OFFBEAT : ZIMBABWE
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Laurel
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Regardless of whether the Zimbabwe government should be nationalizing some of the land, the way it's currently being handled is barbaric and unacceptable. From what I've read, agriculture is one of, if not the, leading industries in Zimbabwe. If this goes on much longer, I have no doubt that some sort of civil war will break out. It's sad because instead of moving toward self-sufficiency, they appear to be moving toward self-destruction.
Laurel, you are a wise sage! How refreshing to hear someone from "outside" actually express concern at the events, without excusing them!
Having lived most of my life on a farm in South Africa, you tend to get a whole different perspective, and a way deeper understanding of the problem.
The thing is; yes there have been injustices perpatrated over the centuries, yes people lost their land, etc. But look at some of the things they gained. I'm certainly not saying colonialism was the panacea for Africa. What I am saying, though, is that one has to look at the whole picture objectively.
What is of particular concern in Zimbabwe is the blatant incitement to racial violence by a beleagured president. To me, the situation has disturbing overtones of Hitler in Germany.
Once again, a small group of people, an economically vital group, is being turned into scapegoats for a multitude of problems. Once again that group is a tiny minority. Once again that group is defined by race. Once again the very government which should be protecting that group is actively encouraging their persecution. And once again, the world looks at their balance sheet, says "hell, we've got nothing invested there", and turns a blind eye!
I think I'll get off my soapbox now that I've delivered my morning diatraibe!
Having lived most of my life on a farm in South Africa, you tend to get a whole different perspective, and a way deeper understanding of the problem.
The thing is; yes there have been injustices perpatrated over the centuries, yes people lost their land, etc. But look at some of the things they gained. I'm certainly not saying colonialism was the panacea for Africa. What I am saying, though, is that one has to look at the whole picture objectively.
What is of particular concern in Zimbabwe is the blatant incitement to racial violence by a beleagured president. To me, the situation has disturbing overtones of Hitler in Germany.
Once again, a small group of people, an economically vital group, is being turned into scapegoats for a multitude of problems. Once again that group is a tiny minority. Once again that group is defined by race. Once again the very government which should be protecting that group is actively encouraging their persecution. And once again, the world looks at their balance sheet, says "hell, we've got nothing invested there", and turns a blind eye!
I think I'll get off my soapbox now that I've delivered my morning diatraibe!
G
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The things that are hapenning here in Zim are bad for the whole region. This man, Mugabe, is going to destroy this country while everyone just watches. If it was a white person doing this to a black minority say in australia, everyone would be up in arms about it. why is it diferent in our case?
Hi Zuluboy,
I have been working for the past week or two on putting an opinion together for the SA government on the issue - I am part of a team of 4 people. Its a bad situation. The problem is that there is a treaty with exists between the SADAC (southern african developing communities) in which all states in the region have pledged their commitment to human rights and the rule of law.
Now the opinion which we gave highlighted the blatant violations of rights - both under the Zim constitution as well as under international law. Our advice to the government was to enforce Zim's committment to the SADAC treaty.
Here is the hard part to understand. All Heads of State met to discuss the crisis. Our very own fucking president disregarded the advice given to him and elected to pledge his 'tacit' support for Mugabe's disregard of the law.
I am so disillusioned right now that I am considering a move away from this place. Never before have I felt so hopeless - never before have I seen how meaningless a constitution can be when it exists without a determination and committment to enforce its compliance.
And so next month I am hopefully off to Columbia University for a conference - I am thinking of staying there for a while - I'll see. If any of you will be in New York then please join me for a beer (thats a serious offer).
I have been working for the past week or two on putting an opinion together for the SA government on the issue - I am part of a team of 4 people. Its a bad situation. The problem is that there is a treaty with exists between the SADAC (southern african developing communities) in which all states in the region have pledged their commitment to human rights and the rule of law.
Now the opinion which we gave highlighted the blatant violations of rights - both under the Zim constitution as well as under international law. Our advice to the government was to enforce Zim's committment to the SADAC treaty.
