Obsession with Red Heads

[LWulf]

Um no.
There are two major groups known for being traditional redheads, yes, but those groups are the Celtic and Germanic people. The primary gene for causing red hair that you would associate with traditional gingers--pale skin, fiery etc.-- was an environmental adaptation that originated in southern Norway and was spread across northern Europe via Viking conquests, and the taking of slaves during those campaigns.

There are other genes that cause the single mutation of just causing red hair that can be found in people of Middle Eastern and Asian decent, but those are different mutations than the one seen in Europe. Hence different traits associated with that mutation in those peoples ie. being born with darker skin tones ect.

Modern humans are not the only ones to develop a red hair mutation. Some Neanderthals in Northern Europe also developed a red hair mutation, but that again, was different genetic markers than the marker found in gingers today, and was caused by environmental factors.

Fun facts:
In the middle ages: red hair was seen as a mark of moral degeneration and hyper sexuality, hence why all of the goddess of love depreciated during the Renaissance were sporting some ginge.

Um, yes.

I(f you read further on your wiki-supported reiteration, you'd have read

Red hair is also found amongst the Ashkenazi Jewish populations. In European culture, prior to the 20th century, red hair was often seen as a stereotypically Jewish trait: during the Spanish Inquisition, all those with red hair were identified as Jewish. In Italy, red hair was associated with Italian Jews, and Judas was traditionally depicted as red-haired in Italian and Spanish art. Writers from Shakespeare to Dickens would identify Jewish characters by giving them red hair. The stereotype that red hair is Jewish remains in parts of Eastern Europe and Russia.​

However my "claim" was based on books (made from paper!) that I've read and artwork I've seen in museums that date back to the middle ages, (and my supposition was based on my opinion (that "Jewish redheads tan" unlike the Irish/Scottish variety)).

 

[EverLux]

Um, yes.

I(f you read further on your wiki-supported reiteration, you'd have read

Red hair is also found amongst the Ashkenazi Jewish populations. In European culture, prior to the 20th century, red hair was often seen as a stereotypically Jewish trait: during the Spanish Inquisition, all those with red hair were identified as Jewish. In Italy, red hair was associated with Italian Jews, and Judas was traditionally depicted as red-haired in Italian and Spanish art. Writers from Shakespeare to Dickens would identify Jewish characters by giving them red hair. The stereotype that red hair is Jewish remains in parts of Eastern Europe and Russia.​

However my "claim" was based on books (made from paper!) that I've read and artwork I've seen in museums that date back to the middle ages, (and my supposition was based on my opinion (that "Jewish redheads tan" unlike the Irish/Scottish variety)).

You had said that Scots/Irish and jewish people were the two major groups of redheads. The former has a higher-than-average population of redheads, and the latter is historically portrayed as redheads in the arts in a negative way (which is all that your Wiki quote supports).

Those are two very different types of "major," so your original statement didn't make much sense.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

wiki what now?
“Regardless of the definition, the frequency of red hair is highest in Ireland (10 to 30%) and Scotland (10 to 25%), followed by Wales (10 to 15%), Cornwall and western England, Brittany, the Franco-Belgian border, then western Switzerland, Jutland and southwest Norway. The southern and eastern boundaries, beyond which red hair only occurs in less than 1% of the population, are northern Spain, central Italy, Austria, western Bohemia, western Poland, Baltic countries and Finland.

Overall, the distribution of red hair matches remarkably well the ancient Celtic and Germanic worlds. It is undeniable too that the highest frequencies are always observed in Celtic areas, especially in those that remained Celtic-speaking to this day or until recently. The question that inevitably comes to many people's minds is: did red hair originate with the Celtic or the Germanic people ?

Southwest Norway may well be the clue to the origin of red hair. It has been discovered recently, thanks to genetic genealogy, that the higher incidence of both dark hair and red hair (as opposed to blond) in southwest Norway coincided with a higher percentage of the paternal lineage known as haplogroup R1b-L21, including its subclade R1b-M222, typical of northwestern Ireland and Scotland (the so-called lineage of Niall of the Nine Hostages). It is now almost certain that native Irish and Scottish Celts were taken (probably as slaves) to southwest Norway by the Vikings, and that they increased the frequency of red hair there.”

