Now that Germany...

[p_p_man]

has told Blair that they won't be invading Iraq with the US and it looks like the rest of mainland Europe will follow suit, where does this leave our Tony?

The European consesus is that any military action should be under the UN flag.

To me that makes a lot of sense. So far Bush is conducting this "war" against terrorism as though it's America vs The World. Even though the world would be just as happy as GWB to see a result.

Nobody really trusts Bush. His track record is abysmal when it comes to sticking by his allies and so if he goes into Iraq it looks as though it will have to be without the support of the European Union.

Puts Blair in a spot though, doesn't it?

Which way will he jump this time?

 

[SINthysist]

Tony will add up the numbers

Think about the last few wars and realize that he has allies.

Are they German?
Are they French?
Are they Italian?
Are they Russian?
Are they ...

Well, you get the point, eh, p_p_?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Tony will add up the numbers

Think about the last few wars and realize that he has allies.

Are they German?
Are they French?
Are they Italian?
Are they Russian?
Are they ...

Well, you get the point, eh, p_p_?

No.

 

[Jellybeangirl]

Bush needs to proceed w/ caution...how he acts now will affect future relations w/ Europe. It would behoove him to have the support of the U.N.

 

[SINthysist]

It would behoove him to have the support of California, Florida, New Jersey, and Texas.

Since we have become a Democracy and not a Republic, they are they only people he has to answer to.

 

[p_p_man]

Oops!

After starting the thread I fell asleep at the keyboard...

Jellybeangirl is right. Bush needs to get broader international support for his actions. It does him no good trying to side-step the UN (even though relations aren't too good between the two of you at the moment) because if things go belly up the rest of Bush's allies can instantly withdraw from any American solo effort on the grounds that they think the UN should become more involved.

This will leave Bush up a creek without a paddle.

Also SINthysist, Bush has shot himself in the foot over this steel tariffs business. Following is a small extract from yesterday's Guardian and it shows the seriousness of Bush's position at home if the EU carries out it's threat.

"Brussels is planning to hit imports from key states targeted by the Republicans in this year's mid-term elections in revenge for President Bush's decision to slap heavy tariffs on European steel producers.

Amid signs of an escalating transatlantic trade war, a senior European official warned Washington yesterday that a failure to offer compensation for the $2bn in lost steel sales would trigger retaliatory tariffs from Brussels on American products.

Top of the list would be citrus fruit from Florida - the state which after accusations of electoral foul play won Mr Bush the 2000 presidential election - and American steel from Ohio, West Virginia and Pennsylvania, all seen as key battlegrounds for the Senate in the November elections"

Which brings us back to Blair. By following Bush's lead so blindly and without any hesitation or consultation he firmly tied himself to Bush's apron strings. But with the UK's and his own desire to integrate even further with Europe by adopting the single currency, Blair has given himself a hard choice to make.

Well to him it's hard. To me it's not.

Dump Bush and kiss and make up with Europe...

 

[Lost Cause]

Fuck Europe and what they think! We should pull our military bases out..along with the nukes. Let the EU fuck each other over trade, and other trival stuff. After the Europe crashes, we would be in a prime negotiating position. Most Europeans would flee the EU just as fast as they fled East Berlin!
AND President Bush does not have a "track record" of walking away from our allies.
Geez, the biggest joke in Europe is the cohesiveness of the EU!
The UN (global welfare in practice) should be relocated to Brussels, it's taking up valuable real estate here.

 

[p_p_man]

Fuck Europe and what they think! We should pull our military bases out..along with the nukes. Let the EU fuck each other over trade, and other trival stuff. After the Europe crashes, we would be in a prime negotiating position. Most Europeans would flee the EU just as fast as they fled East Berlin!
AND President Bush does not have a "track record" of walking away from our allies.
Geez, the biggest joke in Europe is the cohesiveness of the EU!
The UN (global welfare in practice) should be relocated to Brussels, it's taking up valuable real estate here.

So I suppose you're one of those misguided people, as well as having an off centre grasp of current affairs, who thinks America can go it alone over everything. Well Bush thought that before the Afghan bombing started and refused offers of help from all around the world.

Then what?

He had to go back, cap in hand and ask for that help after all.

When NATO comes to an end and the EDF comes into full affect most American troops will be withdrawn from Europe. So you'll have your wish there. The only problem is that you will have to ask permission to use European bases in future. So probably a deal will be made. And I can't see the deal being in America's favour.

But as for the elections this year, Bush probably didn't realise that targeted tarrifs against American goods in certain areas crucial to the Republicans, would be an option Europe could take.

He does now. Let's see how he wriggles around on this one.

And Blair?

The jury's still out on him.

 

[sch00lteacher]

We don't want to pull our shit out of the EU to quickly. Read your history. How long does it take for those dorks over there to start fighting each other?

Just because it is '2002' doesn't mean that history won't repeat itself. It hasn't been that long since Germany tried to take it all. They could do it again.