Here is the hard part to understand. All Heads of State met to discuss the crisis. Our very own fucking president disregarded the advice given to him and elected to pledge his 'tacit' support for Mugabe's disregard of the law.
I am so disillusioned right now that I am considering a move away from this place. Never before have I felt so hopeless - never before have I seen how meaningless a constitution can be when it exists without a determination and committment to enforce its compliance.
And so next month I am hopefully off to Columbia University for a conference - I am thinking of staying there for a while - I'll see. If any of you will be in New York then please join me for a beer (thats a serious offer).
Howdy, SB! Welcome back!
You know, when Mbeki succeeded Mandela, I thought "okay, here we go. Now theres hope for Africa". I mean, the man has a degree in economics, is very much a technocrat, and is obviously very intelligent.
On my two trips home since he took power, I become cautiously optimistic that SA was finally on the right track. I mean, this last time (Dec), I actually drove through the center of JHB for the first time in four tears!
Then, along comes this Zim thing. Oh, for the Madiba days again! Maybe he should come back from Rwanda and show Thabo how to deal with the Black Hitler.
What exactly does he think his support (whatever happened behind the scenes 0- if anything) for Bob is doing to international investor confidence? Oh, that's right; he doesn't care because all Africa's woes are caused by (20-year) ex-colonial powers, white conspirators, etc, etc. So much for his great African rennaissance being based on facing up to problems realistically.
On my way to getting off my soapbox, I'll conclude by saying my parents, sister & her two sons applied on Thursday for Australian residence. What else are we supposed to do, wait until we get our throats cut?
This is the thanks my dad gets after spending eleven years as a PFP and DP member of parliament, fighting for human rights?
All I can say is : "Nkosi sikele iAfrika", because she's going to need it!
You know, when Mbeki succeeded Mandela, I thought "okay, here we go. Now theres hope for Africa". I mean, the man has a degree in economics, is very much a technocrat, and is obviously very intelligent.
On my two trips home since he took power, I become cautiously optimistic that SA was finally on the right track. I mean, this last time (Dec), I actually drove through the center of JHB for the first time in four tears!
Then, along comes this Zim thing. Oh, for the Madiba days again! Maybe he should come back from Rwanda and show Thabo how to deal with the Black Hitler.
What exactly does he think his support (whatever happened behind the scenes 0- if anything) for Bob is doing to international investor confidence? Oh, that's right; he doesn't care because all Africa's woes are caused by (20-year) ex-colonial powers, white conspirators, etc, etc. So much for his great African rennaissance being based on facing up to problems realistically.
On my way to getting off my soapbox, I'll conclude by saying my parents, sister & her two sons applied on Thursday for Australian residence. What else are we supposed to do, wait until we get our throats cut?
This is the thanks my dad gets after spending eleven years as a PFP and DP member of parliament, fighting for human rights?
All I can say is : "Nkosi sikele iAfrika", because she's going to need it!
Zuluboy, its interesting to hear comments. I never thought that I would feel this disillusioned - its very sad for me.
I remember you saying that your dad was an MP for the DP - and now you say that he was with the PFP before. He will obviously know Van Zyl Slabbert pretty well. Now I spent last week at his farm - he has a farm in Swaziland. And so, Zuluboy, thanks to the web - the world seems even smaller now than ever.
I remember you saying that your dad was an MP for the DP - and now you say that he was with the PFP before. He will obviously know Van Zyl Slabbert pretty well. Now I spent last week at his farm - he has a farm in Swaziland. And so, Zuluboy, thanks to the web - the world seems even smaller now than ever.