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml#Celto-Germanic

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

You had said that Scots/Irish and jewish people were the two major groups of redheads. The former has a higher-than-average population of redheads {snip}

“Scotland and Ireland have the highest proportion of people with red hair,” he says. The myth may be the result of confounded expectations: “There’s a higher percentage of Jews with red hair than you might expect from the fact that they came from the Middle East and most people in the Middle East have dark hair,” says Abel, though the number appears to be no higher than the approximately four percent of the world’s population who are endowed with red tresses."

http://www.momentmag.com/the-biggest-jewish-genetic-myths-of-all-time/

 

[EverLux]

“Scotland and Ireland have the highest proportion of people with red hair,” he says. The myth may be the result of confounded expectations: “There’s a higher percentage of Jews with red hair than you might expect from the fact that they came from the Middle East and most people in the Middle East have dark hair,” says Abel, though the number appears to be no higher than the approximately four percent of the world’s population who are endowed with red tresses."

http://www.momentmag.com/the-biggest-jewish-genetic-myths-of-all-time/

I think you're agreeing with me here, but I'm working on ten hours of sleep in three days, so my brain ain't what it oughta be...

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

I think you're agreeing with me here, but I'm working on ten hours of sleep in three days, so my brain ain't what it oughta be...

lol, yes lovely, I was providing a quote to help support you.

*looks at clock and realizes time*
Sleep is for the weak.

 

[EverLux]

lol, yes lovely, I was providing a quote to help support you.

*looks at clock and realizes time*
Sleep is for the weak.

Oh, yay Much appreciated.

Also, if this keeps up for another day or two, I will be very, very weak, and sleep will most certainly be for me.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

During the middle ages, if you were a redhead, it was assumed you were Jewish.

I have no issue with playing devil's advocate, and researching opposing views, but I have found nothing so far to support this.

Source?

 

[EverLux]

I have no issue with playing devil's advocate, and researching opposing views, but I have found nothing so far to support this.

Source?

You must have missed it, JR. He already listed his sources.

However my "claim" was based on books (made from paper!) that I've read and artwork I've seen in museums that date back to the middle ages, (and my supposition was based on my opinion (that "Jewish redheads tan" unlike the Irish/Scottish variety)).

Books, especially those made from paper, are always indisputable, by virtue of having words n such.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

Oh no I saw the tantrum, but was curious all the same.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Purely anecdotal, but my sil's family is Jewish from Crimea. They count at least five red-headed women and one red-headed man among the members I know. I know a few other redheaded Jews from the region. All also have fair and freckled skin, and all do burn in the sun.

The combination of clinal and stochastic human variation usually undermines any generalization about human populations.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And also why Many Jews portrayed in the arts at that time had red hair (e.g. Shylock in Merchant of Venice.)

Oddly enough, although he was often played as a redhead, his name literally means "white hair" .

(Shakespeare probably never met an actual Jew, or at least not one who'd have admitted to it.)

 

[LWulf]

You had said...

I know very well what I said. If you are going to interrupt a conversation, try to keep up with what each person says. For reference, I've posted below what I was replying to.

...What I was remarking on was LWulf's claim that "During the middle ages, if you were a redhead, it was assumed you were Jewish."...

I have no issue with playing devil's advocate, and researching opposing views, but I have found nothing so far to support this.

Source?

Beyond the wiki comment with it's attached sources? No, I don't carry a bibliography of literature, reference books and artwork I read or viewed 30 years ago.

However, I'd love to see the sources for your rebuttal that substantiates your "claim" otherwise. You seem so sure of yourself, you must have a plethora of references handy.

You seem like one of those lazy types, considering I already posted the section of wiki and wiki ALWAYS has sources, which you could have looked up yourself, so I'll do your legwork for you:

1. Abel, Ernest L. (2001). Jewish genetic disorders: a layman's guide. Jefferson, N.C: McFarland. p. 229. ISBN 0-7864-0941-X.
2. The Jewish Persona in the European Imagination: A Case of Russian Literature, By Leonid Livak, (Stanford University Press 2010).
3. Judas's Red Hair and The Jews, Journal of Jewish Art (9), 31–46, 1982, Melinnkoff R.M
4. Shakespeare and the Mediterranean: the selected proceedings of the International Shakespeare Association World Congress, Valencia, 2001, Theatres and Performances, (University of Delaware Press, 2004), page 40
5. Jewish hearts: a study of dynamic ethnicity in the United States and the Soviet Union, SUNY Press, 2001, Betty N. Hoffman, page 106

Books, especially those made from paper, are always indisputable, by virtue of having words n such.