But, if we go to war with Iraq, and they don't help... I think we should let the buggers minus England fend for themselves. And I think we should take a serious look at unpaid debts from the Marshall Plan.

England has always stood with us. I think the fact that they stand off by themselves helps a good bit.

Also, our military is too small. To continue this is going to require us to find more troops somewhere. The EU is a good start, but then, well is it 'drafty' in here?

 

[Andreina]

i have this theory that p_p is in reality Tony Blair or Gordon Brown and here to seek advice from us.

oi.... Tony.... how about some sponsorship for us litizens?

Halo

 

[p_p_man]

We don't want to pull our shit out of the EU to quickly. Read your history. How long does it take for those dorks over there to start fighting each other?

Just because it is '2002' doesn't mean that history won't repeat itself. It hasn't been that long since Germany tried to take it all. They could do it again.

But, if we go to war with Iraq, and they don't help... I think we should let the buggers minus England fend for themselves. And I think we should take a serious look at unpaid debts from the Marshall Plan.

England has always stood with us. I think the fact that they stand off by themselves helps a good bit.

Also, our military is too small. To continue this is going to require us to find more troops somewhere. The EU is a good start, but then, well is it 'drafty' in here?

We're always fighting over here. We've had over 2000 years of fighting each other. Even now we're fighting over the best way to go forward with a united and integrated Europe. The difference this time is that nation isn't bombing nation.

For possibly the first time in Europe's history the people are beginning to think with one mind. From Greece to Germany and from Ireland to Austria we can all blame Brussels for our problems.

There's nothing like a good moan at one organisation to bond a people together!

I think Europe should be able to defend herself more effectively and shake off this reliance of America having the finger on the button. As the RDF evolves and the former East European Communist states are accepted into the EU that military strength can only get stronger, if only through necessity.

And as for unpaid debts for the Marshall Plan, I'll do a Bush. You pay your dues to the UN and we'll look at what Europe owes America. Less any losses we may make over the forthcoming trade war of course.

Once this present business is dealt with, I MEAN BIN LADEN MR PRESIDENT!, then I can see the UK walking a tightrope between America and Europe. Coming down eventually on the European side.

The world is changing and re-grouping. There's no doubt about that. The UK takes it's place in a unified Europe, Australia and New Zealand take their places in the SE Aisian Trading Bloc and America takes its place in...

Where? NAFTA?

I don't know about draft schOOlteacher but there's definitely a cold wind blowing up.

 

[bluespoke]

i have this theory that p_p is in reality Tony Blair or Gordon Brown and here to seek advice from us.

oi.... Tony.... how about some sponsorship for us litizens?

Halo

LDWAH

How could you!

Gordon Brown as p_p_man.

Gordon Brown is a Scot, p_p_man is......... well p_p_man!


And Schoolteacher, you should know your ally is Britain, not England

 

[Jimi]

Gordon Brown is a Scot, p_p_man is......... well p_p_man!

And Schoolteacher, you should know your ally is Britain, not England

Thanks, Blue - the correction came better from you than it would from another transAtlantic Colonial Celt -

By the way, we need a St Andrew's Day or a St. Columba's Day, methinks..

 

[WriterDom]

Oh boy, an army of Europeans wearing those gay blue UN helmets. The Iraqis surrender quicker than the French. Throw the French in, and we'd have a cluster fuck of white flags.

The sticking point with Iraq is getting the Saudis on board. We don't need Germany's help. Well, it might force an end to the war 30 minutes sooner.

If Clinton had a pair, we would have gone in when they kicked the inspectors out instead of depleting our cruise missiles in a two day show of farce. At least Blair understands the threat of a nuclear Iraq.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

There was an interesting column in the April issue of the Atlantic Monthly by Walter Russell Mead entitled "The Case Against Europe," in which he articulates some of the reasons why many in the US think of Europe in much the same way as Sheriff Andy of Mayberry thought of Deputy Barney Fife--as a puny, neurotic, good-hearted soul, whose vanity and poor judgment kept him from being given any serious responsibilities.

While I don't agree with the author, he does represent US attitudes in such a way that might clarify some things for our European friends.

 

[p_p_man]

If Clinton had a pair, we would have gone in when they kicked the inspectors out instead of depleting our cruise missiles in a two day show of farce. At least Blair understands the threat of a nuclear Iraq.

If George's daddy had the nerve, and the sense, he would have gone in when the Iraqis were fleeing back to Baghdad towards the end of Desert Storm. He should never have left it for his son to clear up the mess.

Especially as he must have known that George is even less in touch with the reality of things than he was.

How's that saying go? The son is father to the man?

In this case though the two are interchangeable. You can't see the join.

 

[bored1]

Fuck Europe and what they think! We should pull our military bases out..along with the nukes. Let the EU fuck each other over trade, and other trival stuff. After the Europe crashes, we would be in a prime negotiating position. Most Europeans would flee the EU just as fast as they fled East Berlin!
AND President Bush does not have a "track record" of walking away from our allies.
Geez, the biggest joke in Europe is the cohesiveness of the EU!
The UN (global welfare in practice) should be relocated to Brussels, it's taking up valuable real estate here.