Expertise
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Sorry if this sounds harsh but Mugabe is a fucking Hitler clone in this regard. It is such an obvious effort to deflect attention from yet another corrupt regime who an uneducated self-interested populace has allowed to stay in power. Unfortunately there are far too many cases of this in the world. Most governmets in Africa could not manage a three man rush to a four man outhouse until it comes to their leaderships personal finances. This is why I have little or no sympathy for the populace of those countries who allow these people to stay in power. Famine, deprivation and economic colapse are inevitable (sadly) until the people of these nations jump at least into the 20th century and take some responsibility for the future of their respective nations. Until they do they should be left alone to play out there time in the best traditions of Darwinism
Hey Expertise,
A little while ago I would slated a Darwinian type debate when talking about people - because it devalues the rights which we attach to the very essence of being human - that is to say that as 'humankind' the game plan should be to help the meek, not allow them to die.
But, Mugabe's regime in its blatant violation of human rights seems to waive some of the protection which the same system offers. What I am trying to say is: if you disregard human rights in one context then you can't call for their protection in another.
Zuluboy, your family seem to have made the right decision to leave. Africa seems too brutal a stage on which to be - life here is too fucking cheap, especially when your skin is lilly white.
A little while ago I would slated a Darwinian type debate when talking about people - because it devalues the rights which we attach to the very essence of being human - that is to say that as 'humankind' the game plan should be to help the meek, not allow them to die.
But, Mugabe's regime in its blatant violation of human rights seems to waive some of the protection which the same system offers. What I am trying to say is: if you disregard human rights in one context then you can't call for their protection in another.
Zuluboy, your family seem to have made the right decision to leave. Africa seems too brutal a stage on which to be - life here is too fucking cheap, especially when your skin is lilly white.
Expertise, you're quite right - up to a point. When you take into account the fact that past governments (both white & black) have made an unwritten policy of keeping the masses as uneducated as they could, so as to facilitate the "unthinking" mentality of which you speak, it becomes a little clearer how these despots stay in power. Throw into the mix a firmly-rooted superstition (which is always exploited); tribalism (as strong today as 500 years ago); and the African belief that the "strongest rules", and you begin to understand that it's not so easy to get rid of a corrupt regime. Especially not when the secret police are woven into the very fabric of society, the press is controlled, the courts (even if independant) are ignored, and elections and the constitution are abused at the whim of a tiny elite.
What gets to me is that, when it was a white minority doing this to a black majority in most southern African countries, the world screamed blue murder. Now, it's a black minority doing far worse to a black & white majority, and no-one does anything! Double-standards, or what?
SB, maybe the HNP, CP & co were right? Deep down I know they weren't, but it would be so easy to share their view!
What gets to me is that, when it was a white minority doing this to a black majority in most southern African countries, the world screamed blue murder. Now, it's a black minority doing far worse to a black & white majority, and no-one does anything! Double-standards, or what?
SB, maybe the HNP, CP & co were right? Deep down I know they weren't, but it would be so easy to share their view!
Expertise
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Heard comments from the leader of Zimbabwe's "Veterans Association" on the CBC last night. I'm paraphrasing but they were to the effect that whites were usurpers who have no right to "their" land and no right to be in Africa at all. "They have no standing in Zimbabwe or Africa" So much for dialogue. Shades of kristalnacht (sorry for the spelling) I may be off base by saying this but how can the people of this nation not see what a tragic farce this situation is. How can they allow it. Truly pathetic.
G
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well
G
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well now you white people are gettingg what you deseve. comrade mugabe and comrade mbeki are correct when they say africa is for us only it is our land you stolen it from us and now we will get it back!now we punish you for everything like apartheid
Expertise
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Yeah Frank sure... you can hang (literally) with your comrades and talk tough...then come crying for humanitarian aid six months from now. Dont expect it you iliterate moron racist fuck. When the people are crying for bread they'll soon be crying for Mugabes head ...on a stick. Have a nice time
Hey, Expertise. Thanx for dealing with "him who will remain nameless" for me! He has this irritating habit of dribbling absolute crap!
The thing is, though, they'll not be begging in six months; they already are! But didn't you know, it's all our fault!
Just one thing, the Brits have demanded elections go ahead, and violence & farm invasions stop as a prerequisite to the aid. I think they're of the opinion that if they impose sanctions right now, it'll turn "comrade Bob" into a martyr, which is what he wants....