Apparently you've never heard of e-books, which are more readily disputable.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

Beyond the wiki comment with it's attached sources? No, I don't carry a bibliography of literature, reference books and artwork I read or viewed 30 years ago.

However, I'd love to see the sources for your rebuttal that substantiates your "claim" otherwise. You seem so sure of yourself, you must have a plethora of references handy.

You seem like one of those lazy types, considering I already posted the section of wiki and wiki ALWAYS has sources, which you could have looked up yourself, so I'll do your legwork for you:

1. Abel, Ernest L. (2001). Jewish genetic disorders: a layman's guide. Jefferson, N.C: McFarland. p. 229. ISBN 0-7864-0941-X.
2. The Jewish Persona in the European Imagination: A Case of Russian Literature, By Leonid Livak, (Stanford University Press 2010).
3. Judas's Red Hair and The Jews, Journal of Jewish Art (9), 31–46, 1982, Melinnkoff R.M
4. Shakespeare and the Mediterranean: the selected proceedings of the International Shakespeare Association World Congress, Valencia, 2001, Theatres and Performances, (University of Delaware Press, 2004), page 40
5. Jewish hearts: a study of dynamic ethnicity in the United States and the Soviet Union, SUNY Press, 2001, Betty N. Hoffman, page 106

Apparently you've never heard of e-books, which are more readily disputable.

Anything read 30 years ago, as far as genetics is concerned, is obsolete.

Wiki is never to be accepted as a reputable source, and your argument for using it to support your case here, is a prime example of why you should never rely on it. This article twists the words of the sources you have provided, and none of these sources speak to the idea that any significant proportion of any Jewish population is higher than the global average--unlike the Celtic and Germanic groups-- or that having red hair meant you were assumed to be Jewish during the Middle Ages.

I already quoted from Ernest Able myself--yes, I researched a source and quoted directly from it--and found nothing from his works to support your claims in your original post.
As for painting Judas with red hair, or Shakespeare's character appearing with red hair on stage, we've been over that, and neither is an argument to support either of your claims in your original post.
I took the liberty of browsing through 'The Jewish Persona in the European Imagination: A Case of Russian Literature,' in E-Book format, and found the red hair reference to be along the lines of the Judas painting or of Shylock; the use of red hair was to demonstrate overall wickedness, because antisemitism. That does not support your original post.
'Jewish hearts: a study of dynamic ethnicity in the United States and the Soviet Union,' again, reviewed in in E-Book format, contains references referring to red hair, but those passages were personal anecdotes based on the antisemitic zeitgeist of the time that each person lived. That does not support your original post.

I find it sad that you resort to tantrums and insults when an augment does not go your way.
But, seeming how your own bio states: "Currently, my "reality module" is broken. I think it's probably better to keep light topics with me... " I'll take your own advice of how best to approach you, and stop responding to you now.

 

[MissJeane]

I'm not a red head myself. But I have been with some red headed women through out the year I have to agree there is something about them. In the bedroom and out.

 

[Ezrollin]

We tend to think of the Jews as a race, but it also spread a religion. Could it be that the red heads are of the Jewish religion but not necessarily of the Jewish race ? I'm too busy trying to re-educate myself so I can edit my own stories (got two approved so far) to research it.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

We tend to think of the Jews as a race, but it also spread a religion. Could it be that the red heads are of the Jewish religion but not necessarily of the Jewish race ? I'm too busy trying to re-educate myself so I can edit my own stories (got two approved so far) to research it.

Judaism is a religion, and race is a social construct. Red hair is a recessive trait, so as long as both parents carry the recessive gene, the offspring have the potential to exhibit the trait regardless of ethnicity or religion.

 

[TwistedAngel23]

red heads...

I'm a red head and I have a temper to go with it lol

 

[archon1980]

Redheads

I am a red head and I find it disheartening that gingers don't hook up, still, we see redhead numbers are not declining as a report that came out a few years ago claimed. Our chicks are hot(redheads I mean). I always hated my hair until I realized that people are willing to pay a lot of money to get what I have naturally.. Vive le...gingers!