have managed to establish influence nowhere...... When George took office we WERE the ONLY superpower in the world.... Remember???

Stupid Georgians anyway.... As I said in my original rant... serves them right to be so gullible to believe George when he says anything...... let alone "We will support you"....

In your wildest dreams, do you think Georgia would take on Russia unless they thought we would stand behind them???? Fools.....

And now we will stand by and watch Ukraine go under.... more "pragmatic realism" and "sphere of influence"....

I am waiting to hear WHY George is enjoying the Olympics.;. when his silly ass should be on a plane to Tblisi or Moscow or both....... Our weakass response is pathetic.

You gotta love hawks when they morph into pigeons....

Wake me up when it is next January...... I need a drink.

-KC

 

[Noor]

(Fair Use Excerpt)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agJ7Ci0VP0pQ&refer=home
Russian Kisses Georgian
By Grant Clark and Dan Baynes

Aug. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Michael Phelps took the first step on his quest for a record eight titles at the Beijing Olympics, as Georgian and Russian athletes embraced after winning medals in women's shooting...

...China secured gold medals in men's weightlifting and women's diving, judo and shooting, with the 10-meter air pistol going to Guo Wenjun ahead of Russia's Natalia Paderina...

Paderina, an army officer, embraced and kissed bronze medalist Nino Salukvadze of Georgia after they received their medals, a symbolic gesture as Russian warships headed toward Georgia in an escalation of a conflict over the South Ossetia region.

``People should sit down and talk instead of going into war,'' Salukvadze, who was awarded the Soviet Union order of merit in 1989, told reporters. ``People don't start confrontation and wars. Politicians do.''

Stay in Games

The International Olympic Committee said today that officials from Georgia and Russia had confirmed both teams will stay at the Games...

When Putin and Bush were seen world wide chatting with each other instead of watching the amazing Olympic opening ceremonies, I kept thinking of Nero playing while Rome burned.... I suspect the military action by Russian was planned and coordinated to start when the games did.

 

[Varian P]

Another aspect of Russia's war on Georgia:

Georgia Under Online Assault

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Keebler, just what do you think our response should be? You obviously disagree with the Iraq incursion (as did I from the beginning, my response was that winning the war would be a snap but winning the peace would be very, very hard) but think that we should get involved with Georgia? I'm sorry, but being out here on the Pacific Rim, I don't see just what is at stake here. Just what is our stategic interest in Georgia? Enlighten us.