The thing is, though, they'll not be begging in six months; they already are! But didn't you know, it's all our fault!
Just one thing, the Brits have demanded elections go ahead, and violence & farm invasions stop as a prerequisite to the aid. I think they're of the opinion that if they impose sanctions right now, it'll turn "comrade Bob" into a martyr, which is what he wants....
Expertise
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Further to some of my earlier posts. Apparently 8000 or so people demostrated in the streets yesterday. Led by Morgan Tsvangiari and the Movemment for Democratic Change. Maybe there are people in that country that realize what a farce Mugabe has made of that country in his 20 years in power....or maybe they are just another tribal based group fighting for their peice of the pie. It has become very easy to become cynical when faced with issues from that part of the world. Sad really.
Expertise
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Further to some of my earlier posts.There were something like 8000 anti-government demonstrators in the streets yesterday. Led by Morgan Tsvangiari and the Movement for Democratic Change. Maybe there is reason for hope, maybe there is a significant portion of the populace that realizes Mugabe is a worthless tyrant who has done nothing for their nation in the twenty years he has been in power. Or maybe this is just another tribally based African movement looking for their peice of the pie instead of the greater good. The entire continent breeds cynicism in me. Sad really.
Expertise
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Hey ZuluBoy no problem I have zero tolerence for idiots like that. Can't say as I would lose a tremendous amount of sleep if Mugabe became a "martyr" ... as long as it was in the best traditions of martyrdom ... public stoning, being burned at the stake ... you get the idea. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord ... Payback is a medevac sayeth Expertise
Perhaps I am somewhat off the subject, but (I know, there's always a but) the situation in Africa as a whole has been in the news here in the US lately. The Clinton administration has declared that the danger of depopulation due to AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa (as well as South Asia) creates a national security threat to US interests in those regions. The Center for Disease Control (it may be some other government agency, but that sounds right to me) has some very chilling extrapolations about how governments will break down if 25-30% of the populations succumb to AIDS. I would be interested to hear what someone with more intimate knowledge of those areas thinks of this danger.
Do any of you think that the current governments can survive if they lose 25-30% of their populations? And, is there anything that they can do to reverse what seems to be an impossible situation? Given the corruption, tribalism, and divisive politics, is there any way to keep order in a society that appears on a course for self-destruction?
skibum
[This message has been edited by skibum (edited 05-02-2000).]
Do any of you think that the current governments can survive if they lose 25-30% of their populations? And, is there anything that they can do to reverse what seems to be an impossible situation? Given the corruption, tribalism, and divisive politics, is there any way to keep order in a society that appears on a course for self-destruction?
skibum
[This message has been edited by skibum (edited 05-02-2000).]
Hey, Skibum
As to your AIDS scenario. It's certainly a concern when you have a look at some of the numbers: Zambia 75% HIV; Zimbabwe 65% (army 90%); some parts of South Africa up to 60% HIV. Certainly, when you look at somewhere like Zambia with a population of 10 million, then consider up to 7.5milllion may be dead within 10 years, you've got to wonder what's going to happen.
On the other hand, you look at the gross population explosion in these same countries, and you have to think that maybe AIDS is Mother Natures' way of thinning out the population (just like the plague, etc).
As to whether or not these countries governments can survive, in most cases it really doesn't matter, as they're not doing their job anyway!
As to your AIDS scenario. It's certainly a concern when you have a look at some of the numbers: Zambia 75% HIV; Zimbabwe 65% (army 90%); some parts of South Africa up to 60% HIV. Certainly, when you look at somewhere like Zambia with a population of 10 million, then consider up to 7.5milllion may be dead within 10 years, you've got to wonder what's going to happen.
On the other hand, you look at the gross population explosion in these same countries, and you have to think that maybe AIDS is Mother Natures' way of thinning out the population (just like the plague, etc).
As to whether or not these countries governments can survive, in most cases it really doesn't matter, as they're not doing their job anyway!