Ill second that ......p_p man just cant wait until Bush fails......The funny thing is none of the EU will support any action if the Germans dont! They already have taken over without firing a shot..........The truth is all the Eurotrash will be celebrating behind closed doors once Sadddam is gone.......But on second thought perhaps the US should pull all its troops out of Europe including the "peacekeepers" in the former Yugoslavia as I recall Clinton said they wouldnt be their more than a few years......Yea thats what the US should do ........Then watch as all hell breaks lose.............

 

[p_p_man]

Ill second that ......p_p man just cant wait until Bush fails......The funny thing is none of the EU will support any action if the Germans dont! They already have taken over without firing a shot..........The truth is all the Eurotrash will be celebrating behind closed doors once Sadddam is gone.......But on second thought perhaps the US should pull all its troops out of Europe including the "peacekeepers" in the former Yugoslavia as I recall Clinton said they wouldnt be their more than a few years......Yea thats what the US should do ........Then watch as all hell breaks lose.............

You're right I can't. I think of Bush as being the most dangerous and irresponsible leader on the planet. But I've said that enough times now for it to stick in people's minds.

The other thing bored1 is that you're still thinking of Europe as a collection of separate states whereas we're working towards the formation of a new country.

It just ain't true that the EU will not support any action if the Germans don't. For once there are no historical examples to draw on. We are making history.

The UK is involved in the bombing of Iraq along with the US as we both patrol the no-fly zones. That's now. Who's to say what will happen tomorrow when Blair is asked to partner a full scale invasion of Iraq.

To us there are more important issues at stake than helping out the US in it's time of, not so much need, but its time of showing its strength.

And you must get rid of this idea that America is all powerful. It isn't and never has been. It is the single most powerful country in the world, for the moment, but Superman it ain't.

Much of the agreements passed down to other countries from America (I can't say in all honesty they were negotiated) have been accepted because in the past there has been no other choice. You know, the big kid on the block spreading largesse (or buying his mates, whatever).

But, and this is definitely where Bush needs a crash course in current affairs, the world has moved on and new alliances have been formed. Most people in the UK for instance think this "special relationship" which is meant to exist between our two countries is as dead as a dodo and should be consigned to the trash can.

It's a matter of bye bye America, it's been good to know you but we've all got to grow up sometimes.

 

[WriterDom]

If George's daddy had the nerve, and the sense, he would have gone in when the Iraqis were fleeing back to Baghdad towards the end of Desert Storm.

I'm sure, you, like the majority of democrats in our congress, were against taking any military action against Iraq after the invasion of Kuwait. There was no support from the coalition to remove Sadamn Insane. And had he been held to the inspection program and not been allowed to give Clinton "the bird," we wouldn't need a military solution now.

 

[p_p_man]

I'm sure, you, like the majority of democrats in our congress, were against taking any military action against Iraq after the invasion of Kuwait.

It may surprise you but no.

I was all for taking Baghdad and getting rid of Saadam whilst we had the chance. It might have been just a European thing but we thought George's daddy was crazy not to finish the job.

Desert Storm went beyond politics.

"I wouldn't be such a bloody fool to start in the first place, but once started I wouldn't be an even bigger bloody fool to stop it half way through" Most quoted man: Winston S Churchill.

 

[bored1]

As I recall the UN did not sanction the removal of Saddam in 1991......They should have done it then........The dems in congress didnt support any action at all....that asshole Algore traded his vote for personal political gain........To say the Bush is the most dangerous man on the planet is amazing....My vote goes to Saddam.....I hope when the Germans take over and dominate your little EU they get to pick the uniforms for the Deployment force......Nobody had better uniforms than the Germans

 

[p_p_man]

I hope when the Germans take over and dominate your little EU they get to pick the uniforms for the Deployment force......Nobody had better uniforms than the Germans

Hey we agree on something!

Yeah German uniforms are neat...

 

[bored1]

Hey we agree on something!

Yeah German uniforms are neat...

LOL

 

[Guest]

Re: Tony will add up the numbers

Think about the last few wars and realize that he has allies.

Are they German?
Are they French?
Are they Italian?
Are they Russian?
Are they ...

Well, you get the point, eh, p_p_?

Britains allies ?
German no
French yes
Italian yes
Russian yes
American yes when they finally got there.Britain had to hold the fort first though.

 

[Guest]

Fuck Europe and what they think! We should pull our military bases out..along with the nukes. Let the EU fuck each other over trade, and other trival stuff. After the Europe crashes, we would be in a prime negotiating position. Most Europeans would flee the EU just as fast as they fled East Berlin!
AND President Bush does not have a "track record" of walking away from our allies.
Geez, the biggest joke in Europe is the cohesiveness of the EU!
The UN (global welfare in practice) should be relocated to Brussels, it's taking up valuable real estate here.

you know fuck all about whats going on in Europe. So keep your bigoted American mouth shut. You only come on here to shit.